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Old 05-17-2011, 02:45 PM   #26
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I don't want to sound like a wuss, but this piece literally made me think about a girl I like.


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Old 05-17-2011, 08:45 PM   #27
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So I googled serial Jazz music... I have to say, I think I like it a little better than some of the classical music of the same structure. 12-tone serialism seems to sound better on guitar than piano...

Interesting! Very ambitious composition. I also checked out the video of the same guy playing an 8 string nylon string guitar. I liked that one even more.

It's interesting that music based on a compositional approach that shuns tonality by design (i.e., serialism) is, in some ways, easier for the ear to accept than music based on tonal/atonal oscillation (i.e., jazz) - at least to my ears, anyway. Maybe it's because dissonance is less perceptible for the lack of tension and resolution?

The usual purists would probably argue that the music in the video isn't jazz insofar as there is no improvisational component, but there are certainly other elements of jazz present, e.g., a pronounced swing feel, walking bass line, etc. It's more of a hybrid style, IMO.

As a system that follows strict mathematical rules, serialism doesn't seem to lend itself to improvisation in any case. Improvisation, in the truest sense of the word, (i.e., spontaneous composition) while theoretically possible under the rules that govern serialism, would seem too difficult/laborious to be very practical.

There are some exceptions, discussed in an article which I will track down and post later...
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:53 PM   #28
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Interesting! Very ambitious composition. I also checked out the video of the same guy playing an 8 string nylon string guitar. I liked that one even more.

It's interesting that music based on a compositional approach that shuns tonality by design (i.e., serialism) is, in some ways, easier for the ear to accept than music based on tonal/atonal oscillation (i.e., jazz) - at least to my ears, anyway. Maybe it's because dissonance is less perceptible for the lack of tension and resolution?

The usual purists would probably argue that the music in the video isn't jazz insofar as there is no improvisational component, but there are certainly other elements of jazz present, e.g., a pronounced swing feel, walking bass line, etc. It's more of a hybrid style, IMO.

As a system that follows strict mathematical rules, serialism doesn't seem to lend itself to improvisation in any case. Improvisation, in the truest sense of the word, (i.e., spontaneous composition) while theoretically possible under the rules that govern serialism, would seem too difficult/laborious to be very practical.

There are some exceptions, discussed in an article which I will track down and post later...
A - Have you heard of the New Complexity School of classical music? I find it really hard for my ear to accept that stuff, but it's so intriguing. (Check out the two Brian Ferneyhough videos I posted in the thread.)

What do you think the purpose of dissonance is in music? I can find several ways in which it works - there were even elements in Bachs Suite for Solo Cello No. 1 in G Major: I. Prelude that were quite dissonant but resolved and it sound pleasant. You also see it in a lot of music soundtracks, where ominous music might be playing... that isn't necessarliy pleasant, but it's something that you can listen to, and your ears will like.

You should start a Jazz thread.

Anyway, this is good on the 12-tone technique:



And one of Schoenberg's compositions that employs the technique that I find rather interesting:



Webern's retrograde inversion is super complex music:


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Old 05-18-2011, 01:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN View Post
Interesting! Very ambitious composition. I also checked out the video of the same guy playing an 8 string nylon string guitar. I liked that one even more.

It's interesting that music based on a compositional approach that shuns tonality by design (i.e., serialism) is, in some ways, easier for the ear to accept than music based on tonal/atonal oscillation (i.e., jazz) - at least to my ears, anyway. Maybe it's because dissonance is less perceptible for the lack of tension and resolution?

The usual purists would probably argue that the music in the video isn't jazz insofar as there is no improvisational component, but there are certainly other elements of jazz present, e.g., a pronounced swing feel, walking bass line, etc. It's more of a hybrid style, IMO.

As a system that follows strict mathematical rules, serialism doesn't seem to lend itself to improvisation in any case. Improvisation, in the truest sense of the word, (i.e., spontaneous composition) while theoretically possible under the rules that govern serialism, would seem too difficult/laborious to be very practical.

There are some exceptions, discussed in an article which I will track down and post later...
Paco De Lucia, John McLaughlin, and Al Dimeola did some amazing guitar work but since I am new to Classical I am not sure where their individual work or combined work overlap with classical.

Jazz purists died with pure Jazz. Smooth jazz made pure jazz literally inaccessible to the larger population.
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Old 05-18-2011, 01:37 AM   #30
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How important is ARRANGER to Classical? How do learn which Arrangement you like best?

