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Old 08-01-2008, 02:11 PM   #3001
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Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
About the only iconic piece of music Zep ever came up with was Stairway.


We'll just have to agree to disuwrong.
/

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Old 08-01-2008, 02:40 PM   #3002
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Eh, i'd rather listen to sabbath over zepplin or the who
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:28 PM   #3003
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Has anyone else here seen the Led Zep tribute band No Quarter?
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Old 08-02-2008, 12:03 AM   #3004
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I hypothesize that if you got together fifty music fans and played them licks from those two (admittedly excellent) guitarists, the fans would recognize far more of Pete's than they would Jimmy's.
You're kidding me, right?

Page is the master of the classic, immortalized riff ("Dazed and Confused," "Whole Lotta Love," "Immigrant Song," "Rock and Roll," "Black Dog," "The Ocean," "Kashmir," "Nobody's Fault But Mine," to name just a few.)

The best that can be said about Towshend as a guitarist is that he's (arguably) a strong rhythm guitarist.

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About the only iconic piece of music Zep ever came up with was Stairway..., and they stole that from Randy California.
1) How was "Stairway" stolen?

2) "Stairway" the only iconic piece?

How about "Whole Lotta Love," "Immigrant Song," "Black Dog," "Rock and Roll," and "Kashmir" for starters?
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Old 08-02-2008, 12:42 AM   #3005
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This is an exchange Roh and I had a few weeks ago in the "Sweet Guitars" thread. As I recall, Roh had thrown out the "theft" charge about Stairway, and after I posted this answer below he was all, "I can't believe you spent so much time on this response."


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Want a real eye opener? When Zep first came to the States they toured with the great California band, Spirit. Go to some tune library and listen to a Spirit tune called Taurus. I guess it's more of an ear opener.
Yes, that Spirit riff is very similar to the intro to Stairway ... but there are some differences: 'Taurus' is a string-laden easy-listening instrumental. There are no lyrics, and the only guitar part is that four-bar decending melody. In Stairway, Page uses both the descending line, and a simultaneous ASCENDING line as counterpoint.

Everybody here plays Stairway ... so here's the deal: Taurus has the melodic descending notes A, A-flat, G ... the 7th, 6th and 5th frets on the D string; but Stairway adds the ascending A, B and C ... going up the 5th, 7th, 8th frets on the the high E string. Both melodies drop from there to the D-major (although Taurus does not have the snappy little G to A-minor bang-bang resolution). Besides, the guy in Spirit supposedly agreed Jimmy could use that short snippet. In today's era of sampling, it hardly seems worth mentioning ....

BTW - Sitting here just now I realize that is also the SAME MELODY and intervals as the 1945 #1 hit by Bing Crosby and Les Paul (yes that Les Paul) called "It's Been a Long Time" ... sing it with me!
Kiss me once
Then kiss me twice
Then kiss me once again
It's been a long long time
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/war/i...nglongtime.htm


I'm serious - hum that melody and think of Stairway as you go ... actually, maybe that's where Randy California got 'Taurus' in the first place ...
.
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Old 08-02-2008, 12:43 AM   #3006
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Has anyone else here seen the Led Zep tribute band No Quarter?
These guys are about the best Zeppelin tribute band I've ever seen:

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Old 08-02-2008, 12:45 AM   #3007
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Old 08-02-2008, 12:51 AM   #3008
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I don't think The Who did more than three or four songs that match even just this one mid-level Zep song Ten Years Gone ... half a dozen tops.

And I happen to LIKE The Who.
.
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Old 08-02-2008, 12:52 AM   #3009
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This is an exchange Roh and I had a few weeks ago in the "Sweet Guitars" thread. As I recall, Roh had thrown out the "theft" charge about Stairway, and after I posted this answer below he was all, "I can't believe you spent so much time on this response."



Yes, that Spirit riff is very similar to the intro to Stairway ... but there are some differences: 'Taurus' is a string-laden easy-listening instrumental. There are no lyrics, and the only guitar part is that four-bar decending melody. In Stairway, Page uses both the descending line, and a simultaneous ASCENDING line as counterpoint.

