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Old 08-05-2008, 04:51 AM   #3051
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Maybe they should've, would've been a helluva lot more interesting.
Interesting to whom?

Answer: Who fans who don't particularly care for Led Zeppelin.

IMO, smashing an instrument is low-rent and just plain disrespectful - that's someone's craft work and creation you're destroying.

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It's fairly easy to keep fans enthralled for three hours during a bad show when they're probably as zonked as Page was or more....hell, the Dead made a multi-decade career out of doing just that.
So fans of The Who were all tee-totalers?

If not, then I guess The Who needed more than just a 'zonked' audience to keep the fans enthralled on a bad night - they needed to bust up some guitars and drum kits to boot.

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It proves there's a sucker born every minute, if it proves anything at all....
So let me get this straight: Anyone who happened to enjoy a band or a film you dislike is a "sucker?"

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given the performance in that film and all that fantasy crap sprinkled amongst it, they should show it for free.
A lot of people (myself included) enjoyed the fantasy sequences - I get it that you were not one of them.

As quiet as it's kept, a lot of people also enjoyed Led Zeppelin's music in spite of a lot of really high-profile rock critics who said the same things (throughout most of the 70s) you are saying here.

Which brings me back to my opinion of music critics....
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Old 08-05-2008, 04:57 AM   #3052
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It proves there's a sucker born every minute, if it proves anything at all....
One more thing:

The above is always a circular argument insofar as you're talking about a band you don't particularly enjoy right from the outset.

Odds are when you're talking about your absolute favorite bands you're a lot more forgiving when it comes to sloppy or sub-par performances (you might even reference boots of some of these less-than-perfect shows as "for hardcore fans only.")
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Old 08-05-2008, 09:37 AM   #3053
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Interesting to whom?

Answer: Who fans who don't particularly care for Led Zeppelin.

IMO, smashing an instrument is low-rent and just plain disrespectful - that's someone's craft work and creation you're destroying.



So fans of The Who were all tee-totalers?

If not, then I guess The Who needed more than just a 'zonked' audience to keep the fans enthralled on a bad night - they needed to bust up some guitars and drum kits to boot.
I was speaking in general terms, not for "Who fans"....too bad you can't get past such a minor part of the band's career that you have to keep returning to it...but that's okay, I understand, it's all you have to go on.



Quote:
So let me get this straight: Anyone who happened to enjoy a band or a film you dislike is a "sucker?"



A lot of people (myself included) enjoyed the fantasy sequences - I get it that you were not one of them.
You enjoyed that stuff? Wow...

As for the sucker term...anyone who was willing to fork over cash repeatedly for substandard product knowingly released by the band
is just that. I know I wouldn't do that for acts I really liked much less ones I was lukewarm to....fool one once, shame on you...fool one twice or more and the calling one a sucker is not only allowed but justified.


Quote:
As quiet as it's kept, a lot of people also enjoyed Led Zeppelin's music in spite of a lot of really high-profile rock critics who said the same things (throughout most of the 70s) you are saying here.
Here we go with the "popularity equates to quality" thing yet again....sales don't measure everything, just look at the current charts if you need further proof of that.

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Which brings me back to my opinion of music critics....
You know, I don't often slam session men.....but if they were really all that, Toto would've been the biggest and greatest band to ever form in the history of music. All chops and no creativity must make for a pretty faceless existance, but I suppose it's the best they can do when they can't think beyond scales....of course, this is all my opinion and purly subjective
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Old 08-05-2008, 09:46 AM   #3054
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One more thing:

The above is always a circular argument insofar as you're talking about a band you don't particularly enjoy right from the outset.

Odds are when you're talking about your absolute favorite bands you're a lot more forgiving when it comes to sloppy or sub-par performances (you might even reference boots of some of these less-than-perfect shows as "for hardcore fans only.")
I said it hundreds of times for both bands and football players....I am fair, believe it or not, in all of my judgements. When it comes to sub-par performances, I call them as I see them...it may not appear that way to you, but that's the truth. These shows may very well be for completists and "hardcore fans only", but I would never recommend them or try to spin them to be other than what they are and whether I happen to be a fan of the artist in question or not, would be irrelevant in my assessment.

Whether you choose to believe that or not, is totally up to you.

