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Old 07-30-2008, 11:27 AM   #2976
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Speaking of The Rock And Roll Circus, everyone generally acknowledges The Who stole the show, so why not?

Moonie at his best

I thought that was a tremendous performance, too, and particularly Moon's contributions. The story has always been that Jagger didn't release the show because of the Who, but it was probably the Stone''s own lackluster that kept it out of circulation for so long.

I also agree with you on Stand Up. It's always been my favorite Tull recording.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:47 AM   #2977
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OK, Plant had one songwriting credit on LZ I, then become a regularly contributor on II. I had read somewhere the Page was reluctant early on to give Plant writing duties, but I thought it was about the third or fourth effort that he finally let him out of the box. In any case, I found the lyrics generally either uninteresting or too far out with the fantasy crap.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:52 AM   #2978
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I thought that was a tremendous performance, too, and particularly Moon's contributions. The story has always been that Jagger didn't release the show because of the Who, but it was probably the Stone''s own lackluster that kept it out of circulation for so long.

I also agree with you on Stand Up. It's always been my favorite Tull recording.
I was very disappointed with The Stones performance in that....seeing them sing along to a freakin' backing track of "Salt Of The Earth" (one of my all time fave songs by them) was extremely offputting to say the least.
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Old 07-30-2008, 12:01 PM   #2979
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OK, Plant had one songwriting credit on LZ I, then become a regularly contributor on II. I had read somewhere the Page was reluctant early on to give Plant writing duties, but I thought it was about the third or fourth effort that he finally let him out of the box. In any case, I found the lyrics generally either uninteresting or too far out with the fantasy crap.
You're far from the only one to hold that opinion.

We've been over and over the Zep thing several times on this board, it's as tiresome as the band itself is to me. Really, I've been subjected to the band so much over the course of my life that I honestly wouldn't care if I never heard any of it ever again.
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:47 PM   #2980
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I'm not aware of Page actually writing very much lyrically, that's more of Plant's domain and the main reason for all the hippy dippy fantasy bullshat. Page is solely credited with a few songs here and there ("Dazed And Confused") but I believe his main input overall was song construction and not lyrics.
I'm not aware that Page ever wrote lyrics (as Inferno claimed) - period.

Both the words (with some tweaks) and music to "Dazed and Confused" were pretty much stolen outright from some poor, unsigned blues singer named Jake Holmes.

As for the "hippy dippy" assessment - I guess that's just a personal taste thing again.

One man's "mystical bullsh*t" is another man's poetry.

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I'd agree with The Who being more versitle, but more than anything, The Who was much more creative....any doubts can be easily erased by looking at not only the bodies of work of each band, but also the individual members themselves, who all (save for Moon) had decent and quality solo careers outside of the band whereas only Plant has gone on to anything of note musically (The Firm was a disaster and I do not count producing as the same as actual music creation, so Jones does not count). Zep also never attempted anything as complex an idea as Tommy, Lifehouse or Quadrophenia...lofty concepts that sometimes escaped The Who themselves.
I think I just made a pretty good case that LZ was more versatile a few posts ago - given the range of styles the band could play (and from which their music was drawn.)

As for Page, I think you can attribute his post-Zep disappearing act to drug addiction.

As for concept albums - they bore the crap out of me (personal tastes again.)
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:50 PM   #2981
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Just put on Live at Leeds and crank it.

Argument over.
I didn't mind listening to that record.
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:42 PM   #2982
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...

What are your thoughts on the band YES LABF?
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:47 PM   #2983
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...

What are your thoughts on the band YES LABF?
Yes probably does have better PURE musicians than either The Who or Zeppelin, but as far as saying The Who is more "versatile" than Zeppelin? Man ... where to start on the transparent falsity of that assertion?

You might like the Who more than Zeppelin, which is fine. But "versatility" is not an issue open to any real discussion. Led Zeppelin had more stylistic range than any band except the Beatles ... in fact, their versatility was perhaps their second most amazing feature (next to their groundbreaking originality, also something The Who cannot match).

