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Broncos Offense has actually gotten better since StL game.

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  • TonyR
    replied
    Originally posted by 2KBack View Post
    Not only that, striving to be a complete football team and not a one man show will benefit the team in the post Manning era.
    I don't disagree. The problem is that Peyton Manning is part of that "complete football team" equation. Sometimes a complete football team needs to throw the ball to win. If Med's point about his arm is correct, it's possible that we can't rely on that.

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  • huh??
    replied
    Originally posted by oubronco View Post
    All they need is a whole lot of this

    This ALWAYS a makes my day!

    Rep just cuz...

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  • TonyR
    replied
    Originally posted by fontaine View Post
    What's so frightening about running the football more effectively, expecting the defense to play well and Manning being effective when he throws the ball less than 30 times a game?

    Generally speaking, if your QB has to throw the ball 40+ times in a playoff game, then it's not really a good sign.
    Go back and read Med's post again, particularly the part about the Cincinnati game. Broncos fell behind, had to pass to get back in the game. More passes means more problems for Manning. Sometimes this is going to happen, particularly against good teams. And hey, guess what?!? You play good teams in the playoffs. Manning is this team's bread and butter, and if he can't be relied upon I think the implications are pretty clear. Of course, perhaps not for you since you're one of those denial people I mentioned. If nothing else, I like your optimism!

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  • fontaine
    replied
    Originally posted by 2KBack View Post
    Not only that, striving to be a complete football team and not a one man show will benefit the team in the post Manning era.
    Exactly. Even with a 100% healthy Manning throwing the ball all over the place, it still wouldn't have given us a better chance to win in New England and/or against a top notch defense like Seattle.

    Hell those two teams want Denver to throw the ball 40+ times a game right into the strengths of their defense.

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  • JManekia
    replied
    Everyone is just used to Manning throwing 50 times a game to bail out the team like he used to in Indy. Now that he can't, it scares everyone.

    Its about time the rest of the team is held accountable, namely defense, special teams, offensive line, etc.

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  • 2KBack
    replied
    Originally posted by fontaine View Post
    What's so frightening about running the football more effectively, expecting the defense to play well and Manning being effective when he throws the ball less than 30 times a game?

    Generally speaking, if your QB has to throw the ball 40+ times in a playoff game, then it's not really a good sign.
    Not only that, striving to be a complete football team and not a one man show will benefit the team in the post Manning era.

    Leave a comment:


  • fontaine
    replied
    Originally posted by TonyR View Post
    Yes, it certainly does. At least for some of us. Many are still in denial. The frightening thing is that this raises the question not only about this teams' chances in these playoffs, but whether or not this team can go into next season counting on Peyton Manning.
    What's so frightening about running the football more effectively, expecting the defense to play well and Manning being effective when he throws the ball less than 30 times a game?

    Generally speaking, if your QB has to throw the ball 40+ times in a playoff game, then it's not really a good sign.

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyR
    replied
    Originally posted by Mediator12 View Post
    ...but it does all fit with what we see.
    Yes, it certainly does. At least for some of us. Many are still in denial. The frightening thing is that this raises the question not only about this teams' chances in these playoffs, but whether or not this team can go into next season counting on Peyton Manning.

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  • CEH
    replied
    It's time for the defense and all its high price FAs and futrure high priced FAs (hello Von) to step up and be a complimentary piece to this team
    but the offense can't put the defense into a bad situation like they did in Cincy and Stl.

    The refs still scare the hell out of me. They make a horrible call and send a letter the next day with "our bad , sorry we screwed you" but oh well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tombstone RJ
    replied
    this would explain the lousy play calling IMHO, that is, how the Broncos cannot seem to fuse a viable run game with a viable pass game and use play action effectively, thanks Mediator...

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  • Mediator12
    replied
    Originally posted by mwill07 View Post
    one metric I like to look at is points per drive. This was brought to my attention last year in the Charger playoff game - it's not really about scoring points, it's about scoring more than your opponent. Both teams have a roughly equal number of possessions - within two anyways. So, what's really important is what you do with your possessions that count.

    It doesn't really matter if a team can score in :30, or if it takes a 15 play, 8:00 drive, both drives end in a TD. The former leads to high-scoring shootout games, the later leads to low scoring, grind it out games. Both are good, and both can be dominant, it's not really fair to say that the former is better than the latter, so long as points are going on the board.

    So, points per drive is probably the most important offensive metric to look at. The Broncos finished 2014 with 2.43, 4th in the league behind Green Bay (2.88), New England (2.59), and Dallas (2.47). League average is 1.93.

    What is interesting is that the Broncos offensive efficiency went up after the Rams game. Despite the lack of high end of game scores, the Broncos were actually scoring at a higher rate than before.

    Heading into the StL game, The Broncos were scoring at a 2.51 points/drive clip. After StL, they went run-heavy and points/drive actually went up to 2.66.

    further, prior to the Rams game, the Broncos punted on average 4.9 times a game. After the Rams game, they punted 3.3 times per game.

    I know it's easy to be concerned with the offense scoring in the mid 20s for consecutive weeks, especially after being spoiled with last years offense and multiple 40+ point games early on, but the fact is that the new run-centric offense is actually more efficient.
    Yards per drive is actually more accurate over the course of a season, but nothing is accurate in a vacuum. I will also state that DEN was #1 in Offensive YPD and in Points Per Drive (PPD) until the outlier of the STL game that has caused DEN to adjust their strategy and incorporate the run heavy and traditional offense over the Spread no huddle with 11 personnel.

