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Old 03-03-2011, 01:34 PM   #1
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I'd like some feedback from you ladies on the mane as well:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/2...mowitzexplains

NEW YORK – Why Are Men So Angry?Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance.

About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it.

But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

Shocked? I wasn t. During the last few years researching this age group, I’ve stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging?

Check out the websites like names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor.com (“Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.”). Or read popular bloggers like the pseudonymous Roissy, a ferociously caustic dissector of female “sluttiness” and “**** tests” (attempts to manipulate men). There are dozens upon dozens of gurus and counselors who publish posts like “42 Things Wrong With American Women” while chat forums ruminate over how “American Women Suck.”

Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure.

So, is this what Susan Faludi famously called the backlash? Is it immaturity, as my own book seems to suggest? Is it the Internet as an escape valve for decades of pent-up rebellion against political correctness? Or, is it just good, old-fashioned misogyny?

A bit of all of the above, probably. But there’s another reason for these rants, one that is far less understood. Let’s call it gender bait and switch. Never before in history have men been matched up with women who are so much their equal—socially, professionally, and sexually. By the time they reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors—in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. They very reasonably assume that the women they are meeting at a bar or café or gym are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.

That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.

Far worse in the bait and switch category is women’s stated preference for nice guys and actual attraction to bad boys. Now, clearly this is not true for all women. Many, maybe even most, want a guy with the sweetness of a Jimmy Stewart and sensitivity of Ashley Wilkes. But enough of them are partial to the Charlie Sheens of this world that one popular dating guru, David DeAngleo, lists “Being Too Much of a Nice Guy” as No. 1 in his “Ten Most Dangerous Mistakes Men Make With Women.” At a website with the evocative name Relation****.com, (“Brutally honest dating advice for the cynical, bitter, and jaded,” and sociological cousin of Dating-is-Hell.com) the most highly trafficked pages are those asking the question why women don’t like good guys.

PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

Kay S. Hymowitz is the William E. Simon Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a contributing editor of City Journal. Her new book is Manning Up.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:42 PM   #2
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For every generation the rules are a little different.

Not sure I understood the whole point of the piece, men are staying home and not looking for love because the availability of porn and playstations? Nothing ever replaces touch and someone to talk to. Interview the same guys in 10-15 years and you will likely find them either in or searching for some kind of relationship.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:43 PM   #3
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For every generation the rules are a little different.

Not sure I understood the whole point of the piece, men are staying home and not looking for love because the availability of porn and playstations? Nothing ever replaces touch and someone to talk to. Interview the same guys in 10-15 years and you will likely find them either in or searching for some kind of relationship.
I'm 32 and have given up on finding a "good" woman. One who is willing to work hard, one who doesn't feel entitled, etc.

I just found "other" things to do, and stopped focusing on "Marriage, family, etc".
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:47 PM   #4
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I'm 32 and have given up on finding a "good" woman. One who is willing to work hard, one who doesn't feel entitled, etc.

I just found "other" things to do, and stopped focusing on "Marriage, family, etc".
I was 28 before I found mine, her sister is 40 and in her 1st relationship since I met her over 15 years ago.

It is hard to find your soul mate, don't give up just be ready when she does come along.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:49 PM   #5
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I was 28 before I found mine, her sister is 40 and in her 1st relationship since I met her over 15 years ago.

It is hard to find your soul mate, don't give up just be ready when she does come along.
I don't think there is such a thing as a soul mate to be honest.

I'm more focused on trying to create a discussion between men and women on what the problems are.

I personally feel that Disney and Porn have ruined the expectations for two generations of people:

Women want their faery tales, and men are looking for their whores.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:49 PM   #6
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I get where these guys are coming from. I'm in that age group (early thirties) and it can be kind of nuts. I'm lucky in that I met a down-to-earth woman very early on, but I've witnessed it through my friends. It's not just relationships either. I've been harassed while hanging out in the park near my house eating lunch. Apparently a single man within 200 feet of a playground is clearly there to molest children.

I don't think "gold-digging" is anything new, but man it sure is out in the open these days. I'm a man of some means... and I've had women on many occasions try to tear me away from my wife. I had one go so far as to mention to my wife that I was having an affair (I wasn't).

Hell I'm not even that attractive (skinny white guy), but that doesn't seem to matter much.