I was told this matters but that it's just better to jump in a see. The difference can be profound as the difference between a live version, acoustic version, or studio version. How do you study arrangers and get a feel that aspect? Where do you find a breakdown of popular arrangements? I guess I am looking for the classics among classics?

If you wanted to learn more about Baroque music. Where would you start?

What is Chamber music? Is it defined by size or type of classical played?

I want to get smarter about what to look for. Classic music for dummies thread?
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:49 AM   #31
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What do you think the purpose of dissonance is in music?
To create tension and release by momentarily shifting away from a tonal center and returning to it. IMO, the challenge for the improvising musician (or for the composer, for that matter) is to use tonal/atonal oscillation sparingly enough that it has an effect on the listener.

Sort of like a guitar player and a chorus pedal: If the guitar player only steps on the pedal at strategic moments, it's much more noticeable and has a greater effect on the listener than leaving the chorus on all the time.

That's why I was thinking that 12-tone music sort of cancels out the effect of dissonance insofar as there is no inside/outside tonal/atonal oscillation in music that is strictly atonal by design. (Which isn't to say that harmonic and melodic interest isn't created via dissonant intervals in 12-tone music.)

Nice Youtube clips, BTW.

Here's a really great resource on serialism and 12-tone music:

http://www.composertools.com/

And here is an excerpt (of special interest to guitar players) from the article I mentioned earlier:

Quote:
A practical alternative to the 12-tone row (and one that better lends itself to the creation of melodic sequences) which can be used in improvisation is the 12-tone pattern.

A 12-tone pattern is one in which the chromatic scale's twelve notes are generated by moving a pattern according to a series of fixed intervals.

Example #1: Take an 'A' Augmented triad (A, C#, F) and move it in ascending minor third intervals. (A+, C+, Eb+, Gb+) Note that none of the notes in the resulting 12-note sequence ever repeat.

Example #2: Play the descending four note group D, C, B, A. Play the same pattern starting a major third below the first note in the group (D).
(Result: A#, G#, G, F) Repeat the process one more time to generate another 12-tone pattern. (Try this one over A Dorian. Integrate the pattern into a Dorian line you already know, if possible. This is a good way to create tonal/atonal oscillation in a modal context.)

Hundreds of permutations can be created through the use of rhythmic displacement.

From "Generating 12-Tone Patterns" by Dave Creamer. (Guitar Player Magazine, June 1989.)
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:15 AM   #32
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Anyway, this is good on the 12-tone technique:

And one of Schoenberg's compositions that employs the technique that I find rather interesting:

Webern's retrograde inversion is super complex music:
Ah, I knew I had dabbled in Schoenberg concepts once upon a time...

I found a page in one of my old musical journals (I write my lines down so I don't forget them later) with a couple ideas for one measure phrases that apply 12-tone technique to tonal music.

I started by arbitrarily choosing a tonal center (G mixolydian for the first idea and G altered for the second.)

Then I did the following: (a) Made sure none of the notes in the first group of sixteenths repeated, (b) second group = retrograde of first, (c) third group = inversion of first, and (d) fourth group = retrograde inversion.

Sometimes you end up with cool-sounding lines - sometimes you don't. It's a fun way to experiment either way.

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Old 05-18-2011, 11:59 AM   #33
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Great thread, made me feel like I was back in music theory again. I'll try to get back to this one later with some of my own favorites, but I thought I'd kick this one out there for those that are interested in Phillip Glass. Check out "Koyaanisqatsi" by director Godfry Reggio. Glass did the entire soundtrack for that film. We attended a special screening at the Cooper Cameo theater down on S. Colorado Blvd for the Denver Youth Symphony (Tympanist). I was gobsmacked by it and started tracking down anything I could find of Glass' work. Netflicks has it on DVD, but would love to see it done in Bluray. Koyaanisqatsi is the Hopi Indian word meaning "Life Out Of Balance". There is little to no dialogue, just slow and fast motion imagery of life on our planet with Glass' incredible soundtrack running relentlessly through it. Amazing stuff. Fundamentally changed my view of the impact films visuals could have as a pure storytelling vehicle with the addition of the right music. Powerful stuff.
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Old 05-18-2011, 01:34 PM   #34
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http://www.du.edu/ahss/schools/lamont/events/

The Lamont School in Denver has great operas, symphonies, jazz concerts, etc

Cheap, too
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:56 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
How important is ARRANGER to Classical? How do learn which Arrangement you like best?

