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Old 04-11-2013, 04:32 AM   #1251
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Little Finger does what he does for one reason and one reason only: to acquire power.
He plays the game of thrones. I believe his ultimate desire is to place a puppet on the throne that he controls.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:53 AM   #1252
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It's all about being a joke when he was young. He lost his love in embarassing, ass-whoopin' style. People crapped on him because he was a nobody with nothing, and thus viewed him as somebody never to be worth a crap.

He's an angry and bitter man out to screw everyone and everything in his internalized rage.
I WOULD agree to this, but Lysa never crapped on him and well... look how that worked out.

Littlefingers ambitions and end game are still very murky water. Varys' not nearly as much, though there's still quite a bit that confuses me about his work: SPOILER: ( If Varys is trying to keep Westeros destabilized for Dany or Aegon--depending on whichever "dragon" you think he's backing--as evidenced by killing Kevan Lannister, why is one of his veryyyyyyy few genuine moments when he's trying to convince Ned to take the black and keep Westeros in tact? Only think that currently makes sense without accounting for inconsistency is that he just learned that from that moment and now is trying to place the RIGHT person on it )

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:33 AM   #1253
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I WOULD agree to this, but Lysa never crapped on him and well... look how that worked out.

Littlefingers ambitions and end game are still very murky water. Varys' not nearly as much, though there's still quite a bit that confuses me about his work: SPOILER: ( If Varys is trying to keep Westeros destabilized for Dany or Aegon--depending on whichever "dragon" you think he's backing--as evidenced by killing Kevan Lannister, why is one of his veryyyyyyy few genuine moments when he's trying to convince Ned to take the black and keep Westeros in tact? Only think that currently makes sense without accounting for inconsistency is that he just learned that from that moment and now is trying to place the RIGHT person on it )
SPOILER: ( Didn't he suggest killing Ned? "If one hand can die, why not another" or something similar? I know that putting a dragon on the throne is what Varys says he wants, but I'm not convinced that's true.

As far as trying to save Ned, he may have genuinely liked him, and was trying to incite the rebellion without killing Ned. Telling him about keeping Westeros intact may have been his attempt to convince Ned to save himself, the only way to do that would be to give him a reason to believe that living was more honorable than dying.

Also, there's a completely bonkers theory regarding that exchange that also has to do with several characters noticing that Ned's bones don't seem to be the right size, and Sansa noting that the head on the spike didn't really look like her father.

I think we have a lot to learn about Varys still.
)
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:39 AM   #1254
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On the spider SPOILER: ( I'm not sure he's pulling strings to back the dragon. He's largely been for every move that keeps the Realm stable (or at least as he believes at the time). He wasn't for Ned's death and was just as shocked as everyone when it happened - a critical blunder. He backed Joffrey for continuity and then backed Tyrion seeing him as a stabilizing force. He probably at least knew about Joff's death - if didn't do it himself, once it was clear he was basically another mad king. These and other moves are of someone who wants a stable Realm, not a divided one. My question is why? Why is he so married to the Realm? And I still don't get what Littlefinger's endgame is. )
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:44 AM   #1255
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I WOULD agree to this, but Lysa never crapped on him and well... look how that worked out.

See, I would say Lysa crapped on him as well.

SPOILER: ( She didn't stand up to her father about marrying him, and she allowed them to abort his son. She could have eloped if Peter meant anything to her. I'm positive he hates her for her weakness as much as those that forced her to toe the family line. )

As for Varys, I agree. It's hard for me to believe such a complex character would only want something as simple as a quality ruler on the throne. There must be more to it yet unrevealed.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:47 AM   #1256
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On the spider SPOILER: ( I'm not sure he's pulling strings to back the dragon. He's largely been for every move that keeps the Realm stable (or at least as he believes at the time). He wasn't for Ned's death and was just as shocked as everyone when it happened - a critical blunder. He backed Joffrey for continuity and then backed Tyrion seeing him as a stabilizing force. He probably at least knew about Joff's death - if didn't do it himself, once it was clear he was basically another mad king. These and other moves are of someone who wants a stable Realm, not a divided one. My question is why? Why is he so married to the Realm? And I still don't get what Littlefinger's endgame is. )
SPOILER: ( I agree with what you said about him keeping the realm in tact, yet he just came back, killed Kevan Lannister because he [paraphrasing] "couldn't allow him to fix all the schisms Cersei's built into the realm". Completely undercuts the rest. )
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:49 AM   #1257
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Originally Posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
See, I would say Lysa crapped on him as well.

SPOILER: ( She didn't stand up to her father about marrying him, and she allowed them to abort his son. She could have eloped if Peter meant anything to her. I'm positive he hates her for her weakness as much as those that forced her to toe the family line. )

As for Varys, I agree. It's hard for me to believe such a complex character would only want something as simple as a quality ruler on the throne. There must be more to it yet unrevealed.

