Keystone pipeline dealt a big blow

[BroncoBeavis]

There was a procedure in place. Why create a new one that bypasses the existing one? Think about it.

Little late in the game for the Ends-Justify-the-Means Proggies to start whining about procedural precedent.

[houghtam]

Hey guys, did you know that oil spills and environmental disasters are a zero sum game?

Did you also know that regulation doesn't work when guided by regulators who are generally no more virtued than those being regulated?

So...less regulation...spills are going to happen regardless.

Hell, let's just put pipelines everywhere. Tar sands oil is easy to clean up. Its environmental impact is overstated. Spills are going to happen anyway, and what's the point in even exploring other methods of energy production, especially at taxpayer expense?

[BroncoBeavis]

Hey guys, did you know that oil spills and environmental disasters are a zero sum game?

They're not. You're just placing most of the negatives on the wrong side.

Did you also know that regulation doesn't work when guided by regulators who are generally no more virtued than those being regulated?

This is news only to a select few.

Hell, let's just put pipelines everywhere. Tar sands oil is easy to clean up. Its environmental impact is overstated. Spills are going to happen anyway, and what's the point in even exploring other methods of energy production, especially at taxpayer expense?

You're hinging the argument over something that's already been decided. The oil is going to market, regardless of how the Gaians feel about oil pipelines. The question is whether it's smarter to pipe the oil over a very clearly defined and centralized route, or train it all over anywhere and everywhere there's available rail capacity.

In terms of both overall energy efficiency and safety, there's no argument. Piping it is better. Unfortunately some people are more worried about winning political statements and headlines than actual progress.

[Rohirrim]

They're not. You're just placing most of the negatives on the wrong side.



This is news only to a select few.



You're hinging the argument over something that's already been decided. The oil is going to market, regardless of how the Gaians feel about oil pipelines. The question is whether it's smarter to pipe the oil over a very clearly defined and centralized route, or train it all over anywhere and everywhere there's available rail capacity.

In terms of both overall energy efficiency and safety, there's no argument. Piping it is better. Unfortunately some people are more worried about winning political statements and headlines than actual progress.

Actual progress? Toward what?

By Gaians I assume you mean people who care about the Earth? And you use it as a derogatory term? What an ignorant tool. Here's a clue for you all: The planet will go on whether we're on it or not. If we save the environment, we'll be saving it for ourselves, in order that we might survive. Gaia, if she existed, could care less. Jellyfish have survived for hundreds of millions of years. They will continue to survive for millions more, no doubt.

[cutthemdown]

It's classic right wing doublethink, too.

"We want less regulation!" Then when disaster strikes, it's "Why should the company have to pay? They were only following regulations!"

I firmly support the right to sue the **** out of companies who ruin the environment. Hell I work at a law firm I love to see people get sued, or lose trying to sue, either way lol.

Let them build the pipeline, then take millions from them when they spill.

I agree any repubs who vote to let companies like BP off the hook for what they owe, etc etc, or whoever that spilled oil should be voted out.

A trumpet player I know from New Orleans told me all the fisherman got rich. Now if the fish don't come back then future fisherman get screwed.

Fact is though life comes back way faster then environmentalists claim it does.

I love th outdoors though. Every precaution should be taken when transporting oil. I have no idea what is safer, but if sending by train is safer so be it. Is it though? I would think a pipeline would have less unknown type disasters. Car on tracks, broken track, driver error etc etc.

With a pipeline its all about maintenance.

[houghtam]

Actual progress? Toward what?

By Gaians I assume you mean people who care about the Earth? And you use it as a derogatory term? What an ignorant tool. Here's a clue for you all: The planet will go on whether we're on it or not. If we save the environment, we'll be saving it for ourselves, in order that we might survive. Gaia, if she existed, could care less. Jellyfish have survived for hundreds of millions of years. They will continue to survive for millions more, no doubt.

As if the only two choices in how to deal with the situation are to ship tar sands oil by pipeline or to ship tar sands oil by rail. That only looks like one choice to me.

If we're Gaians, what does that make people like Beavis?

"A reading from the first letter of houghtam to the Currencians.

You're a soulless tool.

The Word of the Lord.
Thanks be to God."

[Fedaykin]

One way to tell when someone is entirely incapable of dealing with a topic is when they resort to silly caricatures and black+white statements.

[cutthemdown]

As if the only two choices in how to deal with the situation are to ship tar sands oil by pipeline or to ship tar sands oil by rail. That only looks like one choice to me.

