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Old 05-01-2014, 02:54 PM   #2026
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Yeah I think the Children of the Forrest are pulling a lot of the strings. To what end, I haven't nailed down just yet. Part of me thinks it's just to murder humans (Martin has been on record saying he sees everyone dead at the end of his story.) Another part has me thinking they're opposing something else. I personally think the Starks are part "other" and that affords them the ability to Wargs. I also think this other blood is what is allowing Bran to be manipulated...and possibly John Snow as well.
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Old 05-01-2014, 02:56 PM   #2027
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Yeah I think the Children of the Forrest are pulling a lot of the strings. To what end, I haven't nailed down just yet. Part of me thinks it's just to murder humans (Martin has been on record saying he sees everyone dead at the end of his story.) Another part has me thinking they're opposing something else. I personally think the Starks are part "other" and that affords them the ability to Wargs. I also think this other blood is what is allowing Bran to be manipulated...and possibly John Snow as well.
Stop talkin' crap about the Starks, bro.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:30 PM   #2028
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You think there is something to Westeros only knowing of the Others, while Essos only (in general terms) knows R'hllor?
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:23 PM   #2029
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You think there is something to Westeros only knowing of the Others, while Essos only (in general terms) knows R'hllor?
Well, the Red Priests seem to believe in a "Great Other" which is basically the equivalent (for them) of Satan/Darkness/Oblivion/Entropy/Ultimate Evil, etc. and Mel doesn't seem a bit surprised about the zombies. So I don't think it can be said that Essos is ignorant about the "Others." In fact, they've got a highly developed legend about Azor Ahai, a messiah like figure who drove back the Others in ages past and who will supposedly rise again. Mel is convinced that Stannis is Azor Ahai. The Red Priests back in Essos are convinced that Dany is Azor Ahai.

What's interesting is that the people in Westeros, who had to deal with this stuff first hand, never heard of any frigging Azor Ahai.

That's the first of several red flags that something's askew with the whole red god religion.
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:57 AM   #2030
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Just a thought here ...

While there is some variability, seasons in Westeros (and Essos, for that matter) aren't completely unpredictable. It's not at all uncommon for a summer to last twice as long as we'd expect, followed almost invariably by a winter of proportionate length.

For the most part, over the past several thousand years, the length of seasons has been moderate enough to permit the development of agriculture and the growth of civilization.

So what would happen if someone could magically extend a summer period - say for ten years or so? It would be like pulling back a bowstring, wouldn't it? Because at some point, it's got to give, and when it does, winter comes back with a vengeance. All part of nature's balance. Action and reaction.

Do we know of anyone in Westeros who is so accomplished in nature magic that they could affect the seasons themselves?

Because if someone fits that bill, we may have our answer to who's making sure that winter is coming long and hard.

Hint. Hint. Hint.
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Old 05-02-2014, 07:11 AM   #2031
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Who cares?

Please quit b****ing anytime anything deviates from the books. They don't have the time or money and are doing a terrific job.

I'll admit sometimes fans of the novels do go a little over the top with the complaints of the variations. But, there are some valid complaints when the series deviates and it significantly weaken the narrative.

The show-runners need to make changes to adapt the series. We should commend them when those changes work (like replacing Ilyn Payne with Bronn as Jaimie's sparring partner) but we should likewise criticize the changes that don't work and weaken the narrative (like Jaimie raping his sister)
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Old 05-02-2014, 08:15 AM   #2032
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PS. The show people AND Nickolaj all thought they were portraying the book the same way. It came off much more rapey, but apparently not the intent.

And Orlando Franklin came off as a guy with stone feet in the Superbowl, I'm sure that wasn't his intent either. All this tells me is that they fail at execution as well as planning.
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Old 05-02-2014, 09:50 AM   #2033
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I do think you're reading too far into it on far too superficial of a level.

That assumes the winter brings the Others and not vice versa. He's left a substantial volume of hints indicating that its the Others that bring the cold. He's also stated the wonky seasons are magic and will be explained in the last book.

