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Vladimir Putin, Russian Neocon

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  • Vladimir Putin, Russian Neocon

    Ever since Vladimir Putin invaded Crimea, American pundits have strained to understand his view of the world. Putin’s been called a Nazi; a tsar; a man detached from reality. But there’s another, more familiar framework that explains his behavior. In his approach to foreign policy, Vladimir Putin has a lot in common with those very American hawks (or “neocons” in popular parlance) who revile him most.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...neocon/284602/

  • #2
    David Brooks, Neocon.

    Baaaahahahahaha.

    I bet it's more fun to write when you can literally bend words to mean anything you want whenever you've got a short deadline to meet.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
      David Brooks, Neocon.

      Baaaahahahahaha.

      I bet it's more fun to write when you can literally bend words to mean anything you want whenever you've got a short deadline to meet.
      Speaking of bending something to mean anything you want, I like how you pick one small detail that can be disputed and use it to invalidate an entire article or argument.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TonyR View Post
        Speaking of bending something to mean anything you want, I like how you pick one small detail that can be disputed and use it to invalidate an entire article or argument.
        I read the whole thing.

        Here's the formula... highlight 'truths' that you could find about just about anyone.

        Select the laundry list of people you'd like to discredit, no matter how loosely affiliated.

        Dish out heaping helpings of Putin Association Fallacy.

        Oooh, he's concerned about appeasement! Look at these quotes! Never mind you could find similar quotes from Clinton or JFK or virtually anyone with an interest in foreign relations.

        Oooh, he's only concerned about principles when they're self-serving. Lolz. A universal human condition.

        Oooh, just like those nasty neocons, Putin doesn't understand economic power! z Beinert's mostly just projecting here. Putin's lack of respect for the Chinese-solar-panel installation contractor economy is probably just coincidental.

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        • #5
          Meanwhile Dirty Donkeys are making deals with gun runners and organized crime.

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          • #6
            Bush looked into his soul.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Rohirrim View Post
              Bush looked into his soul.
              And liked what he saw.

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              • #8

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                • #9
                  I have to take issue with some of what this guy writes. He obviously believes in the comic book version of Teddy Roosevelt - all hawk, all imperialist, all the time. TR was the first American statesman to win the Nobel Peace Prize. He did it by directly negotiating the peace between Russia and Japan in their war. He also went along with the peace movement in the U.S. by negotiating an arbitration with Mexico, rather than resorting to war, which is what the hawks wanted.

                  I also disagree with his take on Bubba Clinton. Bubba did more to dismantle the lower rungs of the ladder of opportunity in America than nearly any other modern president. His view of economics is dreamlike, at best. He gave manufacturers a "Get out of America Free" card and then believed in some unicorn of a "service economy" which would make up the difference. Of course, that service economy did not materialize. I'm sure he was shocked to learn that the average blue collar worker in America was unable to transition into writing software. Imagine!

                  The hawks are also wrong. Belligerence carries the seeds of its own downfall and only makes Putin stronger at home. First, like I keep saying, the Ukrainians have to kill some Russians. If they just lie down and let Putin walk all over them, then so be it. Nobody can help them. Hell, the Poles counter-attacked Hitler's Blitzkrieging Panzers on horseback! What we should do is make sure this move costs Putin big. The one thing that Bubba has right, IMHO, is that Putin's eyes are filled with glory, not reality. The brunt of the cost for this move must fall on Moscow. Let them pay for Putin's adventurism. As proved in Afghanistan, they won't pay for long. Playing the hawk allows Putin to keep selling his picture of the Evil West to his people, with Russia the underdog.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rohirrim View Post
                    I have to take issue with some of what this guy writes. He obviously believes in the comic book version of Teddy Roosevelt - all hawk, all imperialist, all the time. TR was the first American statesman to win the Nobel Peace Prize. He did it by directly negotiating the peace between Russia and Japan in their war. He also went along with the peace movement in the U.S. by negotiating an arbitration with Mexico, rather than resorting to war, which is what the hawks wanted.

                    I also disagree with his take on Bubba Clinton. Bubba did more to dismantle the lower rungs of the ladder of opportunity in America than nearly any other modern president. His view of economics is dreamlike, at best. He gave manufacturers a "Get out of America Free" card and then believed in some unicorn of a "service economy" which would make up the difference. Of course, that service economy did not materialize. I'm sure he was shocked to learn that the average blue collar worker in America was unable to transition into writing software. Imagine!

                    The hawks are also wrong. Belligerence carries the seeds of its own downfall and only makes Putin stronger at home. First, like I keep saying, the Ukrainians have to kill some Russians. If they just lie down and let Putin walk all over them, then so be it. Nobody can help them. Hell, the Poles counter-attacked Hitler's Blitzkrieging Panzers on horseback! What we should do is make sure this move costs Putin big. The one thing that Bubba has right, IMHO, is that Putin's eyes are filled with glory, not reality. The brunt of the cost for this move must fall on Moscow. Let them pay for Putin's adventurism. As proved in Afghanistan, they won't pay for long. Playing the hawk allows Putin to keep selling his picture of the Evil West to his people, with Russia the underdog.
                    To be fair, Putin's going to sell whatever picture he wants his state-run media to pimp. Our messaging has to be for Putin and Putin alone. We can have no expectation to influence the average Russian with our actions. They will only see what they're allowed to see.

