Fab Four . . . and only four.. - The Orange Mane

Bronco Rob · 12-31-2010, 07:28 PM

Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover

By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/31/2010 01:00:00 AM MST

The logo on their helmets is an orange-maned horse, but the Broncos might as well slap a big orange question mark in its place.

"Nobody knows who's going to be here, who's going to be making the decisions, who stays, who goes," Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey said. "Nobody knows what kind of team this will be."

The first steps will be taken next week, when the team's assistant coaches are expected to be apprised of their futures and Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway joins the team in a front-office position. Evaluations of Broncos players hint at the second total makeover of the team since Josh McDaniels arrived in 2008.

The Denver Post contacted personnel executives from eight NFL teams to determine how they rank Denver personnel and how much work they believe the Broncos have in front of them in a multiyear rebuilding job.

It is something Broncos chief operating officer Joe Ellis alluded to when he said: "We know we have work to do."

Those personnel executives see an aging, thin roster facing a large talent deficit. Some of it is because of the number of moves McDaniels and the team's personnel department made with the more than three dozen players who were brought in or sent packing in his 22 months on the job.

Of the 53 players on the Broncos' roster, 40 arrived in the last two seasons. That's 74 percent of the roster, and there are another five players on injured reserve who were brought in by the team since the start of 2009.

The personnel execs also say that when the Broncos, under McDaniels, traded away players such as Jay Cutler, Peyton Hillis, Brandon Marshall and Alphonso Smith, they didn't get comparably ranked talent in return.

Teams, and some respected longtime talent consultants such as Mike Giddings, use a color-coding system to rank players. Often, a blue rating represents the elite at a position. Two teams said Bailey was the only Broncos player with such a rating. The other six said the Broncos do not have a "blue" player. On average, a successful playoff team will have three or more "blue" players.

The next level down is Pro Bowl level. The consensus was that Bailey, guard Chris Kuper, outside linebacker Elvis Du- mervil and left tackle Ryan Clady were the only Broncos on this tier.

All four of those players are holdovers from Mike Shana- han's tenure. Several teams said Clady did not quite play to that level this season because of offseason knee surgery, but they expect him to improve with another offseason to improve his leg strength.

The next tier down is that of a solid starter, a capable player who can be productive. None of those surveyed gave the Broncos more than 12 players on this

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19kbEpE4F
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

Requiem · 12-31-2010, 07:35 PM

Yeah, we are a mess.

Killericon · 12-31-2010, 07:37 PM

I must admit, in the dark recesses of my mind, I cannot help but think that at the very least, if there's a lockout, it couldn't've been any more well timed for us.

broncosteven · 12-31-2010, 07:43 PM

Rookie quarterback Tim Te- bow and running back Know- shon Moreno, who was Mc- Daniels' first draft pick in 2009, were among players the personnel executives said they wanted to see more from. Most of those surveyed said they would put Moreno and Tebow just below the level of solid starter with the potential to move up.

Below that are the role players who add depth and can help a team play situational football. On this level, those surveyed agreed on running back Correll Buckhalter; wide receivers Jabar Gaffney and Eric Decker; linebackers Robert Ayers, Mario Haggan and Wesley Woodyard; safety Brian Dawkins; cornerback Syd'Quan Thompson; and cornerback/safety Nate Jones.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19keJUuyb
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

KM is rated just below the level of solid starter and Ayers is a depth guy. I guess they could have been complete out right busts. Would have been nice to get more out of our 1st round picks, maybe the next HC can get them to their true potential.

broncosteven · 12-31-2010, 07:45 PM

On a positive note, I think Kuper would be a starter on any team in the NFL.

vanbrugh · 12-31-2010, 07:47 PM

Happy new year to you jeff too!

You know it's not as bad as it seems.....it never is!

Happy new year - god bless

gunns · 12-31-2010, 07:51 PM

I can't wait till next week. Should begin to create another off season of Orange Mane meltdowns and be very interesting to see the direction they go. Should be a quick off season.