I've had friends who have had girlfriends drop them for being laid off. I had a friend break up with his girlfriend because the engagement ring he bought wasn't big enough to impress her friends.

I get why guys my age would be dog tired of it all.

On top of that we've been hugely emasculated. Popular culture is filled with the goofy, idiot husband who only gets by because his wife is there to save him. We've seen good intentioned ideas (like cracking down on sexual harassment) taken to the extremes (really, it's a bad idea to talk to a woman in the workplace if you're a man).

It's kind of a crappy time to be a man these days.

It's honestly the reason I love Colorado above all else. 90% of the lunacy I've witnessed has happened far from here. It seems to be rampant in the south (Arkansas/Dallas) and east coasts from what I can tell.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:50 PM   #7
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this piece really doesnt say anything

I'm 28 and I agree with the "internet porn, Playstation 3" bachelorhood statement that the author makes. At this point in my life I would rather spend my money on myself, avoid adding conflict to my life and be able to use my time as I like without anyone else having any input on it

I'm a little angry, but it has to do with the caliber of girls I tend to date. At this point in time all the desirable girls seem to be in long term relationships or they arent interested in dating anyone at all.

Funny enough, all the guys who I hung out with in my early twenties who I would consider "womanizers" (sleeping with tons of people) are getting married to nice, respectable women. Not sure what that says about anything

I'm sure in 2-5 years I'll feel completely different.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:50 PM   #8
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Why are men so angry? Josh McDaniels.

Luckily we have found the cure to the horrible disease McDanielsruinseverythingitis. Now we can begin the healing process. I have been much less angry as of late. I hear the disease is spreading rapidly Rams country though.

As for the article, it sounds like he is taking a bunch of no p***Y getting nerds a little too seriously. Women are a pain in the ass but they sweet poon is worth it.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:50 PM   #9
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**** YOU a-hole!!!!!!!
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:51 PM   #10
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Pre-adulthood is a man's 20's and early 30s...then what was the previous 19 years? Pre-humanhood?...

Porn has existed as long as mankind has. I am not sure about it being some huge thing recently, and Playstations and Xboxes are not exactly the exclusive domain of men.

The best thing to do is find a person you can talk to and laugh with. Forget what society says a relationship MUST be and work towards what you and the other person want. Silly article.

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Old 03-03-2011, 02:01 PM   #11
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...The best thing to do is find a person you can talk to and laugh with. Forget what society says a relationship MUST be and work towards what you and the other person want. Silly article.

I agree, I think your same sex friends are just as much Soul Mates as your wife or lover mate thing. I am not a big believer in religion but I believe in gravity and we are where we are attracted to and orbit around the people we do for a reason.

20 years ago when I was in my 20's I was just as bitter as Ak, but I didn't give up on it and when I found the one I didn't let her get away.

I do think women expect men to read their minds and they may talk about wanting equal rights but when they kids they want to be back in 1860 where the man brings home the bacon and they stay home and play house.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:03 PM   #12
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I agree, I think your same sex friends are just as much Soul Mates as your wife or lover mate thing. I am not a big believer in religion but I believe in gravity and we are where we are attracted to and orbit around the people we do for a reason.

20 years ago when I was in my 20's I was just as bitter as Ak, but I didn't give up on it and when I found the one I didn't let her get away.

I do think women expect men to read their minds and they may talk about wanting equal rights but when they kids they want to be back in 1860 where the man brings home the bacon and they stay home and play house.
I'm not bitter, but i'm interested in this "discussion".
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:03 PM   #13
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Pre-adulthood is a man's 20's and early 30s...then what was the previous 19 years? Pre-humanhood?...

Porn has existed as long as mankind has. I am not sure about it being some huge thing recently, and Playstations and Xboxes are not exactly the exclusive domain of men.

The best thing to do is find a person you can talk to and laugh with. Forget what society says a relationship MUST be and work towards what you and the other person want. Silly article.

You can divide the previous 19 years into 3 phases: childhood, hormonal irregularity and idiocy, the balances these occur in may change from individual to individual, but they all occur pretty universally.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:07 PM   #14
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Just to throw in another point of discussion to this:

I'm 28 and nowhere close to being in the position of owning a house. 90% of my friends aren't married.

