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  • #91
    Originally posted by DENVERDUI55 View Post

    There is this stupid theory going around that you cant win with a top QB making top money. These same guys were saying that's what makes Keesums deal so good even though he was making enough money that the difference between him and the top paid guy not Jimmy G was 1 player in FA. There are people around here that believe Denver can win a title with Flacco. The truth is Denver is closer to picking top 5 again than a title.

    Wilson was never available but it would have been worth selling the farm for.

    Another point the anti big QB contract guys fail to bring up. When Denver signed Manning I was told they wouldn't have any money to sign FAs.

    I was also told Colts were screwed cap wise when they signed Luck to his deal.

    People keep MAKING that argument but don't pay attention to how those contracts look in a couple years.
    Here's a list of Super Bowl QBs over the last several years.

    Tom Brady- mostly reasonable contracts
    Jared Goff- rookie contract
    Carson Wentz/Nick Foles- rookie/cheap contracts
    Matt Ryan- big contract
    Cam Newton- reasonable contract
    Peyton Manning- big contract
    Russell Wilson- rookie contract
    Colin Kaepernick- rookie contract
    Joe Flacco- rookie contract

    Wilson is very good, but they haven't made a legit run at the Super Bowl since they gave him the first big contract. It's understandable that the QBs are the highest paid players, but the gap between them and other players is inflated. Going cheap on QBs (Keenum) isn't really the answer, and getting a legit QB to take a reasonable contract isn't about to happen any time soon. Seems to me that getting a legit QB in the draft and making a run at the Super Bowl before he has to be paid is the way to go. When the Rams have to pay Goff, that whole roster is going to change. If the Cowboys give Prescott what he wants, that roster will change. And the narrative that the Seahawks can't put talent around Wilson and the Packers can't put talent around Rodgers will continue. It's hard for a QB to maximize their earning potential and compete for Super Bowls at the same time.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Jason in LA View Post

      Here's a list of Super Bowl QBs over the last several years.

      Tom Brady- mostly reasonable contracts
      Jared Goff- rookie contract
      Carson Wentz/Nick Foles- rookie/cheap contracts
      Matt Ryan- big contract
      Cam Newton- reasonable contract
      Peyton Manning- big contract
      Russell Wilson- rookie contract
      Colin Kaepernick- rookie contract
      Joe Flacco- rookie contract

      Wilson is very good, but they haven't made a legit run at the Super Bowl since they gave him the first big contract. It's understandable that the QBs are the highest paid players, but the gap between them and other players is inflated. Going cheap on QBs (Keenum) isn't really the answer, and getting a legit QB to take a reasonable contract isn't about to happen any time soon. Seems to me that getting a legit QB in the draft and making a run at the Super Bowl before he has to be paid is the way to go. When the Rams have to pay Goff, that whole roster is going to change. If the Cowboys give Prescott what he wants, that roster will change. And the narrative that the Seahawks can't put talent around Wilson and the Packers can't put talent around Rodgers will continue. It's hard for a QB to maximize their earning potential and compete for Super Bowls at the same time.
      There is winning the super bowl and there is getting to the playoffs
      the stud QBs get the the playoffs more often
      then the middling QBs .

      Once in the playoffs , weird crap happens all the time. Bad coaching , bad calls, weird plays




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      • #93
        Originally posted by Jason in LA View Post

        Here's a list of Super Bowl QBs over the last several years.

        Tom Brady- mostly reasonable contracts
        Jared Goff- rookie contract
        Carson Wentz/Nick Foles- rookie/cheap contracts
        Matt Ryan- big contract
        Cam Newton- reasonable contract
        Peyton Manning- big contract
        Russell Wilson- rookie contract
        Colin Kaepernick- rookie contract
        Joe Flacco- rookie contract

        Wilson is very good, but they haven't made a legit run at the Super Bowl since they gave him the first big contract. It's understandable that the QBs are the highest paid players, but the gap between them and other players is inflated. Going cheap on QBs (Keenum) isn't really the answer, and getting a legit QB to take a reasonable contract isn't about to happen any time soon. Seems to me that getting a legit QB in the draft and making a run at the Super Bowl before he has to be paid is the way to go. When the Rams have to pay Goff, that whole roster is going to change. If the Cowboys give Prescott what he wants, that roster will change. And the narrative that the Seahawks can't put talent around Wilson and the Packers can't put talent around Rodgers will continue. It's hard for a QB to maximize their earning potential and compete for Super Bowls at the same time.


        The best QBs are in the playoffs every year regardless of their contracts. Lesser starting QBs watch from home every year.

        You cant get to the SB if you miss out every year. I’m shocked how broncos fans cannot see this when for years they missed playoffs because their QB sucked. Needed weird crazy comebacks from Tebow to even get into the playoffs after missing so many years. Then a HOFer.