GoBroncos84 · 12-31-2010, 07:52 PM

Which is why I think it's so imperative that Champ Bailey finishes his career a Bronco. He is a very critical and reliable piece we can build around. Dumervil coming back from injury makes us instantly better. Those are the cornerstone pieces on defense. The rest of that unit needs an overhaul. Some players, like D.J. and Ayers, can flourish if we improve our defensive line. That would also improve our secondary just by improving the pass rush. But if we lose Bailey, that gives us one truly premiere player on defense to build on. And if we go back to a 4-3 that would somewhat hinder his impact as well. Offensively, I think we are much closer. Beadles and Walton will improve, they have shown flashes of what they can be but overall they've been inconsistent and lacked dominance, like most rookies. Clady and Harris can be bookends if they are both healthy. Injuries are a trend for Harris, unfortunately, but he is tough and tries to play through them. We are very deep and talented at receiver. Five deep, definitely a position of strength. Moreno is a difference maker and all around talent when he is healthy, which as we know has been an issue. We lack a vertical threat at tight end, and can't even really count on our tight ends in the receiving game at all. Could upgrade at fullback, improve depth and talent behind Moreno. Then it just depends on how Tebow develops. That side of the ball isn't nearly as dire. Three first round picks in the last two years dedicated to offensive skill positions. This team just needs massive upgrades on defense. That has to be the priority this offseason, no matter who is coaching or coordinating or in the front office.

Broncoman13 · 12-31-2010, 08:32 PM

But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team

OrangenBlueOhio · 12-31-2010, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broncoman13

But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team

He meant talent like "America's Got Talent".

TonyR · 12-31-2010, 08:46 PM

This might be the most disappointing part of the article:

At this level, there was some disagreement with a few teams offering that rookie center J.D. Walton and rookie guard Zane Beadles have potential to make a jump for next season, but none of the teams rank Walton or Beadles as long-term starters. The two rookies have started every game for the Broncos.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19kuhFAZL

snowspot66 · 12-31-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyR

This might be the most disappointing part of the article:

At this level, there was some disagreement with a few teams offering that rookie center J.D. Walton and rookie guard Zane Beadles have potential to make a jump for next season, but none of the teams rank Walton or Beadles as long-term starters. The two rookies have started every game for the Broncos.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19kuhFAZL

Walton was the second center taken in the entire draft. How about these front office people give the kid a little time before they go making bold predictions?

Boomhauer · 01-01-2011, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowspot66

Walton was the second center taken in the entire draft. How about these front office people give the kid a little time before they go making bold predictions?

I agree with the idea Walton could make a jump next season. He seems to have all the abilities, just isn't consitent, let alone dominant, yet. Beadles is another story. Big guy off the snap with the quickness to pull well, but very poor feet and balance. He's a liability in protection and can't engage when he does pull. ie: On Tebow's running TD against Houston, Tebow probably reversed because of Beadles' embaressing block ... or should I say stumble.

snowspot66 · 01-01-2011, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomhauer

I agree with the idea Walton could make a jump next season. He seems to have all the abilities, just isn't consitent, let alone dominant, yet. Beadles is another story. Big guy off the snap with the quickness to pull well, but very poor feet and balance. He's a liability in protection and can't engage when he does pull. ie: On Tebow's running TD against Houston, Tebow probably reversed because of Beadles' embaressing block ... or should I say stumble.

I think a big part of the problem is coaching. Who the hell do we even have "coaching" these guys?

Cito Pelon · 01-01-2011, 02:06 AM

"It is always darkest before the dawn."

There is some potential with the 2010 draftees.

maher_tyler · 01-01-2011, 07:21 AM

Brandon Loyd?? Thomas??

TonyR · 01-01-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maher_tyler

Brandon Loyd?? Thomas??

The next tier down is that of a solid starter, a capable player who can be productive. None of those surveyed gave the Broncos more than 12 players on this level, far fewer than a playoff hopeful. This list includes quarterback Kyle Orton; wide receivers Eddie Royal, Demaryius Thomas and Brandon Lloyd; linebacker D.J. Williams; nose tackle Jamal Williams; cornerback Andre Goodman; and tight end Daniel Graham.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19nsfImvn

LonghornBronco · 01-01-2011, 09:38 AM

Well obviously some people consider Lloyd Pro Bowl level...

Hamrob · 01-01-2011, 10:00 AM

I think they put too much into what they believe to be talent and what is not. Both Walton and Beadles were in Mayocks top 5 for their positions...and last year was a deep draft. Everyone hate's Tebow...but, he just happened to be perhaps the best college football player of all time. Where do you think these idiots would have placed Ed McCaffery and Rod Smith?

