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Old 08-06-2008, 12:11 AM   #3076
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Just as great poets, great players become obsessed with metrics and craftwork. Just as great poets, great players become less interested in meeting the demands of their generation of popular culture.
I think you become obsessed with growth if you're a real artist. You're never content to repeat yourself or to keep mining the same familiar, safe, comfortable niches. You're always looking for more information, more colors to add to your palette, more words and phrases to add to your vocabulary, more undiscovered country...

The trouble with this mindset, obviously, is that you often arouse the enmity of the traditionalists and the purists and the taste makers who would codify and classify everything.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:15 AM   #3077
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Allan Whosworth "inside joke with LA" ... yes i know who he is


heheh


Yep - you know who he is because you're a musician and a vocalist who works with guitar players.

Were that not that case, chances are you would have never heard of him, I'd wager.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:18 AM   #3078
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Yep - you know who he is because you're a musician and a vocalist who works with guitar players.

Were that not that case, chances are you would have never heard of him, I'd wager.
absolutely ... and it is a crime / shame more don't know who he is ...
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:29 AM   #3079
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As a matter of fact, it's ironic that you are slamming session players in general and the members of Toto in particular here when you just posted a Youtube video of "Talk To You Later" by the Tubes (one of The Tubes' biggest hits and one of your favorites, if I recall.)

Do you not realize that "Talk to You Later" is a Steve Lukather song? .
So? The Tubes performed it (prodded by Capitol records to use outside writers as a condition to them signing with them, since they didn't sniff the charts on A&M) Toto didn't..that's the difference. If Lukather or Toto has a version of it somewhere, I haven't heard it, but would like to as it probably would be better than their usual output was...then again, maybe not.

As for the rest of your blather, wake me when you're done.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:31 AM   #3080
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Allan Whosworth "inside joke with LA" ... yes i know who he is

heheh
Here's a good one for you:

A couple months ago I spoke to Carl Verheyen, who is a first-call studio guitarist in L.A. Carl mentioned that he was working on the new Hannah Montana record. I sort of chuckled and didn't think much of it at the time - just another "money gig," right? Anyway, a few days later, I took Carl's new concert DVD "Rumor Mill" over to a friend's house to watch with some buddies. Upon hearing Carl's guitar playing, my friend's ten year-old daughter (an aspiring vocalist who thinks Hannah Montana walks on water) remarked "this guy sucks!"

Surprised, I asked her "what would you say if I told you you this guy played most of the guitars on Hannah Montana's new record?"

She was silent for the longest time (you could see the gears turning) and then she exclaimed "cool! He ROCKS!"

That concludes lesson one/music business 101.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:32 AM   #3081
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Whereas you are little more than a bedroom player who is content to sit on the sidelines and criticize the works of others (from a musically uneducated and purely pop-cultural POV.)
Yeah, whatever you say there merc.

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I don't think there's anything unhealthy or wrong with having a difference of opinion where matters of aesthetics are concerned.

It's when people start thinking their opinions are more than subjective and try to be taste makers or fashion police that the trouble starts, IMO.
You should know, you do it all the time and don't even realize it.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:38 AM   #3082
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So? The Tubes performed it (prodded by Capitol records to use outside writers as a condition to them signing with them, since they didn't sniff the charts on A&M) Toto didn't..that's the difference. If Lukather or Toto has a version of it somewhere, I haven't heard it, but would like to as it probably would be better than their usual output was...then again, maybe not.
Hello?

Lukather wrote the tune and played all the guitars on it!

BTW, this wouldn't be the first time Lukather has collaborated with Fee Waybill (who co-wrote some Toto tunes.)

Anyway, I was just wondering how your claims about studio musicians in general and Toto in particular jibed with your professed love for The Tubes, et al.

I guess now I know.

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As for the rest of your blather, wake me when you're done.
Nah, go ahead and sleep through music class - it's a prerequisite for being a rock critic.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:42 AM   #3083
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absolutely ... and it is a crime / shame more don't know who he is ...
I know of him primarily by UK (which wasn't bad) and Soft Machine (which I didn't care for after Third), but that's about it.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:47 AM   #3084
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Hello?

Lukather wrote the tune and played all the guitars on it!

BTW, this wouldn't be the first time Lukather has collaborated with Fee Waybill (who co-wrote some Toto tunes.)

Anyway, I was just wondering how your claims about studio musicians in general and Toto in particular jibed with your professed love for The Tubes, et al.

I guess now I know.
Again so? I asked if he or Toto performed a version of it. As for the "jibing" I already explained that was more of Capitol's doing....besides I perfer the earlier Tubes anyways and lost interest with Outside Inside, so there ya go



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Nah, go ahead and sleep through music class - it's a prerequisite for being a rock critic.
Music class huh? and you call me a snob....
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:47 AM   #3085
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You should know, you do it all the time and don't even realize it.
That's bullsh*t.

For the most part, when it comes to music I don't like, (and there is always a LOT of music I don't like on this thread) I adopt the "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" policy.