        If a team has a top tier QB who’s not old, they do whatever it takes to keep them. Anything happens in the playoffs, but most years the better QBs are getting in.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Drunken.Broncoholic2 View Post



          The best QBs are in the playoffs every year regardless of their contracts. Lesser starting QBs watch from home every year.

          You cant get to the SB if you miss out every year. I’m shocked how broncos fans cannot see this when for years they missed playoffs because their QB sucked. Needed weird crazy comebacks from Tebow to even get into the playoffs after missing so many years. Then a HOFer.

          If a team has a top tier QB who’s not old, they do whatever it takes to keep them. Anything happens in the playoffs, but most years the better QBs are getting in.
          I do not understand it either. Sure you dont want to give guys like Stafford and Kaep huge money but the only way to have sustained success is with a top QB. How come the guys didnt learn after bitching about Mannings deal that Denver wouldn't do anything because they couldn't afford any FAs? They stupid thing to do in my opinion is pay DL/LB QB type money and go the journeymen route.

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          • #95
            My issue is paying a QB a ridiculous amount, and teams that have done that haven't had much success. I personally view a successful season as making it to the conference championship game. At that point a team is legitimately contending for a Super Bowl. Simply making the playoffs and flaming out early isn't all that of successful season. Sure, it's better than not making the playoffs, but it's not really competing for a Super Bowl, in my personal opinion.

            Wilson is an amazing QB. No question about that. Will the Seahawks contend for a Super Bowl by paying one guy like 13-15% of their salary cap? The two seasons before Wilson's first big contract, they were in the Super Bowl in back to back years. In the four years since giving him the contract, they've lost in the second round twice, the wild card round once, and missed the playoffs once. The issue is that they haven't been able to build a good roster around him. Well, he's taking up a huge amount of the cap. So the solution is to pay him even more money and hope for different results?

            My issue isn't only with Wilson. It's all of these QBs who are taking up huge amounts of the cap. It's simply not a way to compete for Super Bowls. Wilson is a better QB than lets say Goff. But the Rams have a much better chance of competing for a Super Bowl with Goff's current contract. That's not to say that Wilson should take similar money to a QB on his rookie contract. But to break the bank, it's hurting the Seahawks' chances of competing for a Super Bowl. The Ravens went to two AFCCGs, winning one that let to their Super Bowl title, and then they made Flacco the highest paid QB in the league. how did that work out for them?

            This over inflated QB market has allowed Stafford, Cousins, and Carr to get so much money that their teams will struggle to even make the playoffs. And bad QBs like Keenum get $18 million a year. To build a good enough roster to put around Keenum, they'd need to pay him a lot less than that.

            This system is broke. Go all in on a QB and you're pretty much screwed. Go cheap and you're screwed again. Good luck in trying to get a QB to take a reasonable contract. Only solution that comes to mind is to put a cap on QB contracts. Of course the QBs would hate that, but there are way more non-QBs in the NFLPA. They should push for that.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Jason in LA View Post
              My issue is paying a QB a ridiculous amount, and teams that have done that haven't had much success. I personally view a successful season as making it to the conference championship game. At that point a team is legitimately contending for a Super Bowl. Simply making the playoffs and flaming out early isn't all that of successful season. Sure, it's better than not making the playoffs, but it's not really competing for a Super Bowl, in my personal opinion.

              Wilson is an amazing QB. No question about that. Will the Seahawks contend for a Super Bowl by paying one guy like 13-15% of their salary cap? The two seasons before Wilson's first big contract, they were in the Super Bowl in back to back years. In the four years since giving him the contract, they've lost in the second round twice, the wild card round once, and missed the playoffs once. The issue is that they haven't been able to build a good roster around him. Well, he's taking up a huge amount of the cap. So the solution is to pay him even more money and hope for different results?

              My issue isn't only with Wilson. It's all of these QBs who are taking up huge amounts of the cap. It's simply not a way to compete for Super Bowls. Wilson is a better QB than lets say Goff. But the Rams have a much better chance of competing for a Super Bowl with Goff's current contract. That's not to say that Wilson should take similar money to a QB on his rookie contract. But to break the bank, it's hurting the Seahawks' chances of competing for a Super Bowl.

              This over inflated QB market has allowed Stafford, Cousins, and Carr to get so much money that their teams will struggle to even make the playoffs. And bad QBs like Keenum get $18 million a year. To build a good enough roster to put around Keenum, they'd need to pay him a lot less than that.

              This system is broke. Go all in on a QB and you're pretty much screwed. Go cheap and you're screwed again. Good luck in trying to get a QB to take a reasonable contract. Only solution that comes to mind is to put a cap on QB contracts. Of course the QBs would hate that, but there are way more non-QBs in the NFLPA. They should push for that.

              people flipped cause Manning’s contract was going to handcuff the roster. Didn’t turn out that way. Vons cap hit is 25M this year. One player. A lot of QBs you mentioned aren’t as good as Wilson. Elway was the only idiot in the league willing to give Keenum that contract. Other bad FOs inflate mediocre QBs with contracts like Stafford etc. But Wilson is top tier. Brady is an enigma.

              https://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/2019/

              The QBs on this list getting paid will be in the playoffs barring injury Aside from Stafford Carr and a couple others. Below that 20M line there isn’t anyone worthy of playoff berths other than rookie contracts(which will turn into huge contracts in a few years).

