Keystone pipeline dealt a big blow

[BroncoBeavis]

Specifics please?

How is this viably done? Again, specifics. That means I want to know how the infrastructure will be paid for and how it will be installed.

Unicorns. And Flux Capacitors. Engineered by retrained oil rig workers.

[Fedaykin]

Specifics please?

How is this viably done? Again, specifics. That means I want to know how the infrastructure will be paid for and how it will be installed.

The same way petrol infrastructure, electrical infrastructure, telephone infrastructure, sanitation infrastructure, Internet infrastructure, and tons of other infrastructures were paid for and installed -- as a mix of private and public effort. You guys act like we haven't build out new infrastructure before....

[alkemical]

Cheap oil fuels the economy that leads to advancement, that ends with us still on top. Force it over too soon and you risk letting China catch us.

China has moved beyond us, the gap will be even bigger in the next ten years. China has opened hackerspaces and given 3d printers to local labs.

We are falling behind due to our idiocracy and willingness to live in a mythology of what Murica is.

[BroncoBeavis]

The same way petrol infrastructure, electrical infrastructure, telephone infrastructure, sanitation infrastructure, Internet infrastructure, and tons of other infrastructures were paid for and installed -- as a mix of private and public effort. You guys act like we haven't build out new infrastructure before....

Not theoretical SciFi infrastructure. Some always want to put that particular cart before that horse.

Edison and Tesla had to do their thing before there was an electrical infrastructure to build out. Arpanet had to evolve in relative obscurity for decades before it became something worth building out into the internet.

And at no point did a central planner ever say to himself "We need to change how this macroeconomic system works" and proceed to both invent and widely implement a realistic solution.

Nobody said, hey let's make a law that makes transporting horses illegal, so then blacksmiths will turn into inventors and come up with something better. Innovation was already well under way before central authorities knew much of anything about it.

Progress is far more evolutionary than revolutionary. Which is why "progressives" more often than not shoot themselves in the foot passing up incremental improvements waiting for that fictional silver dream bullet they always swear is just around the corner.

[BroncoBeavis]

China has moved beyond us, the gap will be even bigger in the next ten years. China has opened hackerspaces and given 3d printers to local labs.

We are falling behind due to our idiocracy and willingness to live in a mythology of what Murica is.

How many Chinese do you figure can afford 3d printers? And why do you assume they can build some kind of innate advantage out of them? A largely American invention thats more of a threat to cheap Chinese labor than anything. A potential field leveler for its competitors. Though that will take decades.

But its another good example of something... an important development that at no time had a central economic authority responsible for its development.

[alkemical]

How many Chinese do you figure can afford 3d printers? And why do you assume they can build some kind of innate advantage out of them? A largely American invention thats more of a threat to cheap Chinese labor than anything. A potential field leveler for its competitors. Though that will take decades.

But its another good example of something... an important development that at no time had a central economic authority responsible for its development.

Dude, your reading comprehension sucks. They aren't buying them, the government is giving it to them. It's about innovation. Replacing cheap labor with cheaper labor means fatter margins. Or do you think the chinese government cares more for its people than American government.

http://hackaday.com/2011/11/27/chine...-by-engineers/

[alkemical]

QUOTE=alkemical;4062555]http://www.newsweek.com/chevron-give...e-pizza-229491

Pizzas > water[/QUOTE]

I know it's not oil, but this gives context.

[BroncoBeavis]

Dude, your reading comprehension sucks. They aren't buying them, the government is giving it to them. It's about innovation. Replacing cheap labor with cheaper labor means fatter margins. Or do you think the chinese government cares more for its people than American government.

http://hackaday.com/2011/11/27/chine...-by-engineers/

Ooooh, 100 "hackerspaces"

There are many times 100 Americans running their own hobbyist 3d printing fab operations just out of their own pockets. Something well beyond the means of the vast majority of Chinese people.

And if you truly had a world-changing (aka profitable) invention to bring to the world, the last thing you'd do is go put on a public lab display for the world's leading innovators in intellectual property theft.

[alkemical]

Ooooh, 100 "hackerspaces"

There are many times 100 Americans running their own hobbyist 3d printing fab operations just out of their own pockets. Something well beyond the means of the vast majority of Chinese people.