All you have to do is read this thread from the top to confirm this.

I have always maintained that "in matters of taste, there can be no dispute," and I certainly have never pretended my personal musical perceptions, opinions, or tastes were objective "truths" as you do.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:48 AM   #3086
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I know of him primarily by UK (which wasn't bad) and Soft Machine (which I didn't care for after Third), but that's about it.


yea i know who he is through it being pushed on me by guitar players ... I aint a big fan or anything but i can judge talent pretty well and dude is bad@$$...
I like a lot of different stuff if i listed my ipod list i would get laughed at ...
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:52 AM   #3087
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Again so? I asked if he or Toto performed a version of it. As for the "jibing" I already explained that was more of Capitol's doing....besides I perfer the earlier Tubes anyways and lost interest with Outside Inside, so there ya go
You just posted a Youtube video of the song (which you cited as a personal favorite.)

You then went on the attack against studio musicians in general and Toto in particular, broad brushing them all as soulless, uncreative robots who are only capable of playing others' music or what they are told to play.

I then pointed out that Steve Lukather (guitarist from Toto/studio legend) wrote and played the guitars on the tune you just cited as a favorite.

You don't see any irony here?


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Music class huh? and you call me a snob....
Pointing out your contradictions isn't snobbery.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:52 AM   #3088
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That's bullsh*t.

For the most part, when it comes to music I don't like, (and there is always a LOT of music I don't like on this thread) I adopt the "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" policy.

All you have to do is read this thread from the top to confirm this.

I have always maintained that "in matters of taste, there can be no dispute," and I certainly have never pretended my personal musical perceptions, opinions, or tastes were objective "truths" as you do.
Yeah sure, you just dismiss those you don't agree with as "taste makers", "traditionalists", "purists", "snobs", "fashion police", "musically uneducated", "Bedroom player", "pop-cultural" and on and on and on......
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:56 AM   #3089
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yea i know who he is through it being pushed on me by guitar players ... I aint a big fan or anything but i can judge talent pretty well and dude is bad@$$...
I like a lot of different stuff if i listed my ipod list i would get laughed at ...
I stumbled into UK by following John Wetton over from King Crimson. I thought it was a pretty cool outfit, much better than Asia that he left it for. However, I was never a fan of E. Jobson's violin.
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:01 AM   #3090
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Yeah sure, you just dismiss those you don't agree with as "taste makers", "traditionalists", "purists", "snobs", "fashion police", "musically uneducated", "Bedroom player", "pop-cultural" and on and on and on......
I don't dismiss you because you don't agree with me or because you don't share my tastes in music - (that's a straw man argument if I ever heard one) I dismiss you because you are a musical snob who seems to see himself as some sort of musical taste maker or fashion policeman. I dismiss you because it's abundantly clear that, while you know a lot about pop culture and music trivia, you (like most critics) know very little about music. (Case in point: your statement that the musicians in Toto can't "see beyond scales" or whatever that inane comment was.)
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:07 AM   #3091
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You just posted a Youtube video of the song (which you cited as a personal favorite.)

You then went on the attack against studio musicians in general and Toto in particular, broad brushing them all as soulless, uncreative robots who are only capable of playing others' music or what they are told to play.

I then pointed out that Steve Lukather (guitarist from Toto/studio legend) wrote and played the guitars on the tune you just cited as a favorite.

You don't see any irony here?
You're twisting things a bit here, but that's typical of you. If you go back and read the post, I said Toto tried to do something creative (i.e. like recording artists) by writing and performing their own material. I didn't find that stuff to be all that great to put it mildly (although it scored big on the charts) but they at least tried. The only other thing I said was that if session work was the scale of measurement, Toto would rule the world. In the rest of that paragraph I was not alluding to Toto, but you take it any way you want to (you will anyways).

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Pointing out your contradictions isn't snobbery.
Pointing out my supposed contradictions? Meh..okay, let's say it's arrogance then.

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Old 08-06-2008, 01:12 AM   #3092
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You're twisting things a bit here, but that's typical of you. If you go back and read the post, I said Toto tried to do something creative (i.e. like recording artists) by writing and performing their own material. I didn't find that stuff to be all that great to put it mildly (although it scored big on the charts) but they at least tried. The only other thing I said was that if session work was the scale of measurement, Toto would rule the world. In the rest of that paragraph I was not alluding to Toto, but you take it any way you want to (you will anyways).
That's a selective reading of your actual post.

Are you trying to deny that you broad brushed Toto and studio musicians in general as a bunch of non-creative drones?

