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Old 05-05-2014, 04:07 AM   #2376
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I dug it. It showed a chief weakness he has... This scene wasn't in the book but I think it adds a lot to the character.

I like that scene juxtaposed with the Arya/Hound scene. I'm going to enjoy marinating and deconstructing the meaning hidden between those two scenes...

The changes they've made thus far to the book have added more than they've taken away, IMO. That scene with Jojen was mind blowing for book readers. If I'm not mistaken, it completely blew up one of Rev's favorite theories...
Haven't watched it yet, but Im assuming there goes Jojen Paste
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Old 05-05-2014, 04:29 AM   #2377
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Snow is my favorite character, but what a piss poor assault. Run into the camp screaming. In what world is that a good strategy? Could've easily avoided losing half of his men.

Bow and arrows, anyone?
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Old 05-05-2014, 05:17 AM   #2378
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Haven't watched it yet, but Im assuming there goes Jojen Paste
Not completely. There's enough ambiguity as to what and for whom Jojen's vision was about. Jojen paste still alive and well in my book.
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Old 05-05-2014, 05:19 AM   #2379
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Not completely. There's enough ambiguity as to what and for whom Jojen's vision was about. Jojen paste still alive and well in my book.
I leave for Mexico on Friday and not sure I can get to it before then.

Might just exit thread for a couple weeks.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:13 AM   #2380
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Not completely. There's enough ambiguity as to what and for whom Jojen's vision was about. Jojen paste still alive and well in my book.
Agreed, just watched it and I don't see how it could nix that one yet.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:50 AM   #2381
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Agreed, just watched it and I don't see how it could nix that one yet.
Taco gonna taco.
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Old 05-05-2014, 12:43 PM   #2382
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Snow isn't the brightest bulb though and he is not truly a soldier and that attack shows it.
Lack of true recon, screaming into the camp and trying to fight like he was in a duel.
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Old 05-05-2014, 12:56 PM   #2383
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No way... Jojen paste is dead dead dead... I don't see how anyone can think it's alive at this point. DUring the books, Jojen always says he knows how he is going to go - and is resigned to it. I don't want to say more, but I don't see how that theory could be alive. Jojen has something entirely different on his hands...

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Old 05-05-2014, 03:34 PM   #2384
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No way... Jojen paste is dead dead dead... I don't see how anyone can think it's alive at this point. DUring the books, Jojen always says he knows how he is going to go - and is resigned to it. I don't want to say more, but I don't see how that theory could be alive. Jojen has something entirely different on his hands...
I have to agree with the others. I don't see any inconsistency there at all.

What's more, is that if his body gets burned as part of the ritual, the whole idea of a blood & fire sacrifice buttresses the possibility that 3EC is either behind the whole Rh'llor phenom or hijacking one or more of the red priests for his own purposes.

Finally, even if the TV series drops the whole Soylent Jojen thing, it could just be a matter of streamlining.
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Old 05-05-2014, 06:05 PM   #2385
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Soylent Jojen
!

Perfect name for an electronica spoken word band
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Old 05-05-2014, 06:20 PM   #2386
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Is this thread still about Game of Thrones? I recognize Arya and the Hound but the rest...?
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:31 PM   #2387
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I'm having a real tough time swallowing this children of the forest are R'hollor theory. Seems really hokey to me...
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:11 AM   #2388
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I'm having a real tough time swallowing this children of the forest are R'hollor theory. Seems really hokey to me...
I don't disagree, but frankly I'm having a hard time figuring out how they fit.

They also don't fit well with my beloved Great Other theory since they fought AGAINST the Others with men and would bring the Night's Watch obsidian blades.
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Old 05-06-2014, 09:41 AM   #2389
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Rev, I think it may depend on which "Men" we are talking about - the First Men or the Andals. The Children reached a truce with the "First Men" and, arguably, assimilated them into their religion. It would make some sense if the Children helped them repel the Others.

The Andals are a different story.

As I understand the timeline, it goes like this:

12,000 years ago: First Men enter Westeros, encounter the Children, and war begins.

10,000-12,000 years ago: Children shatter land bridge (Arm of Dorne), later flood the Neck, and war reaches a standstill.

