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Old 04-16-2013, 08:51 PM   #326
errand
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Just be sure you're responsible with your gun(s).

Do your part to cut down on the ~100,000 deaths and injuries annually from the misuse of guns. You see or know someone who's irresponsible with firearms, say and do something about it.
sure thing....now can you do something about the millions of deaths by those who choose to have abortions?
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:55 PM   #327
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sure thing....now can you do something about the millions of deaths by those who choose to have abortions?
Yep. Free contraceptives to all who want them. Honest and objective sex education for the kiddies. Support for women who keep their kids.

What's the right-wing plan? Oh yeah - sex is dirty and filthy, abstinence (praying to God, of course) really works, and besides, the stork brings babies, and single moms are welfare queen moochers, likely with darker than lily-white skin, so they're on their own.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:05 PM   #328
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Transfer any and all responsibility from the individual to the collective at the expense of productive citizens.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:07 PM   #329
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Transfer any and all responsibility from the individual to the collective at the expense of productive citizens.
We all know that women who have abortions are sluts and whores, right?
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:11 PM   #330
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We all know that women who have abortions are sluts and whores, right?
And uppity.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:16 PM   #331
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We all know that women who have abortions are sluts and whores, right?
Hey Wags, if those baby spines got snipped while still inside the uterine wall, would everything have all been A-OK in Progressland?
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:18 PM   #332
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Hey Wags, if those baby spines got snipped while still inside the uterine wall, would everything have all been A-OK in Progressland?
If you want the number of abortions reduced, then you take the steps I mentioned.

Praying to your God to cast women who have abortions and abortion providers into Hell ain't gonna work.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:45 PM   #333
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If you want the number of abortions reduced, then you take the steps I mentioned.

Praying to your God to cast women who have abortions and abortion providers into Hell ain't gonna work.
Sure thing Chief. Hey, maybe you can explain to me with all that State-Sponsored Sex Ed, contraception and Progressive Wisdom, Blue States on average have much higher abortion rates than Red States. I mean not that you care or anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/op...n.html?hp&_r=0

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But that isn’t what the data show. Instead, abortion rates are frequently higher in more liberal states, where access is often largely unrestricted, than in more conservative states, which are more likely to have parental consent laws, waiting periods, and so on. “Safe, legal and rare” is a nice slogan, but liberal policies don’t always seem to deliver the “rare” part.

What’s more, another Guttmacher Institute study suggests that liberal states don’t necessarily do better than conservative ones at preventing teenagers from getting pregnant in the first place. Instead, the lower teenage birth rates in many blue states are mostly just a consequence of (again) their higher abortion rates. Liberal California, for instance, has a higher teen pregnancy rate than socially conservative Alabama; the Californian teenage birth rate is only lower because the Californian abortion rate is more than twice as high.

These are realities liberals should keep in mind when tempted to rail against conservatives for rejecting the intuitive-seeming promise of “more condoms, fewer abortions.” What’s intuitive isn’t always true, and if social conservatives haven’t figured out how to make all good things go together in post-sexual-revolution America, neither have social liberals.
Anyway, you didn't answer my question. If Kermit's crimes had taken place on the other side of the cervix, would you consider it a crime, or a lifestyle choice?

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Old 04-17-2013, 06:28 AM   #334
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I was wondering something. Do you personally know any physicians who perform elective abortions in the outpatient clinic setting? If you do, would you consider them to be competent and ethical?
Unsure. I don't personally know many Ob/gyns and I'm not sure whether those whom I do know are performing elective abortions./

Of course in very early pregnancy outpatient methotrexate is safe I believe. At the least its safe in early nonruptured ectopic pregnancy.

I imagine that first trimester D and C could be performed as an outpatient with moderate sedation safely. Patients with spontaneous abortion and retained products of conception in the first trimester will be discharged from the PACU after short observation I believe.

As for 2nd trimester or later pregnancy I am not familiar enough to really say what is safe. The complication rates are unknown to me. However in the case of retained POC as above the procedure is taken care of in the OR with a board certified anesthesiologist so while it is likely that could be transitioned to an outpatient surgery center safely a private clinic may be a different matter.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:19 AM   #335
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Unsure. I don't personally know many Ob/gyns and I'm not sure whether those whom I do know are performing elective abortions./

Of course in very early pregnancy outpatient methotrexate is safe I believe. At the least its safe in early nonruptured ectopic pregnancy.

I imagine that first trimester D and C could be performed as an outpatient with moderate sedation safely. Patients with spontaneous abortion and retained products of conception in the first trimester will be discharged from the PACU after short observation I believe.