Here's a decent read from a Tor blog on the seasons:



http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/05/how...f-ice-and-fire


...
Interesting blog but, as the author of that article recognizes, Martin has already said it's magic:

The most conspicuous aspect of the world of Westeros in The Song of Ice and Fire is the nature of the seasons, the long and random nature of the seasons. I have gotten a number of fan letters over the years from readers who are trying to figure out the reason for why the seasons are the way they are. They develop lengthy theories: perhaps it’s a multiple-star system, and what the axial tilt is, but I have to say, “Nice try, guys, but you’re thinking in the wrong direction.” This is a fantasy series. I am going to explain it all eventually, but it’s going to be a fantasy explanation. It’s not going to be a science-fiction explanation.

- See http://weirdtalesmagazine.com/2007/0....Gm21KaPR.dpuf

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Old 05-02-2014, 11:14 AM   #2034
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As soon as someone highlights a part of the narrative that's actually weaker and why, then we'll give it credence.

For now, complaints have been completely unsubstantial.

PS. The show people AND Nickolaj all thought they were portraying the book the same way. It came off much more rapey, but apparently not the intent.
That's hard to do considering since the series isn't completed, how can we know what is hurting the narrative.

Here is my one example that caused the TV audience to question what the hell was going on. When Robb married Jeyne Westerling, it was dumb but it also had the strategic advantage of giving a legitimate foothold in the West which they acknowledge several times in the book. In the TV show, he is just plain dumb.

It is things like that that distract from the narrative when a change wasn't necessary. There are understandable changes: budget (blackwater bay), needing to keep a character active (Theon), an ancillary character (Strong Belwas), fixes to the novel (I'm sure we'll see those shortly). Then there are ones that cause more confusion for the audience: Robb/Jeyne/Talisa fiasco, Warlock's Tower (just poorly written and forced in Drogo when he didn't need to be there).

Regarding the rape scene, I've read similar so I'm starting to think Lena Headey was supposed to make it appear more consensual but she doesn't quite having the acting chops to pull that off.
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Old 05-02-2014, 11:45 AM   #2035
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Who cares?

Here's all that matters:

- Bran will get free (Jojen might get more wounded since it heads down the same path)

- The mutineers will die

Ultimately, NOTHING changes aside from a tiny detail that readers are desperately clinging to because they want to believe Coldhands has some tie to all of our beloved Ned Start.

This way, we got additional insight into the Others AND it might be Bloodraven using some of his powers to save Bran and co, so we might get more Bloodraven insight too.

Please quit b****ing anytime anything deviates from the books. They don't have the time or money and are doing a terrific job.
Was I b****ing? I clearly said I'm not sure how I feel about the departures.
I know its not going to change the overarching plot.
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:23 PM   #2036
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^ Yeah I bolded that intentionally because I think it runs pretty counter to your balance proposition. No matter.

Also, other cool concepts:

1. Rhllor is also the Great Other - really plays into Martin's duality theme

2. The Great Other is the good guy, Rhllor is the bad guy (who's the one demanding human sacrifices, burnings, slavery, etc?)
I totally agree that Rh'llor is an SOB (assuming he exists). Not so sure that the Others are "good guys," however. They are, after all, murdering people and raising the corpses in order to murder more people. I don't see any of them contributing to charities, healing the sick or feeding the hungry. (Although they do seem to sponsor an orphanage for Craster's Kids.)

But you're talking about "The Great Other" - presumably Bloodraven. Yeah, I'll concede it's possible that his interests are more benevolent. But let's not forget that he's also steeped in sacrificial blood magic. The Weirwoods, among other things, are sacrificial altars. One of the "extras" for the season 1 DVD set had a feature on the CotF and made it fairly clear that they were into blood magic.

My take on it is that the CotF learned long ago, back when they reached a treaty with the First Men, who they assimilated into Weirwood worship, that humans could be manipulated through religion.

Didn't work so hot in the later invasion by the Andals - who held onto their own religion - the Seven. And the CotF got their butts kicked. The whole Isle of Trees was destroyed. That's like nuking Mecca or the Vatican.

It's after that when we have the land bridge destroyed, the middle of Westeros flooded to form a bottleneck, and eventually the Long Night which does a lot of damage, but doesn't quite k/o humanity.

I think Rh'llor (and Azor Ahai, for that matter) is nothing more than a false construct of the CotF, used to manipulate humanity, much as the CotF have done at least once before.