Everybody here plays Stairway ... so here's the deal: Taurus has the melodic descending notes A, A-flat, G ... the 7th, 6th and 5th frets on the D string; but Stairway adds the ascending A, B and C ... going up the 5th, 7th, 8th frets on the the high E string. Both melodies drop from there to the D-major (although Taurus does not have the snappy little G to A-minor bang-bang resolution). Besides, the guy in Spirit supposedly agreed Jimmy could use that short snippet. In today's era of sampling, it hardly seems worth mentioning ....

BTW - Sitting here just now I realize that is also the SAME MELODY and intervals as the 1945 #1 hit by Bing Crosby and Les Paul (yes that Les Paul) called "It's Been a Long Time" ... sing it with me!
Kiss me once
Then kiss me twice
Then kiss me once again
It's been a long long time
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/war/i...nglongtime.htm


I'm serious - hum that melody and think of Stairway as you go ... actually, maybe that's where Randy California got 'Taurus' in the first place ...
.
Correct.

The chord progression that the 'A' section to "Stairway to Heaven" is based on (Ami - Ami/MA9 - Ami7 - D/F#) is a very common progression in jazz, bossa nova, pop, and rock - it certainly wasn't invented by Spirit.
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Old 08-02-2008, 12:57 AM   #3010
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I don't think The Who did more than three or four songs that match even just this one mid-level Zep song Ten Years Gone ... half a dozen tops.

And I happen to LIKE The Who.
.
I liked some of The Who's songs - but never enough to actually buy one of their records.

The tremendous disgust I feel when I see these goons smashing their instruments on the stage pretty much ruins any positive feeling I might have about their music.
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Old 08-02-2008, 01:02 AM   #3011
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The lower part of the two simultaneous/counterpoint Stairway melodies ... descending down the D-string one fret at a time, is identical to that Bing Crosby/Les Paul song ... and in fact, kinda the same as the acoustic part at the beginning of "Patiently," on Journey's (great great) Infinity album.

The big difference (and it's a BIG diference) between Stairway - and the Spirit, Crosby and Journey tunes, is that Pagey adds the counterpoint ASCENSION up the high e-string, A-B-C.


Yeah, chromatic descensions in base notes of melodies are common.
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Old 08-02-2008, 01:08 AM   #3012
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The big difference (and it's a BIG diference) between Stairway - and the Spirit, Crosby and Journey tunes, is that Pagey adds the counterpoint ASCENSION up the high e-string, A-B-C.
Yep.

That's called "contrary motion," BTW.
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Old 08-02-2008, 02:58 AM   #3013
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These guys are about the best Zeppelin tribute band I've ever seen:

Damn. That's very imressive.
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:45 AM   #3014
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When it comes to further Zeppelin discussion, I'm just going to post links to old threads rather than rehash this stuff yet again.

Here : http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=55283
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:03 AM   #3015
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yea Hogan , REM is another one i take hell from my friends for ... I can't help they have poor taste , cause i love me some REM heheh .. i must have bought automatic for the people 3 times ...
I'm one of the last hangers on when it comes to them as well....saw them quite a few times in the 80's, met them..the whole thing and ended up a true believer till Out Of Time landed (a bad album, no surprise it's their most popular ). Automatic... contains some very fine materail, but not everything works (about half the record) and a lot of tracks are bogged down with syrupy strings and orchestration (something that would dog the band from here on out, the damage of Out Of Time's success as I like to call it). "Nightswimming" is the last of the Stipe scat poetry tracks (they're sorely missed). The real gem off from AFTP IMHO is "Find The River" a majestic, mournful, beautiful mid tempo jangle brood that's just damn near perfect in summing up the entire project.


Anyways, the bottom fell out after Berry left and they went into this insane run of trying to produce an album equal to Pet Sounds. Chamber music kills almost every band that attempts it and R.E.M. was no exception. Afterwards, the rockers became mostly clubfooted and clumsy, Stipes poetic scat pieces disappeared, he over emoted and everything took a turn towards an adult MOR type sound that was just....well, boring. I had high hopes for the new album but after a few listens, it feels like a knockoff and nothing on it really stands out or is really memorable.