SPOILER: ( There's a pretty popular theory that Varys, himself, is a Targ and its one of the reasons he keeps his head shaved. And of course theres a great one about Tyrion being the result of the Mad King raping Tywin's wife. )
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:22 AM   #1258
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SPOILER: ( I agree with what you said about him keeping the realm in tact, yet he just came back, killed Kevan Lannister because he [paraphrasing] "couldn't allow him to fix all the schisms Cersei's built into the realm". Completely undercuts the rest. )
Then why did he try to kill Denarys? Wasn't that his idea? There's nothing in the show or books to suggest he sabbotaged the attempt. I'm not sure he's even aware Ser Jorah was with her. Unless SPOILER: ( He doesn't support Targaryen's genericly but is in fact specifically supportive of Aegon only. Which would make Denarys a threat in some kind of measure. )

Still, that raises even more questions about why he gives such a flying crap about it. That's a lot of trouble to go through - for what?
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:25 AM   #1259
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Then why did he try to kill Denarys? Wasn't that his idea? There's nothing in the show or books to suggest he sabbotaged the attempt. I'm not sure he's even aware Ser Jorah was with her. Unless SPOILER: ( He doesn't support Targaryen's genericly but is in fact specifically supportive of Aegon only. Which would make Denarys a threat in some kind of measure. )

Still, that raises even more questions about why he gives such a flying crap about it. That's a lot of trouble to go through - for what?
SPOILER: ( My main issue with the Aegon/Blackfyre and Illyrio and Varys supporting him is why would they give Dany the dragon eggs instead of him, then? )
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:29 AM   #1260
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SPOILER: ( My main issue with the Aegon/Blackfyre and Illyrio and Varys supporting him is why would they give Dany the dragon eggs instead of him, then? )
SPOILER: ( Even when Varys is revealing his reasons to Kevan after shooting him, they seem to be largely practical - Aegon is more well rounded, has seen the low-life, been trained from birth, could be a warrior or scholar, etc. You could argue he really just honestly thinks he would be a good king and have a legitimate claim and therefore is "best for the Realm" which would be consistent with his other actions. He doesn't go into a tirade about revenge or loyalty. )
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:40 AM   #1261
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SPOILER: ( My main issue with the Aegon/Blackfyre and Illyrio and Varys supporting him is why would they give Dany the dragon eggs instead of him, then? )
SPOILER: ( I forgot that Varys had a hand in giving her the eggs. Did he think they wouldn't hatch, maybe? He must be up to something else. )
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:46 AM   #1262
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I WOULD agree to this, but Lysa never crapped on him and well... look how that worked out.

Littlefingers ambitions and end game are still very murky water. Varys' not nearly as much, though there's still quite a bit that confuses me about his work: SPOILER: ( If Varys is trying to keep Westeros destabilized for Dany or Aegon--depending on whichever "dragon" you think he's backing--as evidenced by killing Kevan Lannister, why is one of his veryyyyyyy few genuine moments when he's trying to convince Ned to take the black and keep Westeros in tact? Only think that currently makes sense without accounting for inconsistency is that he just learned that from that moment and now is trying to place the RIGHT person on it )
Lysa's only crime was not being her sister...that and being cruel to her sisters daughter.

Still very much linked to Lady Stark.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:32 AM   #1263
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I WOULD agree to this, but Lysa never crapped on him and well... look how that worked out.

Littlefingers ambitions and end game are still very murky water. Varys' not nearly as much, though there's still quite a bit that confuses me about his work: SPOILER: ( If Varys is trying to keep Westeros destabilized for Dany or Aegon--depending on whichever "dragon" you think he's backing--as evidenced by killing Kevan Lannister, why is one of his veryyyyyyy few genuine moments when he's trying to convince Ned to take the black and keep Westeros in tact? Only think that currently makes sense without accounting for inconsistency is that he just learned that from that moment and now is trying to place the RIGHT person on it )
Spoiler: (Most likely, the timing wasn't yet right for the destabilization. A few years later, that had all changed.)
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:40 AM   #1264
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SPOILER: ( My main issue with the Aegon/Blackfyre and Illyrio and Varys supporting him is why would they give Dany the dragon eggs instead of him, then? )
Spoiler: (Maybe he knew the dragons needed a "mother" to hatch them. Or that some horrible sacrifice would be required - and they want to keep Aegon innocent, or at least fertile. Or that they were worried that they couldn't hide dragons on Westereos.)
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:55 AM   #1265
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SPOILER: ( Now that I think about it, weren't the eggs considered basically nothing more than pretty rocks? No one thought they could hatch, because magic had been disappearing from the world. In fact, Varys hates magic, so I don't think any part of his plan included depending on magic to give one of his pawns an absurd amount of power.

I'm guessing that giving Dany to Drogo was basically his way of getting rid of Dany and Viserys, making room for Aegon.
)
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:50 PM   #1266
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I dont think anyone had any clue what would happen with the eggs would happen that way. From the way I understood it, the dragon eggs were very rare, since it had been 1k years since a dragon was even seen. So these fossilzed eggs were something like a giant gold nugget. They were valuable because they were rare.