Zep could do sugary love songs (Thank You, All My Love), folk-rock beauties (Going to California, That's the Way), towering blues-rock milestones that will never be eclipsed (Since I've been Loving You, The Lemon Song), ground-breaking metal numbers so unique they were weird at first, but are classics now (Dazed and Confused, Whole Lotta Love), classic album anthems (Stairway, Rain Song), and uterly unusual, moody blusters (No Quarter). Now THAT'S versatility. They even pulled off what I like to call the first real headbanger-headbanger number, Four Sticks, and a Top 40 Rockabilly number, Hot Dog. And these weren't just "stabs" at different genres ... these were hammer and tong mastery of the styles, with their own inimitable uniqueness laid over. No pretenders were they, not by a long shot: 'That's the Way' is a genuine and pure folk-rock classic ... 'Since I've Been Loving You' is a genuine and pure blues-rock classic ... and on and on.


The Who's versatility, while mildly impressive, shouldn't really be compared to Led Zeppelin, it's just not fair. The Beatles maybe, but that's it. Zeppelin was the most musically versatile band of the rock era.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:58 PM   #2984
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We've been over and over the Zep thing several times on this board, it's as tiresome as the band itself is to me. Really, I've been subjected to the band so much over the course of my life that I honestly wouldn't care if I never heard any of it ever again.
That's the biggest problem with this discussion ... you DISLIKE Zeppelin with a near-passion. Which is FINE. But it clouds your judgment when evaluating things like versatility and uniqueness. Your opinions are so intetrtwined with your dislike of Zeppelin as to render them invalid on their face.

As far as musicianship ... Page over Townsend, seriously? That is completely not worthy of an argument, Page in a walk.

Robert Plant was FAR more unique, groundbreaking and influential that Roger Daltry, but I suppose if you like Daltry more that's okay. Personally, I don't think it's even close. Example: I spent years not knowing that Pete Townsend sang lead on "Going Mobile," and I'm pretty darned observant of instruments and singers and arrangements ... so if the guitar player's lead singing can be easily confused with the lead freaking singer, then what is Daltry really? The blonde frontman.

Bass and drums is tougher to rank. I gotta say John Entwistle is better that JPJ to be honest. Jones is an amazing bass player, but Entwistle is unthinkably good.

Drums, kinda tough to call, both were unique and much-imitated. Next time "Who Are You?" comes on when you can really listen, focus on Moon ... it's un-freaking-real. But Moon's appeal had much to do with his personality, and other drummers could do what he did. John Bonham though, was a force of nature that cannot be underestimated as an influence on not just drums, but on rock and metal music itself. Edge to Bonham.

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Old 07-30-2008, 10:51 PM   #2985
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Just put on Live at Leeds and crank it.

Argument over.
The Who did put on amazing, even unparalleled live shows ... Daltry swinging the mic, Pete twirling the arm, John with his "beverage" decanter, and Moon the lunatic were impressive as hell and unforgettable showmen ... even before they destroyed their equipment (which they might've been the first to do). I always thought being "the loudest" band was kinda gay, but for live spectacle, The Who is hard hard to beat.

But overall ... The Who is CLEARLY number four among English bands ... the other three are on a level The Who simply cannot match. The Who is on the next level with Sabbath and Yes (if there even are "levels" )
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:55 PM   #2986
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Page vs. Townsend ... that's an even more preposterous argument than the versatility question. I can't think of a single guitar solo of note by Townsend. There is no doubt Pete Townsend is a musical genius or near there (he's a gay pedophile too, but that's different story), but to compare him to Jimmy Page as guitar players is silly.
m
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:03 PM   #2987
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That's the biggest problem with this discussion ... you DISLIKE Zeppelin with a near-passion. Which is FINE. But it clouds your judgment when evaluating things like versatility and uniqueness. Your opinions are so intetrtwined with your dislike of Zeppelin as to render them invalid on their face.
That's the biggest problem with this discussion ... you LIKE Zeppelin with a near-passion. Which is FINE. But it clouds your judgment when evaluating things like versatility and uniqueness. Your opinions are so intetrtwined with your love of Zeppelin as to render them invalid on their face.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:13 PM   #2988
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I'm a not big fan of Plant's voice and actually like Dalt's voice, but...