It's hard to match the consistancy that band had from 1982 thru say Green though, it was an amazing run of one top quality release after another that very few bands ever obtain....but when the bar keeps being raised and expectations continue to grow beyond the abilities, things will crash down at one point or another....for them, they sputtered for a few albums before crashing with Up. They remain one of my favorite bands of all time, that said however, I really think it's time for them to pull the plug (and that's really painful for me to say)..nothing they attempt is working anymore and they just seem so zapped of energy and ideas (see the outright tragic R.E.M. Live for confirmation).

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Old 08-02-2008, 10:23 AM   #3016
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Yep.

That's called "contrary motion," BTW.
Well, I liked "ascending counterpoint" ... but I'll defer to the rock star
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:28 AM   #3017
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When it comes to further Zeppelin discussion, I'm just going to post links to old threads rather than rehash this stuff yet again.

Here : http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=55283
Good idea. Keep those links handy, you're gonna need 'em
n
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:42 AM   #3018
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Damn. That's very imressive.
They're definitely incredible musicians, and the singer is particularly great. But the guitars do lack that frenetic Pagey style ... where he gets so wrapped up in the frantic urgency of playing. This I think is what leads to his unmistakeable quasi-sloppiness ... which in turns drives the frenetic urgency of the music even more. Had Page been more machine-precision like in his playing like say Steve Howe, Zeppelin would not have been the same, not at all. And these guitars players here are more precision and machine-like imo.

Plus the drummer lacks that legendary Bonham leadfoot ... although that could be my computer speakers.

I guess the point is that, the way I feel about Zeppelin, it's hard to pretend they're anything other than inimitable.
.
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:57 AM   #3019
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When it comes to further Zeppelin discussion, I'm just going to post links to old threads rather than rehash this stuff yet again.

Here : http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=55283
I never said I didn't love them.

I'm just saying The Who were a better band, they broke far more barriers and created many more iconic pieces of music. Jimmy Page was probably the better technical guitarist (hell, wasn't he some kind of child prodigy?) and Bonham was definitely the better drummer (in fact, IMO, the best rock and roll drummer of all time), although Keith's claim to fame wasn't technical prowess but pure, animalistic drive. Then, they had the wildest bass player in rock in Entwistle. I won't concede Plant as the better vocalist. That would be like saying a coronet is better than a trumpet - it's subjective. The Who had a huge sound and Daltrey had the perfect voice for it. Plant was great on some songs, a little too "flamboyant" on others, if you get my drift.

Maybe I'm jaded. I saw the Who live and never saw Zep live, but relegating the Who to second tier status with Yes and Sabbath is criminal, IMHO. BTW, I never liked the busting up of instruments either. Hell, I didn't like it when Jimi torched his Strat. As far as the Randy California thing goes, I'm just poking ya, BB. Everybody is influenced by everybody else, sometimes purely subliminally. Hell, Randy was previously in a band (Jimmy James and the Blue Flames) with Hendrix (who gave him the "California" nickname, to distinguish him from another Randy in the band who was Randy "Texas") and you could hear some Jimi in Randy, and vice versa, ever after. In fact, Randy would have been in the "Experience" but his mom and dad wouldn't let him go to London because he was too young.

BTW, BB (taking a piece from the thread Hogan pasted above) you should really take a listen to John Mayall's Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton - pre-Cream. This is the album where Clapton placed the Les Paul on the altar of Marshall amps and changed rock and roll forever. All that came after in rock owes a nod to this one.

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Old 08-02-2008, 11:20 AM   #3020
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They're definitely incredible musicians, and the singer is particularly great. But the guitars do lack that frenetic Pagey style ... where he gets so wrapped up in the frantic urgency of playing. This I think is what leads to his unmistakeable quasi-sloppiness ... which in turns drives the frenetic urgency of the music even more. Had Page been more machine-precision like in his playing like say Steve Howe, Zeppelin would not have been the same, not at all. And these guitars players here are more precision and machine-like imo.