Personally, I don't buy this crap...that it will take us years to turn this around.

Offensively: I think our offense is rich with talent...we need to improver our stable of RB's, draft a pass catching TE and allow our Oline to play together for another offseason. That can be achieved in 1 offseason!

Defensively: I think we can bring in a couple free agents to go with 4-5 rookies and the guys we currently have (DJ, Mays, Ayers, Mcbath, Bruton, Cox, Doom, Vickerson etc.). We should resign Champ to a 3yr deal. And ensure that 2-3 of those rookies can contribute right away. If we do this, this defense will go from last in the NFL to 10-15 in the NFL.

Special Teams: This area was not bad this year and should be even better next year.

So, with a top 10 offense, a much improved defense and quality special teams. I really feel we can challenge for the division and the playoffs next year. Sure, a couple years should make us even better...but, we can get back into this next year if we work hard at achieving it the right way. Screw all these "Other Teams" personnel evaluators!!!

strafen · 01-01-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broncoman13

But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team

And that we were signing studs left and right!

19Morton77 · 01-01-2011, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broncoman13

But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team

Well, thanks to McDaniels, we are totally stacked!

Broncoman13 · 01-01-2011, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamrob

I think they put too much into what they believe to be talent and what is not. Both Walton and Beadles were in Mayocks top 5 for their positions...and last year was a deep draft. Everyone hate's Tebow...but, he just happened to be perhaps the best college football player of all time. Where do you think these idiots would have placed Ed McCaffery and Rod Smith?

Personally, I don't buy this crap...that it will take us years to turn this around.

Offensively: I think our offense is rich with talent...we need to improver our stable of RB's, draft a pass catching TE and allow our Oline to play together for another offseason. That can be achieved in 1 offseason!

Defensively: I think we can bring in a couple free agents to go with 4-5 rookies and the guys we currently have (DJ, Mays, Ayers, Mcbath, Bruton, Cox, Doom, Vickerson etc.). We should resign Champ to a 3yr deal. And ensure that 2-3 of those rookies can contribute right away. If we do this, this defense will go from last in the NFL to 10-15 in the NFL.

Special Teams: This area was not bad this year and should be even better next year.

So, with a top 10 offense, a much improved defense and quality special teams. I really feel we can challenge for the division and the playoffs next year. Sure, a couple years should make us even better...but, we can get back into this next year if we work hard at achieving it the right way. Screw all these "Other Teams" personnel evaluators!!!

Mmmkay. And how exactly do you "ensure" rookies contribute?

Hamrob · 01-01-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broncoman13

Mmmkay. And how exactly do you "ensure" rookies contribute?

You draft studs and you plug them in! We should be able to get at least 2 of those guys in this draft.

On another note:

Here's an article on Walton and Beadles:

http://www.dailycamera.com/broncos-n...555?source=rss

Broncoman13 · 01-01-2011, 10:53 AM

Still a crapshoot Hamrob. You never know how a rookie is going to perform at the next level. Aaron Curry was considered a can't miss prospect and would be a plug and play guy from day one... he struggled. Just over 50 tackles from the #4 overall pick and a guy that most considered the "safest" can't miss prospect.

The list of Defensive Lineman that couldn't come in and contribute as rookies is long as well. I mean, look at Dwayne Robertson.

rovolution · 01-01-2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowspot66

Walton was the second center taken in the entire draft. How about these front office people give the kid a little time before they go making bold predictions?