It's pretty much the same stuff. Blood magic. Sacrifice. Visions and Prophesies. Elemental Magic. Raising the Dead (Beric) and Partially Dead (Victarion) and Undead (Kat).

I'll admit that there are some things I'm having a hard time fitting into that theory.

One of the things that bugs me is the Obsidian Weapons. I've been under the impression that the 3EC helped Sam find these things. Maybe that's wrong. But why would he supply Men with the tools to kill the Others? Seems like that would run counter to the big plan.
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:42 PM   #2037
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Not pointing out you or anyone in this thread, really. Just the general theme.

Mostly, I'm just so sick of "OMG this part wasn't exactly like the book". FFS, this is a GOOD THING for people who have already experienced the story 1+ times.
This.

I'm even more stoked to watch on Sunday, because the show runners are stretching their wings (pun intended)..

I LOVE not knowing what's going to happen next!
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:25 PM   #2038
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Really enjoying reading through all your theories Rev, OD & others. Keep em coming. I like to think I'm pretty immersed in the ASOIAF universe and you've brought ideas to my attention that I've never really considered, namely the Aegon Blackfyre train of thought.
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:34 PM   #2039
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Is Varys a Targaryen?
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Old 05-02-2014, 04:43 PM   #2040
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Is Varys a Targaryen?

There's a theory that says he's somehow related to the Targaryens through the Blackfyres, but it's also possible that he really is just doing what he considers best for the realm in the long run.

Or it could be both.

There's no particular reason for him to lie to Kevan as Kevan is dying, and he explains that he wants to see a King who has been properly raised and educated and will do better and more humane job of managing things. That would supposedly be Prince Aegon.
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Old 05-02-2014, 05:22 PM   #2041
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I would say that OD has out geeked TJ and Rev on this thread. I vote would we rename him ColdDude and move forward.
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Old 05-02-2014, 09:19 PM   #2042
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Alright guys. I'm about halfway through ASoS. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but I figured I would bring it up. Has to do with R + L = J.

So I'm reading the chapter where Arya is talking to Edric/Ned Dayne. Its said Ned has that silvery/blonde hair and purple eyes which just shouts "Targaryen" to me. Ned also says that he and Jon nursed from the same woman, Wylla.

My first thought was they're brothers, but Ned is only 12 years old and Jon is 14/15. So what is Ned's place in the R + L = J theory? Is he some kind of half-brother or cousin to Jon? Is this Wylla part of some group trying to preserve the Targ bloodline? The Wylla connection, and Targaryen traits, seem like too big of a coincidence to me.

And I'm not finished with ASoS, so no major spoilers por favor.

If you can't answer without spoilers then don't bother.

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Old 05-02-2014, 10:39 PM   #2043
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Spiderman was ****ing awesome
Agreed. Went in with very low expectations because the reviews have not been good, but it was highly enjoyable.
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Old 05-02-2014, 10:49 PM   #2044
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the first one was great, but I am tired of the origin stories.
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Old 05-03-2014, 12:19 AM   #2045
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Spiderman was ****ing awesome
I'm surprised by your enthusiasm for such a minor bloodline, as House Webber can attest to being.

I'm also curious as to how watching the hipster reboot of Spiderman's sequel was an impetus to posting your praise for it in this particular thread.

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Old 05-03-2014, 05:56 AM   #2046
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Alright guys. I'm about halfway through ASoS. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but I figured I would bring it up. Has to do with R + L = J.

So I'm reading the chapter where Arya is talking to Edric/Ned Dayne. Its said Ned has that silvery/blonde hair and purple eyes which just shouts "Targaryen" to me. Ned also says that he and Jon nursed from the same woman, Wylla.

My first thought was they're brothers, but Ned is only 12 years old and Jon is 14/15. So what is Ned's place in the R + L = J theory? Is he some kind of half-brother or cousin to Jon? Is this Wylla part of some group trying to preserve the Targ bloodline? The Wylla connection, and Targaryen traits, seem like too big of a coincidence to me.

And I'm not finished with ASoS, so no major spoilers por favor.