As for 2nd trimester or later pregnancy I am not familiar enough to really say what is safe. The complication rates are unknown to me. However in the case of retained POC as above the procedure is taken care of in the OR with a board certified anesthesiologist so while it is likely that could be transitioned to an outpatient surgery center safely a private clinic may be a different matter.
I should have been more specific. All of the above are pregnancy termination and/or surgical interventions for potentially life threatening indications, which any obstetrician would provide. I'm asking if you know anyone who performs "abortions" electively in the setting where the pregnant woman just doesn't want to be pregnant. I ask because I don't know anyone who does, and that includes my obstetrician wife. I have a hunch that the kind of physician that provides that type of service does so because they can't make a living in a regular practice.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:03 AM   #336
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I'm pretty sure that abortions happen as result of a simple choice of not wanting to be pregnant,it's a women's prerogative.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:15 AM   #337
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I'm pretty sure that abortions happen as result of a simple choice of not wanting to be pregnant,it's a women's prerogative.
I am we'll aware that it happens. I just don't know who provides the service because nobody in a hospital or reputible clinic setting wants anything to do with it. They are too busy taking care of people and making a good living doing so. They don't need to supliment their practice with the unpleasntness of providing interventional post conception birth control for the "its my body and my choice and I dont want to be pregnant" population. The kind of physician providing that service is very likely incompetent and/or unethical because they can't make it in the real world.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:38 AM   #338
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I am we'll aware that it happens. I just don't know who provides the service because nobody in a hospital or reputible clinic setting wants anything to do with it. They are too busy taking care of people and making a good living doing so. They don't need to supliment their practice with the unpleasntness of providing interventional post conception birth control for the "its my body and my choice and I dont want to be pregnant" population. The kind of physician providing that service is very likely incompetent and/or unethical because they can't make it in the real world.
Your opinion on this is so biased that you can't accept the fact that there are very competent & ethical doctors that perform these legal medical procedures.
The great doctors who provide these legal services,do so because they believe in a womens right to choose, a lot if not a very large majority,like90%+,have a practice outside of providing these medical procedures,in hospitals.
Trying to paint them as individuals who couldn't make it in the medical field is disingenuous.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:39 AM   #339
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I'm pretty sure that abortions happen as result of a simple choice of not wanting to be pregnant,it's a women's prerogative.
That's nice and all, but how far are you willing to take it? Is snuffing a viable fetus a "choice?" Is crushing a baby's head on it's way out of the birth canal a "choice?" If that's done just seconds later outside the mother, "choice?" How about life saving measures and feeding after that? Mother's choice?
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:46 AM   #340
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Your opinion on this is so biased that you can't accept the fact that there are very competent & ethical doctors that perform these legal medical procedures.
The great doctors who provide these legal services,do so because they believe in a womens right to choose, a lot if not a very large majority,like90%+,have a practice outside of providing these medical procedures,in hospitals.
Trying to paint them as individuals who couldn't make it in the medical field is disingenuous.
Citation needed.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:18 AM   #341
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If you really, truly care about this issue you owe it to yourself to give this a thoughtful, open minded read. I'm not expecting it to change your mind, but I am hoping it may open it. There's a lot more to it than you might think. Lots to think about.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/threads/its-so-personal/
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:53 AM   #342
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If you really, truly care about this issue you owe it to yourself to give this a thoughtful, open minded read. I'm not expecting it to change your mind, but I am hoping it may open it. There's a lot more to it than you might think. Lots to think about.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/threads/its-so-personal/
What is so moving about the possibility of taking a person with say a 20% chance of surviving surgery and saying "screw it, let's just kill and bury them now. Then we'll pretend (unsuccessfully) like they never existed"

I guess coming from Andy "What goes in inside a lady is none of my business, unless her name is Sarah Palin" Sullivan, I shouldn't be surprised.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:54 AM   #343
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I should have been more specific. All of the above are pregnancy termination and/or surgical interventions for potentially life threatening indications, which any obstetrician would provide. I'm asking if you know anyone who performs "abortions" electively in the setting where the pregnant woman just doesn't want to be pregnant. I ask because I don't know anyone who does, and that includes my obstetrician wife. I have a hunch that the kind of physician that provides that type of service does so because they can't make a living in a regular practice.
The simple answer is I don't know. The docs I deal with certainly have their own private practices about which I do not inquire about much.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7804JN20110901

According to this article 14% of Ob-gyn will provide elective abortion services.