I was told this matters but that it's just better to jump in a see. The difference can be profound as the difference between a live version, acoustic version, or studio version. How do you study arrangers and get a feel that aspect? Where do you find a breakdown of popular arrangements? I guess I am looking for the classics among classics?

If you wanted to learn more about Baroque music. Where would you start?

What is Chamber music? Is it defined by size or type of classical played?

I want to get smarter about what to look for. Classic music for dummies thread?
Oh believe me I'm a music dummy... I just play the drums, a little piano and I took two music theory classes in college.

I honestly don't know what you mean by arranger.... Chamber orchestra's are simply referring to the size of the orchestra. I don't think there is a set limits other than just "small." Some of the most beautiful classical music I've heard isn't dynamic or rich at all, but rather based in chambers and quartets.

That said, the people that I did study music theory under are well respected in their regard. One was Eliana Schonberg, who studied under her uncle, Arnold Schoenberg and another being Molloy (I didn't included his whole name cause he's the type of guy who would google himself to see what people are saying, lol), who is definitely in the postmodern serial camp. Another is William Hill, who composes for the Colorado Symphony Orchestra who is way more tonal than the other two. So basically, my experience has been with really complex, postmodern serial stuff – you know, really snobby classical music that totally neglects tonal centers in favor of complexity. It’s thoughtful, complex music but it rarely sounds plesant (look up Brian Ferneyhough for an example).

Here’s what I do know:
IMO, the three composers who have influenced classical music more than anybody are:
- Johann Sebastian Bach (Chromatic tonality)
- Igor Stravinsky (Syncopated patterns, percussive elements in string instruments, expanded techniques,
- Philip Glass (Pandiatonicism, electronics, music scores fit to film.)

Baroque music was mostly a protestant response to the Catholic reformation, which was a whole movement: music, art, architecture… the works. Baroque was “sacred” music and generally followed strict rules of tonal centers, consistent time signatures – what was defined as “beautiful.” While I like some of Bach and Mozart’s work, I generally find Baroque music more boring than others.

For example… when Stravinsky released the Rite of Spring, the syncopated rhythms, percussive elements and changing time scale started riots in Paris.

I personally prefer mostly semi-atonal music. That is, using a wide scale of chord combinations that are resolved… for the most part (this might be the drummer in me) I think most music should have a moto perpetua (literality “perpetual motor” in Latin – otherwise called an incessant pulse) to be pleasant. Schoenberg has some resolved semi-atonality that really explores musical possibilities but stays really pleasant sounding.

I personally prefer the REALLY modern stuff. That is, compositions that have come out since 2006 – they explore all kinds of tonal centers, still remain pleasant, and incorporate new methods that really create a dynamic, eclectic classical music.

Here are some good composers I suggest everyone should check out, and what they are known for:

Steve Reich (known for minimalism – not simplicity… minimalism is repetitive, but usually really fast tonal structure and a slower time scale, very pleasant sounding. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU23LqQ6LY4

Zoe Keating: a Canadian composer, probably younger than a lot of posters here. She does all her own instrumentation at the same time by looping it as she plays it. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIZTcfrXVMs

Oh ****… did that really take me 30 minutes to write? I got a paper to do… I’ll be back later ☺
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:08 PM   #36
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Mainly classical piano stuff. Chopins one of my favorites though (when I'm in the mood for it)


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Old 05-18-2011, 10:06 PM   #37
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This is an awesome website to... in theory... mess around with twelve tone serialism:
http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix


Here's the numerical values for a 12-tone piece I composed: 258,128,32768,64,0,16384,16,32,4096,8192,8,0,2048, 4,512,384
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:22 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
How important is ARRANGER to Classical? How do learn which Arrangement you like best?

I was told this matters but that it's just better to jump in a see. The difference can be profound as the difference between a live version, acoustic version, or studio version. How do you study arrangers and get a feel that aspect? Where do you find a breakdown of popular arrangements? I guess I am looking for the classics among classics?

If you wanted to learn more about Baroque music. Where would you start?

What is Chamber music? Is it defined by size or type of classical played?