If you can't answer without spoilers then don't bother.
My main issue with the R+L=J theory is Ned Stark's actions locating Robert's bastards. He goes through a lot of trouble for this issue when he has suspicion the previous hand of the king was killed for looking into the same thing. Yet, if the theory is true, why go through all the trouble of finding the bastards because, wouldn't Jon have the most legitimacy as the next rightful king?
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Old 05-03-2014, 09:34 AM   #2047
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My main issue with the R+L=J theory is Ned Stark's actions locating Robert's bastards. He goes through a lot of trouble for this issue when he has suspicion the previous hand of the king was killed for looking into the same thing. Yet, if the theory is true, why go through all the trouble of finding the bastards because, wouldn't Jon have the most legitimacy as the next rightful king?
I suppose it depends on whether or not Rhaegar wed Lyanna. If he didn't Jon is still a bastard either way. Or maybe they did wed and Ned was trying to avoid a huge war, which surely would have happend if he tried to put Jon on the throne, bastard or not.

I can't remember exactly but I think Jon Arryn suspected that Joff/Tommen/Myrcella weren't Robert's children. So he looked for the bastards to see what they looked like and whether or not they favored Cersei's kids. If they didn't it would lend credence to his suspicions that Joff and the others weren't Robert's. I don't think Ned had any intention of putting any of them on the throne. He was just following Arryn's trail. He ended up supporting Stannis' claim in the end.

EDIT: I don't think Jon would have a claim either way since the Targ's were deposed. At least not anymore than Dany does. Assuming he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna; the only thing going public with the fact would do is unite the kingdoms to kill Jon most likely.

EDIT2: Also, if Rhaegar is Jon's father and he did wed Lyanna, this makes Jon the heir to the Targ throne and not Dany right?

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Old 05-03-2014, 02:18 PM   #2048
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I suppose it depends on whether or not Rhaegar wed Lyanna. If he didn't Jon is still a bastard either way. Or maybe they did wed and Ned was trying to avoid a huge war, which surely would have happend if he tried to put Jon on the throne, bastard or not.

I can't remember exactly but I think Jon Arryn suspected that Joff/Tommen/Myrcella weren't Robert's children. So he looked for the bastards to see what they looked like and whether or not they favored Cersei's kids. If they didn't it would lend credence to his suspicions that Joff and the others weren't Robert's. I don't think Ned had any intention of putting any of them on the throne. He was just following Arryn's trail. He ended up supporting Stannis' claim in the end.

EDIT: I don't think Jon would have a claim either way since the Targ's were deposed. At least not anymore than Dany does. Assuming he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna; the only thing going public with the fact would do is unite the kingdoms to kill Jon most likely.

EDIT2: Also, if Rhaegar is Jon's father and he did wed Lyanna, this makes Jon the heir to the Targ throne and not Dany right?
That was my thinking. I had it in my head that Rhaegar had married Lyanna and had Jon. Which I believe would make Jon the more credible Targaryan heir. I think Dany's main claim is that she believes she is the last Targaryan. she was little more than a bargaining chip when her brother was alive, because she wasn't a legitimate possible successor.

I think if there were another male child of Rhaegar I think that child regardless of age would be the rightful heir. It seems in the GOT series that the male offspring are the only ones who are born into the line of succession. Females are not counted. So if Jon is Rhaegar's than his claim trumps Dany's
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Old 05-03-2014, 03:29 PM   #2049
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That was my thinking. I had it in my head that Rhaegar had married Lyanna and had Jon. Which I believe would make Jon the more credible Targaryan heir. I think Dany's main claim is that she believes she is the last Targaryan. she was little more than a bargaining chip when her brother was alive, because she wasn't a legitimate possible successor.

I think if there were another male child of Rhaegar I think that child regardless of age would be the rightful heir. It seems in the GOT series that the male offspring are the only ones who are born into the line of succession. Females are not counted. So if Jon is Rhaegar's than his claim trumps Dany's
Will be interesting to see where GRRM goes with this. I can't see Jon on the throne personally. Wouldn't surprise me to see him get 86'd in some epic battle in the north or something. I haven't even finished ASoS yet but the wait for the next book will be hell.

Wake me up when TWoW is here.

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Old 05-03-2014, 04:17 PM   #2050
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. I haven't even finished ASoS yet but the wait for the next book will be hell.

Wake me up when TWoW is here.

Welcome to my reality. I am all for organizing some sort of armed militia to sit guard while Martin cranks out the remainder of the story. Maybe the dude in Nevada is up for it.
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