Last edited by kappys; 04-17-2013 at 10:57 AM..
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:13 AM   #344
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What is so moving about the possibility of taking a person with say a 20% chance of surviving surgery and saying "screw it, let's just kill and bury them now. Then we'll pretend (unsuccessfully) like they never existed"

I guess coming from Andy "What goes in inside a lady is none of my business, unless her name is Sarah Palin" Sullivan, I shouldn't be surprised.
I expected better from you. My mistake. My only hope is that you only gave this a cursory glance and didn't actually read any of the stories. If you did, and you're a reasonable and intelligent person, you would have come away with a little bit more than this. You also would have noticed that there are stories from "both sides" of the issue. The difference is these people are open minded and can see that there are sometimes heart wrenching, personal decisions to be made, and that there are nuances to this issue and it's not all black and white. You strike me as an intelligent person so, again, I expected better. I will refrain from making that mistake again.

And it didn't come from Andrew Sullivan. It came from his readers and from other websites he pulled together.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:15 AM   #345
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What is so moving about...
I'll add that if you didn't find any of these accounts "moving" then you're a cold hearted person. You're also grossly oversimplifiying. Do better, Beavis.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:26 AM   #346
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Yep. Free contraceptives to all who want them. Honest and objective sex education for the kiddies. Support for women who keep their kids.

What's the right-wing plan? Oh yeah - sex is dirty and filthy, abstinence (praying to God, of course) really works, and besides, the stork brings babies, and single moms are welfare queen moochers, likely with darker than lily-white skin, so they're on their own.
Abortions dissproportionately affect the poor, and the African American community in particular. It's akin to state sanctioned genocide IMHO. Welcome to the liberal agenda!

I propose giving financial assistance to poor families, that is, one husband, one wife, and their kids. However, the family unit must be maintained because it's obvious that single parents homes do not work. So if the state is going to give poor people money when they have kids, just give them more financial help if the husband stays at home. The chance for this family unit to pull themselves out of poverty is much, much better anyway.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:03 PM   #347
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I expected better from you. My mistake. My only hope is that you only gave this a cursory glance and didn't actually read any of the stories. If you did, and you're a reasonable and intelligent person, you would have come away with a little bit more than this. You also would have noticed that there are stories from "both sides" of the issue. The difference is these people are open minded and can see that there are sometimes heart wrenching, personal decisions to be made, and that there are nuances to this issue and it's not all black and white. You strike me as an intelligent person so, again, I expected better. I will refrain from making that mistake again.

And it didn't come from Andrew Sullivan. It came from his readers and from other websites he pulled together.
This is pretty endemic of what's wrong with much of society today, although the parents themselves in this case have no fault. In the end they did what any rational human being would do, taking even a narrow chance at life, without putting their own emotions in front of another's path to existence (which is exactly what 90% of abortions involve)

Whoever wrote that account, however, has a very shallow view of life. Real life lived brings pain as well as joy. Making a living, feeling fetus bear that pain alone to spare yourself the possibility is not a decent approach, even if it worked (in the end it doesn't)

Again, my comment on Sully is that he found it rational to consider snuffing a human life because it only had a 20% chance at survival. Sometime in our lives, most of us will face that same kind of choice personally, or over a loved one. "Nah, let's just end him now and save the heartache" is not the path I trust most people would take.

Unfortunately that veil of mommy's tummy makes the unthinkable suddenly possible for some. Which is what this Gosnell business is really all about.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:12 PM   #348
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Again, my comment on Sully is that he found it rational to consider snuffing a human life because it only had a 20% chance at survival. Sometime in our lives, most of us will face that same kind of choice personally, or over a loved one. "Nah, let's just end him now and save the heartache" is not the path I trust most people would take.
Why are you putting this on "Sully"? Take him out of the equation, if that helps you. He didn't write these stories.

And there is much, much more to these stories than just "chance at survival". There's also pain and suffering, the mother's health, and the advice of medical professionals, for example, to consider.

Keep reading. I think there's a lot to "learn" (for lack of a better word) there.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:25 PM   #349
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over 90% of performed abortions are because the mother just didn't want a baby. They are elective murderes performed for lazy moms and dads who like to screw but don't want the responsibility of kids. Abortion should be legal for rape, incest, or health of the mother and that is all that makes sense in a civilized society.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:40 PM   #350
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over 90% of performed abortions are because the mother just didn't want a baby. They are elective murderes performed for lazy moms and dads who like to screw but don't want the responsibility of kids. Abortion should be legal for rape, incest, or health of the mother and that is all that makes sense in a civilized society.
Finally we agree on a non football topic.
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