I want to get smarter about what to look for. Classic music for dummies thread?
Classical composers generally wrote their own arrangements, in some cases conductors like Stokowski and Berstein did arrangements of chamber pieces augmenting the # of players or bringing out a certain sound but it is less pronounced that with the song format and the big band jazz stuff. In some cases the same composer wrote different arrangements, Barber did it for the Adagio, Copland and Stravinsky scored the same piece multiple times.

baroque - Bach, Corelli, some Handel, Vivalldi (he rocks and not just the seasons his concerto for 2 trumpets is much more consistently good)

Chamber music is based on # of instrumentalists, from Duo's on up to Chamber symphonies
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:56 PM   #39
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[QUOTE=Mightysmurf;3184592]Was wondering if there are any other classical music nerds in here like myself. What styles/preferences do you go and what composers specifically. If favorites and non-favorites in every genre of classical music… obviously Bach, Mozart and Beethoven’s were the harmonious stuff which led into other periods of tonality… I’m also a sucker for rapid, complex piano – especially Rachmaninov. But I’ve really been expanding my musical preference into some of the more atonal stuff, because it really is remarkable when you consider the possibility of chord progressions – why does it always have to be tonal – there are infinite combinations of semi-tonal and atonal composition structure…

It all started with Igor Stravinsky’s “Rite of Spring”

I thought I would share some of my other lesser-known favorites:
...

I dont go for the 12 tone stuff that much, it doesn't work all the time and it can sound forced.

Stravinsky was the Beethoven of the 20th century. Dumbarton oaks and his Octet are just as amazing to me as the Rite or Petruska, the concertino for 12 instruments, Symphony for Winds...all great stuff, I thought his serial period brought him down, maybe he was bored and looking to stay current but he had it all along and showed so at the end of his career by going back to it.

Ligeti is amazing, love Melodien and the concertos and double concertos he did, I am not a purist when it comes to the 2001 soundtrack, I thought those arrangements complemented his work and were more appropriate for the movie.

Schnitttke's Concerto Grosso and double concerto's - I thought Schnittke laid a path out of the serial forest and compromised between the 12 tone forms and the sonata forms, Most of his stuff is new and exciting while still being listenable.

I like Luigi Nonno when I want strange noises or stuff to scare the kids with at Holloween.

Copland is ear candy

I like the Cowel Hymn and fuging tunes alot.

I have been going through my old record collection and found a copy of a special RCA pressing of Reiner doing Respigi's Pines and Fountains of Rome I dismissed him when I was younger but I really like the 2nd movement of the tone poem. This has got a ton of play recently plus the packaging was killer, it has 3 sleeves! You don't get that with CD's!

I have been playing my Reiner copy of Strauss's Ein Heldeleben a lot over the last couple weeks, Adolph Herseth's trumpet work is incomparable.

I love Gotterdammerung but am not a big on opera in general.

For awhile I was convinced that John Adams is the greatest living composer, I had heard his stuff back in the late 80's and I didn't get it. Then I watched Dr Atomic when it was on PBS and I had to go back and relisten to his catalog and I got it. I still feel guilty that a minamalist would be our greatest living composer but I really like the layers and textures he gets. He would be a guy I would like to talk to, after Gene of course.

When anyone asks for a recommendation to get started I always tell them anything from Beethoven or Mozart and Handel's Concerto Grossi.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:20 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightysmurf View Post
...
Here’s what I do know:
IMO, the three composers who have influenced classical music more than anybody are:
- Johann Sebastian Bach (Chromatic tonality)
- Igor Stravinsky (Syncopated patterns, percussive elements in string instruments, expanded techniques,
- Philip Glass (Pandiatonicism, electronics, music scores fit to film.)
...
I know it was your opinion but you have to consider including Beethoven on that list he impacted the music world much more than Glass ever will. People were just as mad and confused at the atonality in his 9th symphony that we take for granted now as they were at the Rite. Plus the Grosse Fuge String quartet, That piece was 70-80 (or more) years ahead of it's time.