              If if you are lucky enough to get top tier QB talent you keep him until he cannot throw a football.

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              • #97
                People mention Wilson's contract like ot is prohibiting them from signing top tier FAs. What they don't mention is the key to their SB run (and many teams) is having a legit QB and drafting all pro players late in the draft. The sustained success is in the QB. The teams that put an amazing D together have a one or two year window before the bill is due like Seattle, Denver and most recently Jacksonville for one year. Pay the QB that is a legit top tier guy like Seattle always was doing. The Twitter clowns manufactured a story very similar to how the news media does.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Jason in LA View Post
                  My issue is paying a QB a ridiculous amount, and teams that have done that haven't had much success. I personally view a successful season as making it to the conference championship game. At that point a team is legitimately contending for a Super Bowl. Simply making the playoffs and flaming out early isn't all that of successful season. Sure, it's better than not making the playoffs, but it's not really competing for a Super Bowl, in my personal opinion.
                  I don't know the answer for why the big money QBs don't have much success. It's hard to make the argument based on dollars alone. But I'm starting to wonder if maybe having The Franchise in the saddle might not impact how teams evaluate in the draft. It seems so often that these teams that come out of nowhere by striking gold in the draft at QB also seem to stockpile a lot of other young studs at the same time.

                  You don't often see the same with old steady hands at QB. Makes me wonder if maybe it changes teams' way of thinking about the draft. Like maybe they're less aggressive with their scouting instincts or something.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by DENVERDUI55 View Post
                    People mention Wilson's contract like ot is prohibiting them from signing top tier FAs. What they don't mention is the key to their SB run (and many teams) is having a legit QB and drafting all pro players late in the draft. The sustained success is in the QB. The teams that put an amazing D together have a one or two year window before the bill is due like Seattle, Denver and most recently Jacksonville for one year. Pay the QB that is a legit top tier guy like Seattle always was doing. The Twitter clowns manufactured a story very similar to how the news media does.


                    Agree on all fronts

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BroncoBeavis View Post

                      I don't know the answer for why the big money QBs don't have much success. It's hard to make the argument based on dollars alone. But I'm starting to wonder if maybe having The Franchise in the saddle might not impact how teams evaluate in the draft. It seems so often that these teams that come out of nowhere by striking gold in the draft at QB also seem to stockpile a lot of other young studs at the same time.

                      You don't often see the same with old steady hands at QB. Makes me wonder if maybe it changes teams' way of thinking about the draft. Like maybe they're less aggressive with their scouting instincts or something.
                      Teams with franchise QBs generally tend to draft late, in the mid to late 20s and that affects how they draft IMHO. Having a franchise QB is nice because the team, most of the time, will be competitive. That said, unless the team drafts really well and get lucky on their picks, they generally don't surround said franchise QB with blue chip, elite talent. I think Bill Polian sucked as the Colts GM when Manning was their QB, then again, the Colts were always drafting late. Same with the Patriots and Hoody, look at all their lack luster drafts over the years. When was the last time the Packers had a kick ass draft that loaded them up with some talent, or a string a drafts where they layered on some talent?

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                      • Originally posted by Tombstone RJ View Post

                        Teams with franchise QBs generally tend to draft late, in the mid to late 20s and that affects how they draft IMHO. Having a franchise QB is nice because the team, most of the time, will be competitive. That said, unless the team drafts really well and get lucky on their picks, they generally don't surround said franchise QB with blue chip, elite talent. I think Bill Polian sucked as the Colts GM when Manning was their QB, then again, the Colts were always drafting late. Same with the Patriots and Hoody, look at all their lack luster drafts over the years. When was the last time the Packers had a kick ass draft that loaded them up with some talent, or a string a drafts where they layered on some talent?

                        The examples you gave just proves how valuable a great QB is to a team.

                        Pats packers Colts drafted ****ty and still won SBs.....because they had HOF QBs

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                        • Originally posted by Drunken.Broncoholic2 View Post


                          The examples you gave just proves how valuable a great QB is to a team.

                          Pats packers Colts drafted ****ty and still won SBs.....because they had HOF QBs
                          I definitely think bringing in the right free agents is more of a key to winning than drafting well when you have a franchise QB. That's what Shanahan did when he became the Broncos head coach, he brought in a crap load of FAs. The Pats have had some good draft picks under hoody, like Gronkowski and Sony Michel looks good. That said, he brings in FAs too like Rodney Harrison. The Pats never over pay their vets that they draft, for the most part, they let those players go and get comp picks. Hoody loads up on drafting players in order to have as many draft picks as possible to score on good players via the draft. Good plan, IMHO.

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