the variety songs that Zep put out are far more "encompassing and varied" than the WHO's.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:19 PM   #2989
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That's the biggest problem with this discussion ... you LIKE Zeppelin with a near-passion. Which is FINE. But it clouds your judgment when evaluating things like versatility and uniqueness. Your opinions are so intetrtwined with your love of Zeppelin as to render them invalid on their face.
Say ... that's an impressive argument!
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:28 PM   #2990
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Say ... that's an impressive argument!
.
Well really, Zep has been debated to death here several times over...why pick the scab off from that whole thing yet again? It's basically a stalemate, circular debate on all sides and ultimately, boring.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:51 PM   #2991
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Yes probably does have better PURE musicians than either The Who or Zeppelin, but as far as saying The Who is more "versatile" than Zeppelin? Man ... where to start on the transparent falsity of that assertion?

You might like the Who more than Zeppelin, which is fine. But "versatility" is not an issue open to any real discussion. Led Zeppelin had more stylistic range than any band except the Beatles ... in fact, their versatility was perhaps their second most amazing feature (next to their groundbreaking originality, also something The Who cannot match).

Zep could do sugary love songs (Thank You, All My Love), folk-rock beauties (Going to California, That's the Way), towering blues-rock milestones that will never be eclipsed (Since I've been Loving You, The Lemon Song), ground-breaking metal numbers so unique they were weird at first, but are classics now (Dazed and Confused, Whole Lotta Love), classic album anthems (Stairway, Rain Song), and uterly unusual, moody blusters (No Quarter). Now THAT'S versatility. They even pulled off what I like to call the first real headbanger-headbanger number, Four Sticks, and a Top 40 Rockabilly number, Hot Dog. And these weren't just "stabs" at different genres ... these were hammer and tong mastery of the styles, with their own inimitable uniqueness laid over. No pretenders were they, not by a long shot: 'That's the Way' is a genuine and pure folk-rock classic ... 'Since I've Been Loving You' is a genuine and pure blues-rock classic ... and on and on.


The Who's versatility, while mildly impressive, shouldn't really be compared to Led Zeppelin, it's just not fair. The Beatles maybe, but that's it. Zeppelin was the most musically versatile band of the rock era.
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Very well argued, and I quite agree.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:59 PM   #2992
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...

What are your thoughts on the band YES LABF?
I have the utmost respect for the musicans in YES - they are all accomplished players - but I never really dug their style of music. I'm not a huge fan of prog rock that's classically-influenced - I'm more of a jazz and blues-based guy.

My favorite prog band was Jethro Tull because I loved their fusion of blues, jazz, rock, and ethnic (e.g., Scottish) folk music.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:33 AM   #2993
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OF COURSE
So you ride yourselves over the fields and
you make all your animal deals and
your wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick.

It's toe-tappingly prog.

I'm not a big Tull fan, but that song is just amazing.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:50 AM   #2994
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Well really, Zep has been debated to death here several times over...why pick the scab off from that whole thing yet again? It's basically a stalemate, circular debate on all sides and ultimately, boring.
You can like whomever you wish ... I am totally cool with subjective taste for music and artists. And as far as singers - they are really a personal thing, a subjective decision which one you like more (unless you're talking about range or pipes, but those things don't make the singer).

An artist's versatility is a different question though, not really a "stalemate." That question can be answered largely objectively. Their songs can be evaluated for the varieties of genre and sub-genre, and for how authentically the artist expresses that genre. Zeppelin clearly tackled more styles than The Who, and tackled them with authenticity and flair.