20 years ago this would be unheard of, am I right?
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:08 PM   #15
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Wow so women are crazy? Like we didn't know that. What they want one yr is different the next. They want to be equals on decisions but then also want the man to take a stand and make decisions. They want man to pay, but want to make as much or more then we do.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:09 PM   #16
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You can divide the previous 19 years into 3 phases: childhood, hormonal irregularity and idiocy, the balances these occur in may change from individual to individual, but they all occur pretty universally.
I have very fond memories of my idiot years. Looking back though, I find it hard to believe I survived.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:09 PM   #17
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I am in that same age group (30) and I to some extend agree with the premise of the piece, the gender equality and to some extend confusion in the social sphere is counterproductive when it comes to classic romance.

If I am at the gym and a girl asks if she can work in between sets, sure thing, but if I have just seen you do reps with 100 pounds on the bench press then don't expect me to open the door for you, I know you can do it. If I am at work and I find out a girl is making substantially more than me, then don't expect me to pick up the cab fare, the tickets and the dinner tab, I know you can pay your own way. If I am in a discussion with a girl at work about some subtlety in her research, then don't expect me to ask you out unless you show there is a chance, I know you know how to communicate.

The problem is not the equality in the social and professional sphere, the problem is the princess syndrome, that girls want to feel special and they want to be treated special. Of course not all girls are like this, but a good many are.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:09 PM   #18
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Wow so women are crazy? Like we didn't know that. What they want one yr is different the next. They want to be equals on decisions but then also want the man to take a stand and make decisions. They want man to pay, but want to make as much or more then we do.
This is a problem in our culture. We want our cake, and eat it too. (the best of both)
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:09 PM   #19
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I have very fond memories of my idiot years. Looking back though, I find it hard to believe I survived.
The idiot years can be a blessing or a curse, I know mine varied wildly but overall they were pretty sweet.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:11 PM   #20
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You can divide the previous 19 years into 3 phases: childhood, hormonal irregularity and idiocy, the balances these occur in may change from individual to individual, but they all occur pretty universally.

Agreed. But to include a person's entire 20s and half of their 30s as pre-adulthood is just ridiculous. I realize everyone is different, but if a 30 year old is doing the same thing for the same reasons they were when they were 18 they wont suddenly become an adult at 35. That person is just immature.

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Old 03-03-2011, 02:13 PM   #21
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Porn has existed as long as mankind has. I am not sure about it being some huge thing recently...
The availabilty of porn on the internet has dramatically altered the industry over the last several years. You must be a fairly young guy to not be more aware of what a huge change has occurred in porn. I'd link you up some really good articles on the topic but don't really want to search for them from my desk at work if you know what I mean...
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:13 PM   #22
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Just to throw in another point of discussion to this:

I'm 28 and nowhere close to being in the position of owning a house. 90% of my friends aren't married.

20 years ago this would be unheard of, am I right?

Twenty years ago people got married right out of highschool and had two or three kids by the time they turned 28. I know girls from HS who were the I am an independent woman and the minute HS ended they did a semester of college, met some dude and got married within a year. Odd how that worked out.

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Old 03-03-2011, 02:14 PM   #23
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I don't think there is such a thing as a soul mate to be honest.

I'm more focused on trying to create a discussion between men and women on what the problems are.

I personally feel that Disney and Porn have ruined the expectations for two generations of people:

Women want their faery tales, and men are looking for their whores.
I actually found my "whore" once. She was so much fun. I totally rescued her from a horrible situation and all that, total prince charming and everything. Sadly, it didn't work out at all though. Weird.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:16 PM   #24
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Twenty years ago people got married right out of highschool and had two or three kids by the time they turned 28. I know girls from HS who were the I am an independent woman and the minute HS ended they did a semester of college, met some dude and got married within a year. Odd how that worked out.

And once the nest is empty they divorce and it starts all over again.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:17 PM   #25
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The availabilty of porn on the internet has dramatically altered the industry over the last several years. You must be a fairly young guy to not be more aware of what a huge change has occurred in porn. I'd link you up some really good articles on the topic but don't really want to search for them from my desk at work if you know what I mean...

Porn has its uses. That use ends when you actually find someone to sleep with. And even then imitating what you see in porn with an actual person is not the best idea. What I meant was that people (men particularly) are visual creatures. The venus statues they found all over Europe and central Asia and the ME is ancient porn. A headless nude woman with a giant rack.

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