If we're Gaians, what does that make people like Beavis?

"A reading from the first letter of houghtam to the Currencians.

You're a soulless tool.

The Word of the Lord.
Thanks be to God."

How do you suggest the usa and canada ship and transport tar sands oil?

[BroncoBeavis]

Actual progress? Toward what?

By Gaians I assume you mean people who care about the Earth? And you use it as a derogatory term? What an ignorant tool. Here's a clue for you all: The planet will go on whether we're on it or not. If we save the environment, we'll be saving it for ourselves, in order that we might survive. Gaia, if she existed, could care less. Jellyfish have survived for hundreds of millions of years. They will continue to survive for millions more, no doubt.

Your problem here is one of focus. Earth does not hang in the balance over the building of the Keystone XL pipeline.

The choice isn't between building the pipeline and Saving Mother Earth.

The choice is between railroading that oil, or pumping it.

Ignoring that fairly important reality, you oppose the pipeline based purely on a quasi-religious, anti-science "MSNBC said Oil Pipelines are bad Mmmmkay" basis.

Meanwhile, in the real world, pipelines result in a lower percentage of oil being spilled, fewer spill incidents in general, and (most importantly) far lower costs in human health and life.

Needless to say, once you make the leap to sacrificing lives on the altar of hollow political statements, you've crossed over into something resembling primitive token worship more than reason.

[Rohirrim]

I firmly support the right to sue the **** out of companies who ruin the environment. Hell I work at a law firm I love to see people get sued, or lose trying to sue, either way lol.

Let them build the pipeline, then take millions from them when they spill.

I agree any repubs who vote to let companies like BP off the hook for what they owe, etc etc, or whoever that spilled oil should be voted out.

A trumpet player I know from New Orleans told me all the fisherman got rich. Now if the fish don't come back then future fisherman get screwed.

Fact is though life comes back way faster then environmentalists claim it does.

I love th outdoors though. Every precaution should be taken when transporting oil. I have no idea what is safer, but if sending by train is safer so be it. Is it though? I would think a pipeline would have less unknown type disasters. Car on tracks, broken track, driver error etc etc.

With a pipeline its all about maintenance.

Only 8% of the oil spilled by the Deepwater Horizon was dealt with. The rest? We don't know. We won't know for years. Maybe decades. It's not over just because we can't see it.

[cutthemdown]

The big ? is does calif frack their oil fields. Twice the size of Bakken in South Dakota. Even liberal Jerry Brown didn't sign a bill that would have banned it. He knows there is just too much money down there.

Just think of calif economy adding all those jobs and money. Unemployed from all over the country could flock to calif and make money just like South Dakota.

I am all for Star Trek advances that make oil obsolete. I just don't see solar and wind as being ready to do it yet. Being patient is on of lifes great obstacles. Liberals just don't care enough about business and the bottom line. They love suffering.

[houghtam]

The big ? is does calif frack their oil fields. Twice the size of Bakken in South Dakota. Even liberal Jerry Brown didn't sign a bill that would have banned it. He knows there is just too much money down there.

Just think of calif economy adding all those jobs and money. Unemployed from all over the country could flock to calif and make money just like South Dakota.

I am all for Star Trek advances that make oil obsolete. I just don't see solar and wind as being ready to do it yet. Being patient is on of lifes great obstacles. Liberals just don't care enough about business and the bottom line. They love suffering.

Speaking of Currencians.

[BroncoBeavis]

Only 8% of the oil spilled by the Deepwater Horizon was dealt with. The rest? We don't know. We won't know for years. Maybe decades. It's not over just because we can't see it.

If only pipelines were illegal. Then the gulf oil spill would've never happened.

[Fedaykin]

I love th outdoors though. Every precaution should be taken when transporting oil. I have no idea what is safer, but if sending by train is safer so be it. Is it though? I would think a pipeline would have less unknown type disasters. Car on tracks, broken track, driver error etc etc.

With a pipeline its all about maintenance.

Even the newest, bestest-ist maintained pipelines leak like sieves. You're trading isolated, definitive and impossible to ignore incidents for a persistent, endless and easy to ignore problem that will affect a lot more people than the former.

[cutthemdown]

Only 8% of the oil spilled by the Deepwater Horizon was dealt with. The rest? We don't know. We won't know for years. Maybe decades. It's not over just because we can't see it.

http://conservationmagazine.org/2012...l-that-oil-go/

Now maybe that is written by oil companies lol. I don't know.