10,000 years ago. Truce reached when races agree to peaceful co-existence and sign pact on the "Isle of Faces." Children get the forests, Men get the open lands. First Men begin incorporating weirwoods into their religious practices. Everything seems hunky-dorey.

6,000 years ago, the Others invade. Children supposedly join with First Men in "Battle of the Dawn" and help drive back the Others. Why not? Children and Men are basically allies at this point. After the repelled invasion, they continue to get along, with Children supplying Nights Watch with obsidian weapons every so often.

BUT, at some point we get the Andal invasion. Dates are all over the place as to exactly when this happened. Somewhere between 1,000 to 6,000 years ago is all we know.

The Andals stick to their own religion (the Seven), burn down all 31 weirwoods on the Isle of Faces (representing destruction/rejection of the truce), drive the remaining Children completely out of southern Westeros and beat up the First Men.

Relations between Men and the Children diminish rapidly until the Children are seen no more and fade into legend. By the time the Targs land, the Children haven't been seen for at least 1,000 years.

So, it may be that the Children were perfectly willing to help the First Men fight back the Others at a time when they were allies, but the Andals were never part of that alliance, nor were their descendants.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:05 AM   #2390
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Until it becomes apparent that the show will or will not mimic the course of the book, with obvious exceptions, it is hard to make any predictions. Even though Weiss and Benioff supposedly know the ending and have stated they wish to incorporate that, we won't know for certain until the next book comes out. For all we know, Jeyne Westerling could be hiding and preggers with Robb's child in the book universe.

I got to admit, I love reading about all the theories and trying to discredit/support them but there is equal parts pleasure and pain with watching them supposedly discounted in the show without knowing if it's legit.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:22 AM   #2391
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What is this Jojen paste theory
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:46 AM   #2392
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What is this Jojen paste theory
It's the idea that Jojen was sacrificed by the Children of the Forest in order to empower a weirwood paste that was fed to Bran in order to activate/enhance his visions. It's based on the following sequence in A Dance with Dragons.

In the book, Jojen has a pretty good sense of his own doom. He doesn’t do well on the trip to the 3EC, but insists (correctly) that it’s not yet his time to die.

After they arrive, Jojen says to Bran, “My task was to get you here. My part in this is done.” P449.

Soon after, Jojen begins brooding. Id. Just a little later, after Bloodraven explains greenseers to Bran, Bran asks if he’s going to be killed. Meera chides Jojen for scaring Bran. Jojen responds, “He is not the one who needs to be afraid.” p452.

A number of days go by. Bran practices warging while Jojen and Meera wander around. Then this:

“Under the Hill, Jojen Reed grew ever more sullen and solitary, to his sister’s distress.” He starts going on hikes by himself, climbing to the cave mouth and “stand there for hours, looking out over the forest, wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same.” P455.

Meera tells Bran that although Jojen wants to go home, “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.” P455.

So it’s fairly obvious that Jojen, from his dreams, knows his fate, and that he’s going to die, and soon.

Meera, without revealing to Bran the substance of Jojen’s “greendreams,” begins to cry when Bran calls Jojen a brave person, and bolts away from Bran. P456.

We jump ahead a few days to a new phase of the moon. No indication that Bran has seen either of the Reeds in the meantime. Bloodraven tells Bran "it’s time" and Leaf (the forest child) gives him what she describes as a “paste of weirwood seeds.” And here we go:

“Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood.” P457 (emphasis added)

After Bran does the trippy thing with his visions, he’s returned to his chamber. Jojen and Meera are still missing. He tries to stay awake and does some more weirwood tripping. During this trip, Bran watches a human sacrifice made to a weirwood tree (most likely at some point in the distant past) and he can “taste the blood.” P460.

The chapter ends.

Is Jojen dead at this point? Seems likely. Was it merely a coincidence that the paste seemed to have blood in it? Probably not. A coincidence that the chapter ends with a vision of human sacrifice to a weirwood tree?

So, while none of this is by any means confirmed, there are certainly a couple of strong hints.