I would go
- Bach
- Beethoven
- Stravinsky
All 3 were true innovators who impacted music for centuries, or a century in the case of Igor.

with also rans to:
- Mozart (tunesmith who didn't really innovate but he wrote beautiful works)
- Haydn - for innovation of the Symphony
- Wagner for his epic scale Operas and the developement of the Tristan chord
- Strauss for the Tone poem concept.
- Copland Not quite the impact or output of Beethoven or Mozart but truely great works that sounded new and fresh.
- Then maybe a guy like Glass or Adams
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Mightysmurf View Post
This is an awesome website to... in theory... mess around with twelve tone serialism:
http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix


Here's the numerical values for a 12-tone piece I composed: 258,128,32768,64,0,16384,16,32,4096,8192,8,0,2048, 4,512,384
You should check out the Arpegiator on the Kurzweil PC3 for some realtime fun.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:51 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
How important is ARRANGER to Classical? How do learn which Arrangement you like best?

I was told this matters but that it's just better to jump in a see. The difference can be profound as the difference between a live version, acoustic version, or studio version. How do you study arrangers and get a feel that aspect? Where do you find a breakdown of popular arrangements? I guess I am looking for the classics among classics?
...
O - When you say ARRANGER do you mean Conductor?

The Conductor is the conduit from the Composer (via the score) to the audiences ears. He interprets what the composer wrote and with the use of tempo markings (speed) and dynamics (loud vs soft) and balance and tone and other notes published in the score to bring out his interpretation of the piece.

A recording of Beethoven's 9th shows Bruno Walter using much slower tempi than Karajan and Fritz Reiner sometimes faster and some times slower than Karajan based on movement.

Karajan was known for never recording something the same way more than once. He was always looking for a new way to present the score.

So yes, Famous Conductors and Orchestra's impact the quality of a composers score.

You can pick up a CD in the cutout bin or one of those greatest hits of Bach type cd's made by cheap pickup orchestras by no named conductors just to move product but they can't compare to an Orchestra with players hand picked by a Conductor who then works over the concert season with them honing them into his ensemble.

Karajan brought out the tone and feeling of the piece with the group he conducted.

Reiner was about detail, playing on the beat, he conducted more with his eyes than the batton and bringing out a clear tone that was balanced appropriate to the period of the piece.

Walter pushed interpretation and took more liberties with the scores

Stokowski, Berstein, and Solti were showmen, look at me jumping on the podium or singing with the line or my hair that is 3 feet tall. They still made some excellent music but they got in their own ways sometimes.

The best thing to do is pick 3 different conductors say Reiner, Karajan, Berstein and then find a couple works they all recorded, then reserve them at your library and sit down and listen to them movement by movement. If you can also get a score (Borders and Amazon.com sell them) it will help because you can see the outline they followed and figure out why they may have taken the tagnets they did.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:26 PM   #43
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Here ya go

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Old 05-20-2011, 03:07 AM   #44
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O - When you say ARRANGER do you mean Conductor?

The Conductor is the conduit from the Composer (via the score) to the audiences ears. He interprets what the composer wrote and with the use of tempo markings (speed) and dynamics (loud vs soft) and balance and tone and other notes published in the score to bring out his interpretation of the piece.

A recording of Beethoven's 9th shows Bruno Walter using much slower tempi than Karajan and Fritz Reiner sometimes faster and some times slower than Karajan based on movement.

Karajan was known for never recording something the same way more than once. He was always looking for a new way to present the score.

So yes, Famous Conductors and Orchestra's impact the quality of a composers score.

You can pick up a CD in the cutout bin or one of those greatest hits of Bach type cd's made by cheap pickup orchestras by no named conductors just to move product but they can't compare to an Orchestra with players hand picked by a Conductor who then works over the concert season with them honing them into his ensemble.

Karajan brought out the tone and feeling of the piece with the group he conducted.

Reiner was about detail, playing on the beat, he conducted more with his eyes than the batton and bringing out a clear tone that was balanced appropriate to the period of the piece.

Walter pushed interpretation and took more liberties with the scores

Stokowski, Berstein, and Solti were showmen, look at me jumping on the podium or singing with the line or my hair that is 3 feet tall. They still made some excellent music but they got in their own ways sometimes.

The best thing to do is pick 3 different conductors say Reiner, Karajan, Berstein and then find a couple works they all recorded, then reserve them at your library and sit down and listen to them movement by movement. If you can also get a score (Borders and Amazon.com sell them) it will help because you can see the outline they followed and figure out why they may have taken the tagnets they did.
I was told that the factors include conductor, as well as, musicians could be factors in the piece. If Bernstein conducted a less responsive orchestra it would show in the presentation.