Do I need to go back and find that part of your post so I can quote you?
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:16 AM   #3093
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I don't dismiss you because you don't agree with me or because you don't share my tastes in music - (that's a straw man argument if I ever heard one) I dismiss you because you are a musical snob who seems to see himself as some sort of musical taste maker or fashion policeman. I dismiss you because it's abundantly clear that, while you know a lot about pop culture and music trivia, you (like most critics) know very little about music. (Case in point: your statement that the musicians in Toto can't "see beyond scales" or whatever that inane comment was.)
Yeah that's it...I see myself as a tastemaker and fashion policeman

You're supposed case in point I addressed already.

and if you've "dismissed" me already, then why do you insist on continuing on with this spiel of yours?
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:42 AM   #3094
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Old 08-06-2008, 08:58 AM   #3095
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You know, its funny.

Why is it that people can be so opinionated about something relatively subjective that they bicker and fight about it like children?

The Who were wonderful. Zeppelin was a landmark.

There's no reason to toss your lot in with others (apparently the internet is for forming cliques for the lonely) to bicker one way or the other. Those bands' music stand on their own merits.
I'm agreeing with the LLama. Something is wrong here...
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:14 AM   #3096
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To claim that Hendrix is/was anything less than a minor deity is tantamount to blasphemy in some guitar circles, so I know I'm going to get flamed hard for this.

I would argue that Hendrix was overrated compared to Page, for one example. If you listen to Page's solos on that first Led Zeppelin album (which was released when Hendrix was still active) Page is playing Hendrix completely under the table on all levels musically.

Alvin Lee was another guitarist who handed Hendrix his ass at Woodstock.

Jeff Beck was another guy who could give Jimi a serious run for his money.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I don't like any of Hendrix's music or that I don't appreciate his importance in the larger scheme of the evolution of rock guitar - I'm just saying that there were guys who were already passing him by in his lifetime.

I'm not going to flame you for it, but I disagree. Of course, it's all subjective, but IMO musicians have to have something else besides technical proficiency to reach the level of (for want of a better word) master. Let's call it "voice." Alvin Lee was super fast but that was his entire schtick. Everbody watched him and went, "Gee." Small voice. They call Clapton "Slow Hand" but his "voice" has been huge over the last four decades. Hell, just listen to "Have You Heard" on the Bluesbreakers album when Eric was about 18. I love Jeff Beck's playing. He's a technical powerhouse. But his "voice" pales next to Clapton's (IMHO).

When you talk about Hendrix, you talk about a guy with a huge voice, a voice that pretty much redirected the music of his time. Even Clapton says this. I tried to explain this to a young guy at a Guitar Center once who was making the argument that Hendrix was not that big a deal (ostensibly because this kid had learned some of his licks). I realized I couldn't tell him anything, and the reason was because Hendrix invented whole "sounds" that didn't exist before he came along. Of course, they've been beaten into the ground since then by numerous folks (Trower, Vaughn, etc.) so it's impossible to get that sense of hearing it for the first time.

I remember the first Zep album coming out. We were blasting it. In fact, the drummer in our band used to blast it on his headphones while playing along (damn, he was good - had a real Keith Moon sound). I thought Page was great. I still enjoy those first few albums immensely. But do I think Page has the same stature of "voice" as Clapton and Hendrix? Nope.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:20 AM   #3097
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Just as great poets, great players become obsessed with metrics and craftwork. Just as great poets, great players become less interested in meeting the demands of their generation of popular culture.
And then you have writers like James Joyce, whose wife asked him, "Why can't you write something people can understand?"

Of course, then there are those artists on the highest plateau, like Shakespeare, who are understood across the broad spectrum of humanity but still soar with the Gods.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:33 AM   #3098
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And then you have writers like James Joyce, whose wife asked him, "Why can't you write something people can understand?"

Of course, then there are those artists on the highest plateau, like Shakespeare, who are understood across the broad spectrum of humanity but still soar with the Gods.
I can understand Joyce. IMO he's one of the greatest writers ever. What's funny, is that people had a hard time reading fin-again's wake

But really - it was easy for me when i realized he wrote it in otomatopia.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:41 AM   #3099
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I can understand Joyce. IMO he's one of the greatest writers ever. What's funny, is that people had a hard time reading fin-again's wake

But really - it was easy for me when i realized he wrote it in otomatopia.
His short story collection Dubliners is pretty accessible and (in my view) entertaining to boot. A Portrait of the Artist isn't terribly difficult either, though can get dull in spots (I've never been a big fan of the 'artist writing about his art' type of story--strikes me as masturbatory). Ulyssess and Finnegan's Wakeon the other hand...thanks, but no thanks. Maybe you can explain the latter to me one day. Scores of essayists have tried to interpret it over the decades, with minimal success.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:46 AM   #3100
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His short story collection Dubliners is pretty accessible and (in my view) entertaining to boot. A Portrait of the Artist isn't terribly difficult either, though can get dull in spots (I've never been a big fan of the 'artist writing about his art' type of story--strikes me as masturbatory). Ulyssess and Finnegan's Wakeon the other hand...thanks, but no thanks. Maybe you can explain the latter to me one day. Scores of essayists have tried to interpret it over the decades, with minimal success.

It's a dream with in a dream. It's meant to be free-associative. It's not linear.
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