Pro Football Focus has him ranked as the 2nd worst center in the NFL

12-31-2010, 07:28 PM	#1
Bronco Rob Ring of Famer There's A New Sheriff In Town Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 4,587 Adopt-a-Bronco: Bill Vinovich	Fab Four . . . and only four.. Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover By Jeff Legwold The Denver Post Posted: 12/31/2010 01:00:00 AM MST The logo on their helmets is an orange-maned horse, but the Broncos might as well slap a big orange question mark in its place. "Nobody knows who's going to be here, who's going to be making the decisions, who stays, who goes," Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey said. "Nobody knows what kind of team this will be." The first steps will be taken next week, when the team's assistant coaches are expected to be apprised of their futures and Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway joins the team in a front-office position. Evaluations of Broncos players hint at the second total makeover of the team since Josh McDaniels arrived in 2008. The Denver Post contacted personnel executives from eight NFL teams to determine how they rank Denver personnel and how much work they believe the Broncos have in front of them in a multiyear rebuilding job. It is something Broncos chief operating officer Joe Ellis alluded to when he said: "We know we have work to do." Those personnel executives see an aging, thin roster facing a large talent deficit. Some of it is because of the number of moves McDaniels and the team's personnel department made with the more than three dozen players who were brought in or sent packing in his 22 months on the job. Of the 53 players on the Broncos' roster, 40 arrived in the last two seasons. That's 74 percent of the roster, and there are another five players on injured reserve who were brought in by the team since the start of 2009. The personnel execs also say that when the Broncos, under McDaniels, traded away players such as Jay Cutler, Peyton Hillis, Brandon Marshall and Alphonso Smith, they didn't get comparably ranked talent in return. Teams, and some respected longtime talent consultants such as Mike Giddings, use a color-coding system to rank players. Often, a blue rating represents the elite at a position. Two teams said Bailey was the only Broncos player with such a rating. The other six said the Broncos do not have a "blue" player. On average, a successful playoff team will have three or more "blue" players. The next level down is Pro Bowl level. The consensus was that Bailey, guard Chris Kuper, outside linebacker Elvis Du- mervil and left tackle Ryan Clady were the only Broncos on this tier. All four of those players are holdovers from Mike Shana- han's tenure. Several teams said Clady did not quite play to that level this season because of offseason knee surgery, but they expect him to improve with another offseason to improve his leg strength. The next tier down is that of a solid starter, a capable player who can be productive. None of those surveyed gave the Broncos more than 12 players on this Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19kbEpE4F Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

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12-31-2010, 07:35 PM	#2
Requiem ~~~ ~ ~ ~ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Earth Division Posts: 19,517 Adopt-a-Bronco: Gilgamesh	Yeah, we are a mess.

12-31-2010, 07:37 PM	#3
Killericon YES A DT!!!!!! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: From Calgary, in Halifax for School Posts: 7,730 Adopt-a-Bronco: watermock	I must admit, in the dark recesses of my mind, I cannot help but think that at the very least, if there's a lockout, it couldn't've been any more well timed for us.

12-31-2010, 07:43 PM	#4
broncosteven The Kranz Dictum MWA: Flight Director Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 29,015 Adopt-a-Bronco: MONEYBALL #38	Rookie quarterback Tim Te- bow and running back Know- shon Moreno, who was Mc- Daniels' first draft pick in 2009, were among players the personnel executives said they wanted to see more from. Most of those surveyed said they would put Moreno and Tebow just below the level of solid starter with the potential to move up. Below that are the role players who add depth and can help a team play situational football. On this level, those surveyed agreed on running back Correll Buckhalter; wide receivers Jabar Gaffney and Eric Decker; linebackers Robert Ayers, Mario Haggan and Wesley Woodyard; safety Brian Dawkins; cornerback Syd'Quan Thompson; and cornerback/safety Nate Jones. Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19keJUuyb Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse KM is rated just below the level of solid starter and Ayers is a depth guy. I guess they could have been complete out right busts. Would have been nice to get more out of our 1st round picks, maybe the next HC can get them to their true potential.

12-31-2010, 07:45 PM	#5
broncosteven The Kranz Dictum MWA: Flight Director Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 29,015 Adopt-a-Bronco: MONEYBALL #38	On a positive note, I think Kuper would be a starter on any team in the NFL.

12-31-2010, 07:47 PM	#6
vanbrugh Solid Starter New to the Forum Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 170 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Happy new year to you jeff too! You know it's not as bad as it seems.....it never is! Happy new year - god bless

12-31-2010, 07:51 PM	#7
gunns I WANT DEFENSE! Defense, defense, defense Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Always Hoping Posts: 11,649 Adopt-a-Bronco: Defense	I can't wait till next week. Should begin to create another off season of Orange Mane meltdowns and be very interesting to see the direction they go. Should be a quick off season.