And guitar players - they are yet another question. Some comparisons are close enough to flip a coin ... but some comparisons are nothing more than simple math problems, 2 + 2 = 4. And Pete Townsend vs. Jimmy Page is a simple math problem. The answer is there, and not subject to "opinions." You can like Townsend more than Page, but you cannot simply "will him" to be as good a guitar player.
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:04 AM   #2995
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I am a long hair and have sang in bands for 15 years ... and my fav band is Pink Floyd , I like alot of metal and rock , grunge cause of when i grew up ...

I say all this then ask am i a poser for wishing this Billy Ocean video was Hi Qual .. ... I love alot of the stuff from the 80s tho ... The Outfield and stuff like that ... sigh i guess i am a poser :O(






watched the whole show and boy the old man can still sing like a bird ... and watching him get down cracks me up ... somebody is having a good time in Amsterdam
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:49 AM   #2996
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I am a long hair and have sang in bands for 15 years ... and my fav band is Pink Floyd , I like alot of metal and rock , grunge cause of when i grew up ...

I say all this then ask am i a poser for wishing this Billy Ocean video was Hi Qual .. ... I love alot of the stuff from the 80s tho ... The Outfield and stuff like that ... sigh i guess i am a poser :O(
Not at all. There's nothing in the world wrong with guilty pleasures. I'm into a lot of different stuff and one of my passions is for 60's & 70's bubblegum pop music. My friends are not surprised when one of those songs pops up smack in the middle of a mix I made, but it has been a bit jarring for those who don't often ride with me. Talking about The Who earlier, I followed up "Bargain" with this once and then put the Mahavisnu Orchestra on the other side of it.

I don't care what anyone says, it's a great fun pop song.
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:07 AM   #2997
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"Going Mobile" ... one of my The Who favorites (but it's funny, Daltry must've had a cold, cause he sounds a bit different than usual )

The amazing part of this song is that it's a simple three-piece band, Pete on acoustic, until the bridge synth comes in ("out in the woods, or in the city"), then the wah-wah lead later. But other than these two overdubs, it's just a 3-piece. And according to Pete and the producers in that great VH-1 series "Classic Albums," it was recorded live in the studio: Moon, Entwistle and Pete on acoustic ... AND, Pete did the lead vocal at the same time! They played the lead vocal track alone, and you can hear the guitar some thru the mic!

That is very impressive, Pete is very very talented.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:42 AM   #2998
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One of my all time favorite videos and songs....from one of my all time fave albums.
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:00 AM   #2999
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yea Hogan , REM is another one i take hell from my friends for ... I can't help they have poor taste , cause i love me some REM heheh .. i must have bought automatic for the people 3 times ...
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:02 PM   #3000
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The Who did put on amazing, even unparalleled live shows ... Daltry swinging the mic, Pete twirling the arm, John with his "beverage" decanter, and Moon the lunatic were impressive as hell and unforgettable showmen ... even before they destroyed their equipment (which they might've been the first to do). I always thought being "the loudest" band was kinda gay, but for live spectacle, The Who is hard hard to beat.

But overall ... The Who is CLEARLY number four among English bands ... the other three are on a level The Who simply cannot match. The Who is on the next level with Sabbath and Yes (if there even are "levels" )
The Who on the same level as Yes and Sabbath? Don't make me gag. I realize you are a Zep Gopi, but please, your argument is breaking up on reentry. As far as comparing Townsend and Page, I'd use the argument of recognizable licks. I hypothesize that if you got together fifty music fans and played them licks from those two (admittedly excellent) guitarists, the fans would recognize far more of Pete's than they would Jimmy's. The Who made iconic music. Think of how many of Pete's compositions became rock anthems. We Don't Get Fooled Again? Tommy? Pin Ball Wizard? My Generation? Blue Eyes? Who Are You? Baba? etc. etc. etc. About the only iconic piece of music Zep ever came up with was Stairway..., and they stole that from Randy California.
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