                    And you don't have to be belligerent to reinforce your allies when a thug is on the prowl. Even if it's just to make sure the Thug understands there's a line somewhere he can't cross. Again, nobody wants war with Russia. Unfortunately the only thing that makes that war more likely is not preparing for it.

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                    • #11
                      You cannot reinforce people who refuse to stand up for themselves.

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                      • #12
                        I think the Ukraine is willing to lose Crimea. At most this could mean more US troops in NATO countries. Good way to not have to cut troop numbers which you know the govt secretly loves. All of them love it.

                        Dems love high military troop numbers. They are good govt jobs with bennies. Repubs love high troop numbers because they think it makes us more powerful overseas.

                        Kids win because its a good way to get out of rural areas and get an education.

                        Hell all the govt needs is someone to scare us into thinking we need them.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rohirrim View Post
                          You cannot reinforce people who refuse to stand up for themselves.
                          Crimea was a different animal. We won't know much of anything about Ukraine's future until Putin pushes further.

                          In the meantime we should work to insulate the rest of Europe from the Russosphere economically, and do whatever we reasonably can to help the Ukrainians develop their sting.

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                          • #14
                            I perused the link.

                            Why would you listen to William Kristol or Bill Clinton? A neo con and a neo lib.

                            Here's a much better analysis. PCR is one of the few people who's telling the truth. It's why the idiots around here hate him.

                            MHG

                            I will quote from this piece
                            http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014...craig-roberts/

                            The view through Putin's eyes...

                            This is what Putin thinks: The Americans promised Gorbachev that they would not take NATO into Eastern Europe, but the Americans did. The Americans withdrew from the ABM Treaty, which prohibited escalating the arms race with anti-ballistic missile systems. The Americans arranged with Poland to deploy anti-ballistic missile bases on Poland’s border with Russia. The Americans tell us the fantastic lie that the purpose of American missile bases in Poland is to protect Europe from non-existent Iranian ICBMs. The Americans change their war doctrine to elevate nuclear weapons from a retaliatory deterrent to a pre-emptive first strike force. The Americans pretend that this change in war doctrine is directed at terrorists, but we know it is directed at Russia.

                            The Americans have financed “color revolutions” in Georgia and Ukraine and hope to do so in the Russian Federation itself. The Americans support the terrorists in Chechnya. The Americans trained and equipped the Georgian military and gave it the green light to attack our peacekeepers in South Ossetia.

                            The Americans have financed the overthrow of the elected government in Ukraine and blame me for the anxiety this caused among Crimeans who on their own volition fled Ukraine and returned to Russia from whence they came. Even Gorbachev said that Khrushchev should never have put Crimea into Ukraine. Solzhenitsyn said that Lenin should not have put Russian provinces into eastern and southern Ukraine. Now I have these Russian provinces agitating to return to Russia, and the Americans are blaming me for the consequences of their own reckless and irresponsible actions.

                            The Americans say I want to rebuild the Soviet Empire. Yet, the Americans witnessed me depart from Georgia when I had this former Russian province in my hands, thanks to the short-lived war instigated by the Americans.

                            There is no end to the American lies. I have done everything possible to respond to provocations in a low-key reasonable manner, offering to work things out diplomatically, as has my Foreign Minister Lavrov. But the Americans continue to provoke and to hide their provocations behind lies. The Americans brazenly bring to me a strategic threat in Ukraine. They intend to put Ukraine in NATO, the purpose of which expired with the Soviet collapse. They intend to put more missile bases on Russia’s borders, and they intended to evict Russia from its Black Sea naval base, its warm water port

                            Americans have no intention of working anything out. They intend to subjugate Russia. Washington wants Russia powerless, surrounded with ABM bases that degrade our strategic deterrent to uselessness. These Americans will not work with me. They will not listen to me or to Russia’s Foreign Minister. They only hear their own call for American hegemony over the world. My only alternative is to prepare for war.

                            The government of China, having read Washington’s war plans for war against China and being fully aware of Washington’s “pivot to Asia,” in which the “indispensable nation” announced its “safe-guarding of peace” by surrounding China with naval and air bases, understands that it has the same Washington enemy as does Russia.

                            What the entire world faces, every country, every individual regardless of their political orientation, is a Washington-engineered confrontation with Russia and China. This confrontation is enabled by Washington’s bought-and-paid-for European and UK puppet states. Without the cover provided by Europe, Washington’s acts of aggression would result in war crimes charges against the government in Washington. The world would not be able to enforce these charges without war, but Washington would be isolated.

                            The European, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and UK governments have betrayed not only their own peoples but also the peoples of the entire world by lending the support of Western Civilization to Washington’s lawlessness.

                            The propaganda that the West represents the hope of the world is a great lie.

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                            • #15
                              Ha.

                              Yeah. The Canadians, the English, Kiwis, Aussies, French, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, Hungarians, Poles, Japanese, South Koreans, Indians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, Romanians, Bulgarians Greeks, Turks, Czechs, Slovaks, Icelanders, Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, and the Finns?

                              They've all got it all wrong. HEGEMONY! CAHOOTS!

                              Moscow's orbit is the place you wanna be.

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