I am all about sound. Korn, as a musical group, can take literally anything and give it their sound. Or in Jazz Yellow Jackets can do the same thing. I wish that I could find a list of middle of the road or straight ahead conductors and see what makes sense. If I first learn the classical interpretations then I have the vocabulary to learn "wow" stuff.

It sounds like Reiner is worth a listen. I am all about tonality, rhythm and the feel of the music.

Bernstein tried to make classical approachable for young people but like you stated sometimes was a little too AC/DC in his presentations.

In Colorado there is a group of Opera singers that were came down from the mountains to share with people about Opera. Apologies for the side bar but I will never forget hearing Figaro in English. It was just jaw dropping amazing cool stuff. I think this what some of these conductors wanted to accomplish.

I can never thank you enough for the hookup on Classical music so many years ago. You touched a lot of soldiers lives as it ended up on MP3 players for guys dealing with some pretty mean stuff. Thank you again.

Beethoven is amazing and timeless.
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:59 AM   #45
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Default Les Indes Galantes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFeZt0iADZ8

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Old 05-20-2011, 11:31 AM   #46
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Weird seeing a Native American theme to a Baroque composer....

Speaking of Native American themes, checkout one of my music professors at the Lamont School - William Hill. He did a piece with, I believe it was the Michigan Symphony Orchestra called "Aurora Borealis." With Native flute.

The whole thing is available on DRAM or Naxos - if you have/can get a subscription there.

This is all I can post of it (it's actually about 23 minutes long):
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:23 PM   #47
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Haha... I posted one of my Israel papers in the Nakba thread, so why not post a couple of my music theory papers here?
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:54 PM   #48
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I was told that the factors include conductor, as well as, musicians could be factors in the piece. If Bernstein conducted a less responsive orchestra it would show in the presentation.

I am all about sound. Korn, as a musical group, can take literally anything and give it their sound. Or in Jazz Yellow Jackets can do the same thing. I wish that I could find a list of middle of the road or straight ahead conductors and see what makes sense. If I first learn the classical interpretations then I have the vocabulary to learn "wow" stuff.

It sounds like Reiner is worth a listen. I am all about tonality, rhythm and the feel of the music.

Bernstein tried to make classical approachable for young people but like you stated sometimes was a little too AC/DC in his presentations.

In Colorado there is a group of Opera singers that were came down from the mountains to share with people about Opera. Apologies for the side bar but I will never forget hearing Figaro in English. It was just jaw dropping amazing cool stuff. I think this what some of these conductors wanted to accomplish.

I can never thank you enough for the hookup on Classical music so many years ago. You touched a lot of soldiers lives as it ended up on MP3 players for guys dealing with some pretty mean stuff. Thank you again.

Beethoven is amazing and timeless.
You are 100% right about Lenny Bernstein, he was very flamboyant with his presentations, but his Mahlers 9th is stunning. His Young person's guide to the Orchestra is Epic. I always prefered the straight conductors to the Michael Tilson Thomas's of the world, guys like Reiner, Karajan, Kublick, no one would **** with them.

All conductors record with multiple symphonies and some of the lesser ones like NBC or early century Vienna were hit or miss, among others.

The thing people don't get until they have gone to alot of concerts is that the orchestra is a team and the conductor is the coach, it is up to the coach to prepare the team and get them to work to each others strengths and those are things that people like me watch for at a concert. How does the conductor handle certain passages, how he balances the sound, technique etc... you do have to learn the piece to know what is coming when but that is just listening.

I highly recommend anything by Fritz Reiner. You should check out Bernard Haitink, I think he is the best living conductor out there now and he is alot like Reiner.

Check out Chamber music also, they usually dont have a conductor under an octet in size so you get players having to work together more plus the composer can't hide behind bluster or volume, I find it more intense than a loud orchestra some times.

One of my music teachers studied with this big conducting teacher, Richard Lert out in LA during the 50's, and intimadating guy who's wife wrote the book that they based the movie "The Grand Hotel" on. Anyway he asked Lert how he knew something specific about an obscure piece they were listening to live and Lert replied "You must know ALL the literature"! That was my biggest take away from his lessons.

Everyone has their Ah Ha moment, I am glad it was Figaro for you, mine was hearing the 2nd movement to Beethoven's 7th for the 1st time, I just got it.

I wish I could have done more and glad I did what little I did for you and your buddies.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:57 AM   #49
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:57 PM   #50
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Cage is totally inaccessible and a difficult listen.
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