Edit to add note: Interesting that FOUR TIMES in this same chapter, we read the following phrase: "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife." Twice it's described as "a black hole in the sky." Why all the foreboding if Bran's just eating maple pudding?

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Old 05-06-2014, 11:00 AM   #2393
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^ + Bran knows blood taste intimately through Summer.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:04 AM   #2394
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This might help. It's an "extra" from the HBO DVD set (first season, I think)



Notice that the greenseer in the first segment clearly seems to be using fire as part of a ritual.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:23 PM   #2395
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Question for the book readers. If I had to guess, I would say TWoW will be released sometime around season 5 airing on HBO. That only gives Martin 2 years for ADoS. I just can't see him finishing the series before HBO does. They sound pretty insistent on 7 seasons. GRRM always talks about the series taking a break or doing a prequel series in between to give him time but it doesn't sound like HBO has any interest in doing either. So if it comes to pass that the 7th and final season airs before Martin has released ADoS, what will you guys do? Wait for the book and then watch season 7? Watch season 7 and then read the book when its released? I would rather read the book before hand but my curiosity might get the better of me. Will be a tough decision.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:12 PM   #2396
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I'm sure I'd go ahead and watch the HBO series. It would be almost impossible to avoid spoilers anyway.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:27 PM   #2397
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I'm sure I'd go ahead and watch the HBO series. It would be almost impossible to avoid spoilers anyway.
That's a good point. You would basically have to lock yourself in a room until ADoS came out. Definitely wouldn't be able to use the internet at all lol
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:29 PM   #2398
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Question for the book readers. If I had to guess, I would say TWoW will be released sometime around season 5 airing on HBO. That only gives Martin 2 years for ADoS. I just can't see him finishing the series before HBO does. They sound pretty insistent on 7 seasons. GRRM always talks about the series taking a break or doing a prequel series in between to give him time but it doesn't sound like HBO has any interest in doing either. So if it comes to pass that the 7th and final season airs before Martin has released ADoS, what will you guys do? Wait for the book and then watch season 7? Watch season 7 and then read the book when its released? I would rather read the book before hand but my curiosity might get the better of me. Will be a tough decision.
I disagree. I think affc and adwd make two and maybe a half seasons.

That means winds od winter hits with at least a season to spare. I also think it'll be so content rich it'll take two seasons.

Martin should have 3-4 years to finish it. I think he will.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:41 PM   #2399
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I disagree. I think affc and adwd make two and maybe a half seasons.

That means winds od winter hits with at least a season to spare. I also think it'll be so content rich it'll take two seasons.

Martin should have 3-4 years to finish it. I think he will.
I thought I heard in an interview that HBO was going to combine affc and adwd chronologically and cut a lot of the filler material to make it one season.

The producers sound pretty damn intent on finishing in 7 seasons as well. Quite a few actors' contracts expire after season 7 anyway, and some in 6 (Dinklage I believe). Considering how famous a lot of these people are now, it would be very expensive to get them all signed on again even for just a couple of seasons.

I don't doubt it will be incredibly content rich. TWoT and ADoS are both supposed to be +1500 pages long according to Martin (nearly twice the size of the other novels). Maybe the producers will rethink the 7 seasons thing when they realize this. Or maybe they'll split up seasons 6 and 7 into two parts. Otherwise we're looking at the series diverging pretty significantly from the books in the near future.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:48 PM   #2400
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I thought I heard in an interview that HBO was going to combine affc and adwd chronologically and cut a lot of the filler material to make it one season.

The producers sound pretty damn intent on finishing in 7 seasons as well. Quite a few actors' contracts expire after season 7 anyway, and some in 6 (Dinklage I believe). Considering how famous a lot of these people are now, it would be very expensive to get them all signed on again even for just a couple of seasons.

I don't doubt it will be incredibly content rich. TWoT and ADoS are both supposed to be +1500 pages long according to Martin (nearly twice the size of the other novels). Maybe the producers will rethink the 7 seasons thing when they realize this. Or maybe they'll split up seasons 6 and 7 into two parts. Otherwise we're looking at the series diverging pretty significantly from the books in the near future.

I get where you're coming from. I just don't think any less than 9 seasons is realistic.
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