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Old 08-05-2008, 11:44 AM   #3055
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I was speaking in general terms, not for "Who fans"....too bad you can't get past such a minor part of the band's career that you have to keep returning to it...but that's okay, I understand, it's all you have to go on.
The smashing of the instruments thing is not a "minor" point to me - it's such a huge turn-off that I can't take anyone who does it seriously as a musician.

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You enjoyed that stuff? Wow...
Yep.

And I would submit that just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean it sucks - it just means you don't enjoy it.

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As for the sucker term...anyone who was willing to fork over cash repeatedly for substandard product knowingly released by the band is just that.
For many hardcore fans, seeing the film was the closest they would ever get to seeing LZ in concert. And hardcore fans fork over cash for less-than-perfect recordings of their favorite bands all the time insofar as those fans are willing to endure the imperfections to avail themselves of the good parts.

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Here we go with the "popularity equates to quality" thing yet again....sales don't measure everything, just look at the current charts if you need further proof of that.
I wasn't arguing that popularity = quality - I was arguing (as usual) that "quality" is in the ear of the beholder.

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You know, I don't often slam session men.....but if they were really all that, Toto would've been the biggest and greatest band to ever form in the history of music.
The fallacy in this argument is obvious when you apply it to jazz greats. "Greatest" seldom translates to "biggest" in the music business. In fact, it's usually safe to say that the more sophisticated, ambitious, and/or challenging the music, and the more talented and/or exceptional the musician, the smaller the audience or market (at least in the U.S. anyway.) And this doesn't even take into account all of those undiscovered musicians out there who are truly great by any standard but unknown to the general public.

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All chops and no creativity must make for a pretty faceless existance...
Chops and creativity are not mutually exclusive. Anyone who says so is just repeating the same tired fallacy that if a musician is technically accomplished then everything he plays must lack soul or feeling.

In any event, if you're talking about Toto, anyone who knows anything about that band knows it was never about chops. The musicians in the group all have chops to spare, it's true, but Toto was always about songwriting, strong rhythms, grooves, melodies and hooks. None of their popular songs were shred-fests or displays of chops for their own sake.

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but I suppose it's the best they can do when they can't think beyond scales....of course, this is all my opinion and purly subjective
This opinion is not just subjective - it's so completely uninformed it's hard to know where to start when addressing it.

If the musicians in Toto are nothing but a bunch of soulless academics or studio hacks as you suggest, then why has just about every rock and pop artist on the face of the earth (including some of your favorites) hired the members of Toto to play on their records? Why have so many of the tracks Lukather, the Porcaro brothers, and David Paich cut gone on to become hits for those artists?
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:03 PM   #3056
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Yep - it's really your lowest common denominator, low-brow, unrefined, riff-bashing, proto-punk, cowboy chord-playing caveman stuff, isn't it?
Throwing in with the Drama Llama, eh? Speaking of low brow. Anyway, the Who smashed instruments a couple of times. Now, you'd think they did it every show. They didn't. I saw them at the Long Beach Auditorium. They didn't smash anything. Just put on a great show (ie. Pete wasn't so ****ed up that all he could do was turn his back on the crowd, lean against his amp and dribble out incomprehensible finger drills, as Page was known to do on occasion). Hendrix destroyed a few guitars too, as well as lighting a couple of Strats on fire. Ginger Baker once destroyed a kit on stage.

What Zep did instead was trash people. Bill Graham's famous quote about them is that Zep was the signal to him that it was time to get out of the business when they sent lawyers to talk to him instead of just picking up the phone themselves. Then, there were the infamous backstage and hotel room destructions:
Not all of the backstage stories are as amusing. Led Zeppelin emerges from the book as one of the groups whose power and wealth caused vast destruction both within the group, as well as among those unfortunate enough to be backstage when the group's entourage went on a rampage.
http://thrasherswheat.org/rns/graham.html
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:10 PM   #3057
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The smashing of the instruments thing is not a "minor" point to me - it's such a huge turn-off that I can't take anyone who does it seriously as a musician.
Oops.

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Old 08-05-2008, 06:23 PM   #3058
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The Times of London on a possible Lez Zeppelin tour:


http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle1170197.ece
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:08 PM   #3059
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The smashing of the instruments thing is not a "minor" point to me - it's such a huge turn-off that I can't take anyone who does it seriously as a musician.