It was not until the witch doctor killed off drogo and the stallion that would mount the earth, and khaleesi not burning her hand that she kind of put two and two together, IMO. An completely unexpected turnabout.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:51 PM   #1267
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SPOILER: ( Now that I think about it, weren't the eggs considered basically nothing more than pretty rocks? No one thought they could hatch, because magic had been disappearing from the world. In fact, Varys hates magic, so I don't think any part of his plan included depending on magic to give one of his pawns an absurd amount of power.

I'm guessing that giving Dany to Drogo was basically his way of getting rid of Dany and Viserys, making room for Aegon.
)
The first part of that is certainly possible. Not so sure about the second. I'm sure some plans changed over the course of time since no one short of a diviner could really have dealt with all the variables.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:26 PM   #1268
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What an intriguing thread. It turned from a discussion about fantasy series and the epicness of the TV series, but now I just see a bunch of "Spoiler" phrases, some parentheses, and a bunch of blank space; yet for some reason I yearn to keep clicking the thread to see who posted which blank spaces.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:45 PM   #1269
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The first part of that is certainly possible. Not so sure about the second. I'm sure some plans changed over the course of time since no one short of a diviner could really have dealt with all the variables.
SPOILER: ( He knew the entire time that Aegon was in hiding, being trained. It wouldn't be hard for him to see that other surviving Targaryens might be an impediment to Aegon gaining the throne. Also, assuming he had ever spent any time around Viserys, it would not be a stretch for him to assume that placing him with the Dothraki would lead to his death.

I'm not sure about it or anything, but it seems to make sense so far.
)
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:56 PM   #1270
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SPOILER: ( He knew the entire time that Aegon was in hiding, being trained. It wouldn't be hard for him to see that other surviving Targaryens might be an impediment to Aegon gaining the throne. Also, assuming he had ever spent any time around Viserys, it would not be a stretch for him to assume that placing him with the Dothraki would lead to his death.

I'm not sure about it or anything, but it seems to make sense so far.
)
SPOILER: ( Again, why put invaluable artifacts in his rivals hands? Even if they had never hatched, theyre worth armies. )
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:24 PM   #1271
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SPOILER: (
…………………………………………………„-~~'''''''~~--„„_
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…………………………….,~''::::::::',::::::::::::::::::::|',
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………………………………..|,: : : : : :-~~--: : ::/
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…../;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,;;;;;;;;;\. . .''|::::::::|. .,';;;;;;;;;;''-„
)
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:26 AM   #1272
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If GRRm is smart (and he is) he won't answer all of these questions. He'll leave half of them open ended so that in 100 years when people are talking about this piece of literature, they'll have as much fun as we have now theorycrafting the plot lines and characters and their intentions.
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:59 AM   #1273
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SPOILER: ( I think the hatching of the dragons rapidly changed everything making Dany a major power player. However even prior to that Varys had to know that Drogo was a potential threat to Westeros. To some degree Varys and Mopatis strike me as the sort of characters that like to keep their fingers in as many pies as possible so they are never at risk of falling out of power supporting Aerys, Dany, the ruling factions of Westeros, etc. It may be that Varys believes Ned Stark would be a valuable ally down the road against the Lannisters if he was spared and if the truly legitamate king (Aegon) returned. )
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:00 AM   #1274
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SPOILER: ( Again, why put invaluable artifacts in his rivals hands? Even if they had never hatched, theyre worth armies. )
Hmm, quite true. SPOILER: ( I just have trouble with Varys believing that the best thing for the realm could have ever been any combination of Viserys and/or Dothraki.

I can see how he would be able to predict Viserys' demise by putting him with the Dothraki, but I don't think he could have predicted Drogo's demise or the eggs hatching, so I'm not sure what the motivation would be to give Dany the eggs.

Maybe it was just a throwaway, to convince Viserys/Dany that he and Illyrio were behind them. Maybe it was to make Viserys jealous of Dany, further ensuring his death. Maybe Illyrio did it without Varys' knowledge.
)
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:10 AM   #1275
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Hmm, quite true. SPOILER: ( I just have trouble with Varys believing that the best thing for the realm could have ever been any combination of Viserys and/or Dothraki.

I can see how he would be able to predict Viserys' demise by putting him with the Dothraki, but I don't think he could have predicted Drogo's demise or the eggs hatching, so I'm not sure what the motivation would be to give Dany the eggs.

Maybe it was just a throwaway, to convince Viserys/Dany that he and Illyrio were behind them. Maybe it was to make Viserys jealous of Dany, further ensuring his death. Maybe Illyrio did it without Varys' knowledge.
)
SPOILER: ( Drogo only seemed to play lip service to the notion of actually sailing over to Westeros until the assassination. Also, it seems like the Khal's come and go since they are always fighting each other. Of course the big hole in that is that Varys encouraged the assassination attempt, didn't he? )
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