And if you truly had a world-changing (aka profitable) invention to bring to the world, the last thing you'd do is go put on a public lab display for the world's leading innovators in intellectual property theft.

That's looser talk when you support chinese supply chains and outsourced economical policy.

You have falling income, rising inflation. There isn't as much opportunity as what existed. Add increased taxation, as well as collapsing pensions, coupled with outsoirced good and products..and farm land and food being sold to world markets. (Smithfield being a huge example that is current, as well as our oil exports).

You can be all murica as you want, but the mythology doesn't match tje reality.

[BroncoBeavis]

That's looser talk when you support chinese supply chains and outsourced economical policy.

You have falling income, rising inflation. There isn't as much opportunity as what existed. Add increased taxation, as well as collapsing pensions, coupled with outsoirced good and products..and farm land and food being sold to world markets. (Smithfield being a huge example that is current, as well as our oil exports).

You can be all murica as you want, but the mythology doesn't match tje reality.

We've got our problems. But beyond the press releases and gilded facade, China has few answers.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/...oment-arrived/

China's authority envyists love to highlight its press-minted technological gimmicks like subsidized solar panels or 100 experimental 3d printing facilities. But in a country that's still firing up old-fashioned coal powerplants on a weekly basis, it's a little premature to declare what they're doing the vision of our energy future.

[alkemical]

We've got our problems. But beyond the press releases and gilded facade, China has few answers.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/...oment-arrived/

China's authority envyists love to highlight its press-minted technological gimmicks like subsidized solar panels or 100 experimental 3d printing facilities. But in a country that's still firing up old-fashioned coal powerplants on a weekly basis, it's a little premature to declare what they're doing the vision of our energy future.

That doesn't address my points, now does it?

[BroncoBeavis]

That doesn't address my points, now does it?

What is your point exactly. China's improving faster than we are?

Well yes. But they have many light years to go. And a political structure that will either have to be eventually thrown aside, or will cause the whole thing to collapse.

Just makes me remember back to the 80's when everyone in the world thought Japan was going to perpetually eat our lunch and own the world. Then they started having some of the problems that come with mature/post industrialization. They leaned heavy on the command and control (though nothing on the order of China) and they essentially fell off the world growth map. Nobody talks about them overtaking anyone economically anymore.

Command and control can look halfway efficient when you're talking logarithmic advantages in wages. Once those wages are forced to be more competitive, though, China will either have to throw off the central planner's shackles, or find themselves completely unable to compete. It simply becomes too expensive to waste high wages on ill-conceived authoritarian pet projects.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/V3XfpYxHKCo?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Fedaykin]

Not theoretical SciFi infrastructure. Some always want to put that particular cart before that horse.

Edison and Tesla had to do their thing before there was an electrical infrastructure to build out. Arpanet had to evolve in relative obscurity for decades before it became something worth building out into the internet.

LMAO what is being proposed that is merely at the theoretical stage? The only thing that comes to mind as qualifying as "theoretical" is a fusion power infrastructure.

And at no point did a central planner ever say to himself "We need to change how this macroeconomic system works" and proceed to both invent and widely implement a realistic solution.

Nobody said, hey let's make a law that makes transporting horses illegal, so then blacksmiths will turn into inventors and come up with something better. Innovation was already well under way before central authorities knew much of anything about it.

Progress is far more evolutionary than revolutionary. Which is why "progressives" more often than not shoot themselves in the foot passing up incremental improvements waiting for that fictional silver dream bullet they always swear is just around the corner.

Who said anything about a forced or central planning driven and or required conversion? Once again: you need a lot of reading comprehension work.

[BroncoBeavis]

LMAO what is being proposed that is merely at the theoretical stage? The only thing that comes to mind as qualifying as "theoretical" is a fusion power infrastructure.

Renewable power generation has to be competitive to be a true alternative. Generation costs of 3-4x conventional coal can't really be considered a solution to anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/bu...ergy.html?_r=0

Who said anything about a forced or central planning driven and or required conversion? Once again: you need a lot of reading comprehension work.

Denying new crude oil distribution improvements in the name of some theoretical science-fiction alternative that doesn't exist yet is pretty much exactly that.

[Rohirrim]

Specifics please?

How is this viably done? Again, specifics. That means I want to know how the infrastructure will be paid for and how it will be installed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogo...ty-industries/