Yep.

And I would submit that just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean it sucks - it just means you don't enjoy it.



For many hardcore fans, seeing the film was the closest they would ever get to seeing LZ in concert. And hardcore fans fork over cash for less-than-perfect recordings of their favorite bands all the time insofar as those fans are willing to endure the imperfections to avail themselves of the good parts.



I wasn't arguing that popularity = quality - I was arguing (as usual) that "quality" is in the ear of the beholder.



The fallacy in this argument is obvious when you apply it to jazz greats. "Greatest" seldom translates to "biggest" in the music business. In fact, it's usually safe to say that the more sophisticated, ambitious, and/or challenging the music, and the more talented and/or exceptional the musician, the smaller the audience or market (at least in the U.S. anyway.) And this doesn't even take into account all of those undiscovered musicians out there who are truly great by any standard but unknown to the general public.



Chops and creativity are not mutually exclusive. Anyone who says so is just repeating the same tired fallacy that if a musician is technically accomplished then everything he plays must lack soul or feeling.

In any event, if you're talking about Toto, anyone who knows anything about that band knows it was never about chops. The musicians in the group all have chops to spare, it's true, but Toto was always about songwriting, strong rhythms, grooves, melodies and hooks. None of their popular songs were shred-fests or displays of chops for their own sake.



This opinion is not just subjective - it's so completely uninformed it's hard to know where to start when addressing it.

If the musicians in Toto are nothing but a bunch of soulless academics or studio hacks as you suggest, then why has just about every rock and pop artist on the face of the earth (including some of your favorites) hired the members of Toto to play on their records? Why have so many of the tracks Lukather, the Porcaro brothers, and David Paich cut gone on to become hits for those artists?
and on and on and on....The defense of Toto is hilarious to say the least, but even though Toto was slick, vacuous, AOR formula hack work...at least they tried to do something on their own. I'll give them credit for that at least.

You just keep on getting that system work. Try to spin it anyway you wish but at the end of the day, most session guys are just like stuntman, pornstars or the mercs employed by Blackwater. Hired guns and robots paid to play the material of other artists because they usually cannot come up with any themselves. Don't get me wrong, that's good work if you can get it, but it's far from being the most creative job in the world.
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:11 PM   #3060
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Throwing in with the Drama Llama, eh? Speaking of low brow.
At least Llama is in a band that's trying to do something creative in music...I'll give him credit for that at least.
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:14 PM   #3061
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....The defense of Toto is hilarious to say the least..
What's "hilarious" is that you still seem to believe that personal tastes in music (or music you don't particularly care for) for need "defending" (as though your personal tastes or perceptions were some sort of objective "truths.")

You can't seem to wrap your brain around the notion that just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean it sucks - it just means you don't like it.

(And please don't tell me I'm trying to deny you the right to your opinion because you know that's BS.)

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You just keep on getting that system work. Try to spin it anyway you wish but at the end of the day, most session guys are just like stuntman, pornstars or the mercs employed by Blackwater.
It's obvious you don't have clue one about session musicians or their careers. Your attempt to broad brush every musician who makes all or part of his living doing sessions as a "stunt man" or a "merc" is laughably naive insofar as you're referring to a pretty huge segment of the professional musical workforce (including classically-trained musicians who play with symphony orchestras, etc.) If you are trying to claim that all of these musicians are nothing more than uncreative automatons who just sit in chairs and read music all day long then you are about as uninformed as it gets. Furthermore, just because a musician earns his or her living doing sessions doesn't mean he or she is not involved in other aspects of the music business or other creative projects.

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Hired guns and robots paid to play the material of other artists because they usually cannot come up with any themselves.
You have it ass-backwards here again. Session players are usually hired to play on record dates because the artists can't cut it themselves (or because the artist is looking for creative help/input from the session player.) You'd be surprised if you knew how many tracks on well-known or popular records featured session players who were called in because some "rock star" couldn't cut it in the studio. A lot of these poseur pop stars don't really play on their own records, arrange their own music, etc. - but I know who did.

As a matter of fact, it's ironic that you are slamming session players in general and the members of Toto in particular here when you just posted a Youtube video of "Talk To You Later" by the Tubes (one of The Tubes' biggest hits and one of your favorites, if I recall.)