Plus the drummer lacks that legendary Bonham leadfoot ... although that could be my computer speakers.

I guess the point is that, the way I feel about Zeppelin, it's hard to pretend they're anything other than inimitable.
.
I pretty much agree with what you're saying, but, lacking the real thing (although I'm of the opinion that they will tour - probably in '09), a tribute band is as close as it comes. The one LABF posted is excellent, although they don't offer either the stage presence, or the Page freneticism, or the Bonham 'leadfootedness', etc, as you noted. The one i saw recently, No Quarter, goes for the whole thing - the look as well as the sound. I don't think they are as good as the youtube video above, but it's a good evening of entertainment if you don't get too wrapped up in seeking perfection from an imitation. I saw Led Zeppelin a couple of times - I think in 1973 and 1975, and if you were looking for reproduction of what came out of the studio, you were in for a disappointment. For me, the energy of the performance more than made up for it.

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Old 08-02-2008, 05:23 PM   #3021
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Well, I liked "ascending counterpoint" ... but I'll defer to the rock star
.
Rock star?

Not!

I work for a living.

Anyway, I thought you might like to know the correct musical term for the technique you were describing.
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Old 08-02-2008, 05:31 PM   #3022
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They're definitely incredible musicians, and the singer is particularly great. But the guitars do lack that frenetic Pagey style ... where he gets so wrapped up in the frantic urgency of playing. This I think is what leads to his unmistakeable quasi-sloppiness ... which in turns drives the frenetic urgency of the music even more. Had Page been more machine-precision like in his playing like say Steve Howe, Zeppelin would not have been the same, not at all. And these guitars players here are more precision and machine-like imo.

Plus the drummer lacks that legendary Bonham leadfoot ... although that could be my computer speakers.

I guess the point is that, the way I feel about Zeppelin, it's hard to pretend they're anything other than inimitable.
.
Yep, you're right about one thing: 'sloppy' can be a lot harder to copy than music played with precision or clean technique (at least it is for me, anyway.)

Led Zeppelin is a pretty difficult band to cover, for obvious reasons, and a hardcore fan can always find something to criticize in any tribute or cover band that makes the effort, but I give "Virtual Zeppelin" some major props for being well inside the ball park and for tackling such an ambitious labor of love.
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Old 08-02-2008, 08:30 PM   #3023
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I liked some of The Who's songs - but never enough to actually buy one of their records.

The tremendous disgust I feel when I see these goons smashing their instruments on the stage pretty much ruins any positive feeling I might have about their music.

Didn't the Who stop breaking their instruments by 1966 or '67? Seems like that was over about the time they lost the blue jackets and white pants. Before any of their serious contributions to the genre, in other words.

Who's Next is one of the top 5 albums ever released, imo. So I bought that one. 'Course, I bought everything they released from Live At Leeds through Quadrophenia.

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Old 08-03-2008, 09:06 AM   #3024
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:14 AM   #3025
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Didn't the Who stop breaking their instruments by 1966 or '67? Seems like that was over about the time they lost the blue jackets and white pants. Before any of their serious contributions to the genre, in other words.

Who's Next is one of the top 5 albums ever released, imo. So I bought that one. 'Course, I bought everything they released from Live At Leeds through Quadrophenia.
The Who stopped the overall destruction in 1968 due to huge cost overruns (it cost them more $$$ then they had)....it was done out of frustration of having a bad night and overall frustration with the audience anyways. Townsend tried to pass it all off as some sort of "pop art" for years, but no one really ever bought it.

So yeah, roughly by 1968, it was largely all over....save for the occasional guitar, cymbal or floor tom here and there.

I'm largely indifferent to the smashing of instruments...there were many times when I was playing where I wanted to pull a Sid Vicious, unstrap my bass and swing it at the aholes head in the crowd that was taunting me, so I understand the frustration that would lead up to that. It was never something that would turn me off from a band though because, afterall, it's the music that counts when all is said and done...not the stage show.
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