12-31-2010, 07:52 PM	#8
GoBroncos84 Perennial Pro-bowler Crucify the Ego Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 758 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	Which is why I think it's so imperative that Champ Bailey finishes his career a Bronco. He is a very critical and reliable piece we can build around. Dumervil coming back from injury makes us instantly better. Those are the cornerstone pieces on defense. The rest of that unit needs an overhaul. Some players, like D.J. and Ayers, can flourish if we improve our defensive line. That would also improve our secondary just by improving the pass rush. But if we lose Bailey, that gives us one truly premiere player on defense to build on. And if we go back to a 4-3 that would somewhat hinder his impact as well. Offensively, I think we are much closer. Beadles and Walton will improve, they have shown flashes of what they can be but overall they've been inconsistent and lacked dominance, like most rookies. Clady and Harris can be bookends if they are both healthy. Injuries are a trend for Harris, unfortunately, but he is tough and tries to play through them. We are very deep and talented at receiver. Five deep, definitely a position of strength. Moreno is a difference maker and all around talent when he is healthy, which as we know has been an issue. We lack a vertical threat at tight end, and can't even really count on our tight ends in the receiving game at all. Could upgrade at fullback, improve depth and talent behind Moreno. Then it just depends on how Tebow develops. That side of the ball isn't nearly as dire. Three first round picks in the last two years dedicated to offensive skill positions. This team just needs massive upgrades on defense. That has to be the priority this offseason, no matter who is coaching or coordinating or in the front office.

12-31-2010, 08:32 PM	#9
Broncoman13 Broncoholic JT #80 Join Date: May 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 16,961 Adopt-a-Bronco: Orange Julius	But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team

12-31-2010, 08:46 PM	#11
TonyR Franchise Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Mid-Atlantic Posts: 15,547	This might be the most disappointing part of the article: At this level, there was some disagreement with a few teams offering that rookie center J.D. Walton and rookie guard Zane Beadles have potential to make a jump for next season, but none of the teams rank Walton or Beadles as long-term starters. The two rookies have started every game for the Broncos. Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz19kuhFAZL

01-01-2011, 02:06 AM	#15
Cito Pelon Attack at all times . . . Happy dog at the Divide Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: AFC West Championshipville Posts: 15,192 Adopt-a-Bronco: Elvis	"It is always darkest before the dawn." There is some potential with the 2010 draftees.

01-01-2011, 07:21 AM	#16
maher_tyler Ring of Famer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: AZ Posts: 5,667 Adopt-a-Bronco: Champ Bailey	Brandon Loyd?? Thomas??

01-01-2011, 09:38 AM	#18
LonghornBronco Ring of Famer Hook'em Horns Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin Posts: 1,356 Adopt-a-Bronco: Rahim Moore	Well obviously some people consider Lloyd Pro Bowl level...

01-01-2011, 10:00 AM	#19
Hamrob All-American! All-American! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: DFW Posts: 4,747 Adopt-a-Bronco: Peyton Manning	I think they put too much into what they believe to be talent and what is not. Both Walton and Beadles were in Mayocks top 5 for their positions...and last year was a deep draft. Everyone hate's Tebow...but, he just happened to be perhaps the best college football player of all time. Where do you think these idiots would have placed Ed McCaffery and Rod Smith? Personally, I don't buy this crap...that it will take us years to turn this around. Offensively: I think our offense is rich with talent...we need to improver our stable of RB's, draft a pass catching TE and allow our Oline to play together for another offseason. That can be achieved in 1 offseason! Defensively: I think we can bring in a couple free agents to go with 4-5 rookies and the guys we currently have (DJ, Mays, Ayers, Mcbath, Bruton, Cox, Doom, Vickerson etc.). We should resign Champ to a 3yr deal. And ensure that 2-3 of those rookies can contribute right away. If we do this, this defense will go from last in the NFL to 10-15 in the NFL. Special Teams: This area was not bad this year and should be even better next year. So, with a top 10 offense, a much improved defense and quality special teams. I really feel we can challenge for the division and the playoffs next year. Sure, a couple years should make us even better...but, we can get back into this next year if we work hard at achieving it the right way. Screw all these "Other Teams" personnel evaluators!!!

01-01-2011, 10:53 AM	#24
Broncoman13 Broncoholic JT #80 Join Date: May 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 16,961 Adopt-a-Bronco: Orange Julius	Still a crapshoot Hamrob. You never know how a rookie is going to perform at the next level. Aaron Curry was considered a can't miss prospect and would be a plug and play guy from day one... he struggled. Just over 50 tackles from the #4 overall pick and a guy that most considered the "safest" can't miss prospect. The list of Defensive Lineman that couldn't come in and contribute as rookies is long as well. I mean, look at Dwayne Robertson.