Do you not realize that "Talk to You Later" is a Steve Lukather song?

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Don't get me wrong, that's good work if you can get it, but it's far from being the most creative job in the world.
This is another completely clueless comment that could only come from someone who has never done session work on a professional level.

Session work can be some of the most creatively challenging work there is insofar as the musician is called upon (on a regular basis) to walk into a studio, listen to some tracks he's hearing for the first time, and come up with just the right sounds, parts, solos, or even complete arrangements right on the spot - often under pressure and with serious time constraints - and often when these tracks are make or break for an artist.

If you don't think that sort of thing requires a LOT of creativity then you are just plain naive.
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:18 PM   #3062
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At least Llama is in a band that's trying to do something creative in music...I'll give him credit for that at least.
Whereas you are little more than a bedroom player who is content to sit on the sidelines and criticize the works of others (from a musically uneducated and purely pop-cultural POV.)
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:31 PM   #3063
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Throwing in with the Drama Llama, eh? Speaking of low brow.


I'm "throwing in" with him just because I happen to agree with him on this one issue?

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Hendrix destroyed a few guitars too, as well as lighting a couple of Strats on fire. Ginger Baker once destroyed a kit on stage.
Hendrix was a drug-addled, misogynist a$$hole who beat the crap out of women (and who was vastly overrated as a guitarist, IMO.) The same thing I said about The Who applies to Hendrix and Baker in my world.

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What Zep did instead was trash people. Bill Graham's famous quote about them is that Zep was the signal to him that it was time to get out of the business when they sent lawyers to talk to him instead of just picking up the phone themselves. Then, there were the infamous backstage and hotel room destructions:
Not all of the backstage stories are as amusing. Led Zeppelin emerges from the book as one of the groups whose power and wealth caused vast destruction both within the group, as well as among those unfortunate enough to be backstage when the group's entourage went on a rampage.
http://thrasherswheat.org/rns/graham.html
You could replace "Zep" with "The Who" (or just about any other major touring act of the 70s) in most of the foregoing paragraph and still have a true statement.

I don't condone any of this sh*t - it's stupid no matter who does it.
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Old 08-05-2008, 09:43 PM   #3064
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Hendrix was vastly overrated? Compared to whom?
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:14 PM   #3065
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before i say this keep in mind i LOVE JIMMY ...

Hendrix changed the way people thought of guitar , visionary , trendsetter ...
BUT you could say overrated cause compared to most of the people who are considered guitar gods hendrix don't stack up . He was sloppy ... and not a great writer ...

I love Gilmour and Randy Rhoads to pick 2 and Hendrix is not as good as either of them ... Hell as far as cleanly picked , classic style , and speed , L.A. himself is every bit if not more the guitar player Jimmy was ... Jimmy just changed how things was thought of and done ...


Lets not confuse innovative with being really good ...

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Old 08-05-2008, 11:26 PM   #3066
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Hendrix was vastly overrated? Compared to whom?
To claim that Hendrix is/was anything less than a minor deity is tantamount to blasphemy in some guitar circles, so I know I'm going to get flamed hard for this.

I would argue that Hendrix was overrated compared to Page, for one example. If you listen to Page's solos on that first Led Zeppelin album (which was released when Hendrix was still active) Page is playing Hendrix completely under the table on all levels musically.

Alvin Lee was another guitarist who handed Hendrix his ass at Woodstock.

Jeff Beck was another guy who could give Jimi a serious run for his money.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I don't like any of Hendrix's music or that I don't appreciate his importance in the larger scheme of the evolution of rock guitar - I'm just saying that there were guys who were already passing him by in his lifetime.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:28 PM   #3067
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You know, its funny.

Why is it that people can be so opinionated about something relatively subjective that they bicker and fight about it like children?

The Who were wonderful. Zeppelin was a landmark.

There's no reason to toss your lot in with others (apparently the internet is for forming cliques for the lonely) to bicker one way or the other. Those bands' music stand on their own merits.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:31 PM   #3068
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To claim that Hendrix is/was anything less than a minor deity is tantamount to blasphemy in some guitar circles, so I know I'm going to get flamed hard for this.

I would argue that Hendrix was overrated compared to Page, for one example. If you listen to Page's solos on that first Led Zeppelin album (which was released when Hendrix was still active) Page is playing Hendrix completely under the table on all levels musically.