    DEN has decided to play the game differently on both Offense and Defense since that game. The results have been mixed and there is nothing definitive that can be extrapolated from the Stats alone here. It's just entirely too small a sample size and too many conflicting variables that can not explain the Why's of the matter. The ONLY real thing these stats show, is DEN has played in this obvious to see new style of play.

    As for Peyton's throwing motion, it is not that it has changed on the surface per say. It is that he has to strain much more than he did to start the year to throw the ball. Nerve damage and Overuse injuries mean the muscle can not fire properly all the time, but it can still fire and fire properly. So, sometimes it works just fine and he can pitch the ball 50 yards down the field and on a dime. And, sometimes it does not fire properly and you get a mess of a throw.

    That is how fine the line is between a big play and an underthrown interception. It also would explain why DEN is throwing the ball less and less when teams stack the box on Peyton. A healthy Peyton Manning used to drool at the opportunity to get teams out of 2 deep coverage's and throw the ball downfield. Now, he does not audible out of most runs even when the defense is so obviously stacked against the play.

    It also explains why DEN wants to try and limit the amount of passes he is throwing per game and daily. These type of injuries get worse with more use. The only time DEN really has chucked it around was in CIN and we all saw how throwing the ball 40+ times worked out. DEN had zero offense in that first half trying to minimize Peyton's throws to only 15 attempts. When he threw 30 in the second half, he was brilliant for awhile until he made some really poor throws and then made some even more poor decisions. It seems he gets more inconsistent with his accuracy passing the ball with more use.

    This is a gross oversimplification, but it does all fit with what we see. Peyton is just not right the more he throws the ball. It also shows in how inaccurate the ball is when it gets there. Peyton has never had the laser rocket arm and can not be accused of always throwing a tight spiral. However, no matter the ugliness of the throw it was right where it should be, on time, and catchable. That does not describe 50% of his throws since the STL game.

    There are also a ton more conflicting variables to consider. The timing IS being thrown off more by the opposition and they are shading him to much more difficult throws. The reads playing with a heavy set are different than the spread. JT not being able to really play has allowed teams to get more creative in pass coverage against the outside WR's as Wes Welker has been a total non-factor due to all kinds of reasons as well. The OL has been inconsistent to be kind.

    So, while I do see a lot of issues with the way Peyton is throwing the ball, I also see a lot of mental issues for the whole offense as well. Changing to a new scheme halfway through the year, has not been without problems.

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  • Powderaddict
    replied
    I don't know if Manning's thigh is injured and effecting his throws, but to say that your thigh muscles are irrelevant to throwing is plain wrong.

    I tend to agree with the thought it has more to do with pressure, and his ability to plant his feet more than anything.

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  • pricejj
    replied
    Basically, since the Offensive change, the Broncos have had about a half-drive less per game, and averaged about the same points per drive. Scoring has been reduced about 2.5 ppg. The reduced pace should have only led to about a 1.25 ppg point reduction. Nothing to be concerned about.

    Probably a real good thing they've slightly reduced their pace, otherwise the injury list might be a lot longer. Also a good thing that we're no longer scared to run the ball.
    Last edited by pricejj; 01-05-2015, 11:42 PM.

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  • pricejj
    replied
    Offensive production only. Not counting kneel-downs, end-of-game.


    Manning No-huddle Offense:
    1. Colts - 10 drives, 31 points
    2. Chiefs - 7 drives, 24 points
    3. Seattle - 13 drives, 18 points
    4. Cardinals - 14 drives, 41 points
    5. Jets - 12 drives, 24 points
    6. 49ers - 10 drives, 42 points
    7. Chargers - 10 drives, 35 points
    8. Patriots - 13 drives, 21 points
    Total - 89 drives, 236 points (2.65 ppd), 11.13 dpg, 29.5 ppg


    Run-first Offense:
    11. Dolphins - 8 drives, 39 points
    12. Chiefs - 12 drives, 29 points
    13. Bills - 10 drives, 24 points
    14. Chargers - 9 drives, 22 points
    15. Bengals - 14 drives, 21 points
    Total - 53 drives, 135 points (2.54 ppd), 10.6 dpg, 27 ppg


    Odd games :
    9. Raiders - 14 drives, 41 points
    10. Rams - 11 drives, 7 points
    16. Raiders - 12 drives, 40 points




    Total season - 179 drives, 459 points (2.56 ppd), 11.19 dpg, 28.69 ppg



    ppd = points per drive
    dpg = drives per game
    ppg = points per game
    Last edited by pricejj; 01-05-2015, 11:36 PM.

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  • PatriotsDidIt
    replied
    Originally posted by Powderaddict View Post
    Yeah, Im sure you don't use major leg muscles to shuffle, plant, and drive the ball downfield.

    It's all ankle muscles, right?
    You are correct. Planting your feet and generating power from the legs up is essential to accuracy and a good throwing motion. The "inner thigh" people keep referring to are your adductor muscles. An injury to your adductors will affect your stability and movement which in turn will definitely affect throwing motion, so yes the "inner thigh" is important. If you have an opinion otherwise you are ****ing wrong because this is fact. Now for the more important part, the post about him changing his motion and overusing his "inner thigh" is bull****. Peyton has an amazing throwing motion and the only reason for his crappy accuracy has been from not planting his feet, mostly from being pressured. He can still put the ball on the money and far down field when he has a clean pocket and can step into his throw.
    Last edited by PatriotsDidIt; 01-05-2015, 11:32 PM.

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