Alvin Lee was another guitarist who handed Hendrix his ass at Woodstock.

Jeff Beck was another guy who could give Jimi a serious run for his money.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I don't like any of Hendrix's music or that I don't appreciate his importance in the larger scheme of the evolution of rock guitar - I'm just saying that there were guys who were already passing him by in his lifetime.
You know, Hendrix himself claimed inferiority to several others including Phil Keaggy who he called the best guitar player in the world.

Chet Atkins was of a different genre, but I would take Chet's work over Jimmys.

I think that Hendrix gets his status for a couple of reasons, both of which have little to do with his performance. That doesnt negate that he was an excellent player though.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:33 PM   #3069
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im not saying he is average or anything btw ... he is great ... but i can name 50 guys easy i think play better than Jimmy Hendrix ... maybe 100 if i wrote it down ..


edit ...
but everything is a opinion ...
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:38 PM   #3070
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Hendrix changed the way people thought of guitar , visionary , trendsetter ...
BUT you could say overrated cause compared to most of the people who are considered guitar gods hendrix don't stack up . He was sloppy ... and not a great writer ...
Page and Hendrix had that sloppiness and inconsistent performance thing in common - just like the drug abuse thing (coincidence?)

However, I give the edge to Page for being more versatile, more creative/visionary, more adept at realizing his ideas in the recording studio, and superior as a guitarist on a technical level (although you could arguably give Hendrix the edge when it comes to innovation.)
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:43 PM   #3071
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Yep - it's really your lowest common denominator, low-brow, unrefined, riff-bashing, proto-punk, cowboy chord-playing caveman stuff, isn't it?
Well, its kind of frustrating if youre a guy who has loaded up the van and made the gigs for years having honed your craft to a place that is reserved for only the best of the field. Unfortunately, the music industry isnt one that values skill and artisanship as much as it does style.

When you spend years working on the skill aspect, the style becomes unimportant.

Usually, generations are defined by players who are midlevel players. Todays guitar heroes are maybe even less than that.

It is regular to see great players in front of small crowds and small players in front of great crowds.

I saw Doyle Dykes play in front of 10 people. I took my little brother to see Creed (bleh) and they packed 20,000.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:44 PM   #3072
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You know, its funny.

Why is it that people can be so opinionated about something relatively subjective that they bicker and fight about it like children?

The Who were wonderful. Zeppelin was a landmark.

There's no reason to toss your lot in with others (apparently the internet is for forming cliques for the lonely) to bicker one way or the other. Those bands' music stand on their own merits.
I don't think there's anything unhealthy or wrong with having a difference of opinion where matters of aesthetics are concerned.

It's when people start thinking their opinions are more than subjective and try to be taste makers or fashion police that the trouble starts, IMO.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:49 PM   #3073
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Well, its kind of frustrating if youre a guy who has loaded up the van and made the gigs for years having honed your craft to a place that is reserved for only the best of the field. Unfortunately, the music industry isnt one that values skill and artisanship as much as it does style.

When you spend years working on the skill aspect, the style becomes unimportant.

Usually, generations are defined by players who are midlevel players. Todays guitar heroes are maybe even less than that.

It is regular to see great players in front of small crowds and small players in front of great crowds.

I saw Doyle Dykes play in front of 10 people. I took my little brother to see Creed (bleh) and they packed 20,000.
Ding ding ding!

People who couldn't play a C major scale if you put a gun to their heads play to stadiums while people like Allan Holdsworth play to a room full of 50 G.I.T. students.

Some things never change.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:54 PM   #3074
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Ding ding ding!

People who couldn't play a C major scale if you put a gun to their heads play to stadiums while people like Allan Holdsworth play to a room full of 50 G.I.T. students.

Some things never change.


Allan Whosworth "inside joke with LA" ... yes i know who he is


heheh
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:55 PM   #3075
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Ding ding ding!

People who couldn't play a C major scale if you put a gun to their heads play to stadiums while people like Allan Holdsworth play to a room full of 50 G.I.T. students.

Some things never change.

Just as great poets, great players become obsessed with metrics and craftwork. Just as great poets, great players become less interested in meeting the demands of their generation of popular culture.
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