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Old 12-29-2010, 12:59 PM   #1
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Default Zone Blocking

I know McD changed the way our line blocks and suddenly we went from a great line to one of the worst. Ryan Harris was considered amazing a couple of years ago, and Clady didn't look like his usual self. Of course there are many possible factors here, injuries are a strong possibility, but with Kuper, Clady, and Harris all playing beneath the level they'd played at just a couple of years ago, I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.

I understood the idea behind the scheme change on the oline--we were terrible in the redzone. But we still are. And now our runningbacks don't look half as good.

I think we have personnel perfectly suited for the zoneblocking scheme, and this could also help someone like Moreno not bust out. I am worried about how good he is going to be.

The question would be--with Dennison gone, are there any coaching candidates out there who can come back in and implement it? Would it be worth doing so?

If the scheme change plays to the strengths of Harris and Kuper that saves us a lot of trouble in terms of the draft allowing us to focus more on defense.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:04 PM   #2
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I know McD changed the way our line blocks and suddenly we went from a great line to one of the worst. Ryan Harris was considered amazing a couple of years ago, and Clady didn't look like his usual self. Of course there are many possible factors here, injuries are a strong possibility, but with Kuper, Clady, and Harris all playing beneath the level they'd played at just a couple of years ago, I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.

I understood the idea behind the scheme change on the oline--we were terrible in the redzone. But we still are. And now our runningbacks don't look half as good.

I think we have personnel perfectly suited for the zoneblocking scheme, and this could also help someone like Moreno not bust out. I am worried about how good he is going to be.

The question would be--with Dennison gone, are there any coaching candidates out there who can come back in and implement it? Would it be worth doing so?

If the scheme change plays to the strengths of Harris and Kuper that saves us a lot of trouble in terms of the draft allowing us to focus more on defense.
all teams zone block....Denver even did it last game. A team that relies on total ZBS will not survive against 3-4 Defenses and physical teams. Chaulk the injuries up to Kuper, Clady, and Harris as well as the inexperience of Beatles and Walton as to the poor line play. They have improved as the season has gone on.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:09 PM   #3
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I think our OL is nothing but a bunch of fat guys that get beat at the snap, and dominated at the point of attack.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:17 PM   #4
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I think our OL is nothing but a bunch of fat guys that get beat at the snap, and dominated at the point of attack.
Yup.
They need to get either fatter or faster.
They're on the fence, and the fence wobbles.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:21 PM   #5
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Hey Steeldude! How have you been?
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:22 PM   #6
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We need to sign Mike Tice away from the Bears!
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:22 PM   #7
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A big part of O-Line success is continuity. It's a team within the team. First and foremost we need to have the same 5 guys, with at least average ability, play/practice together week in and week out. Other than that we have to have good coaching and solid blocking assignments. I don't think it's so much scheme as execution.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:48 PM   #8
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actually since they started the 1st and goal tebow situations, have we been bad in the redzone?
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:50 PM   #9
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I do miss the borderline cut blocks and watching Chiefs cry to the refs......
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:51 PM   #10
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I do miss the borderline cut blocks and watching Chiefs cry to the refs......
yeah me too.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:13 PM   #11
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I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.
The scheme isn't to blame, but the transition. The same guys would have the same issues if they had been man blocking all their lives and were asked to zone block exclusively.

Great OL play is as much about coordination as a unit as it is about the individual parts.

Between the change in the scheme and the rotating personnel, there was very little coordination across the OL for the first half of the season. There has been noticeable improvement since then.

With the development of Beadles and Walton and another year in the scheme I expect much better play from the OL from week 1.

Harris to me is the real question mark. If we can only count on him for 8-9 games a year, I think we're better off trying to pick up another RT either trough the draft or FA.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:20 PM   #12
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actually since they started the 1st and goal tebow situations, have we been bad in the redzone?
We've been tearing up the red zone lately.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:21 PM   #13
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Great running backs make even average linemen look good.

Just sayin...



I'll second the previous statement about every team running some plays with zone blocking, and some with straight up man or power blocking schemes. It's also a problem with becoming too predictable. When a defense figures out your scheme too easily, they can find ways to pulverize you.

I think we need a speedy homerun threat RB, and a quick, pass catching TE. If we are moving forward with Tebow, let's just install the whole Florida package...
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:25 PM   #14
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I think Michael Lombardi summed up the ZBS very well in one of his articles a while back -

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"I am not a big fan of the zone running scheme being employed in Seattle, Washington and Houston. It had its place in the late 90s, and sure individual rushers like Arian Foster this season can have success. ...But now it has become pretty much obsolete in this sense: When a team running the zone scheme gets behind in the game and the defense knows they have to pass, their offensive line cannot pass protect and they end up getting further behind. The longer the game goes, the lack of size and physical toughness of their line wears down. The entire team becomes soft, and the defense lacks the ability to handle power. The system might have worked back in the day, but being a small offensive line -- or a light line -- does not win when the opponent knows it's a passing game."
What he just described was Denver's offense 2001-2008.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Finkle View Post
all teams zone block....Denver even did it last game. A team that relies on total ZBS will not survive against 3-4 Defenses and physical teams. Chaulk the injuries up to Kuper, Clady, and Harris as well as the inexperience of Beatles and Walton as to the poor line play. They have improved as the season has gone on.
If that is true, how on earth did the Broncos regularly beat the Patriots during the Shanahan tenure? How did Shanahan go in to Pittsburgh and beat the Cowher Steelers in 97? How did he beat the Packers in the super bowl?

Saying that it "cant work" or "will not survive" is silly. It's a proven system that can work, given the right personnel.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:47 PM   #16
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If that is true, how on earth did the Broncos regularly beat the Patriots during the Shanahan tenure? How did Shanahan go in to Pittsburgh and beat the Cowher Steelers in 97? How did he beat the Packers in the super bowl?

Saying that it "cant work" or "will not survive" is silly. It's a proven system that can work, given the right personnel.
wow...you pick what, 5 games out Shanahan's 14 years as validation? Let's remember that the 97 team had 3 HOF and probably a few borderline HOF's on offense.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:53 PM   #17
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Great running backs make even average linemen look good.

Just sayin...
I think you have that backwards.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:02 PM   #18
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Hey Steeldude! How have you been?
Uh oh. Now you've done it.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:14 PM   #19
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The problem is not with the scheme, it's with the personnel running it.

The reason why ZBS is attractive to some is that because it's only used largely by very few teams, the kind of OL that fit the bill for it can be found later in the draft. Those guys take a few years to develop but provide a pretty good investment for return where they were drafted.

If teams used high round picks on OL that were BOTH athletic and physically able to dominate (ie Ryan Clady) then the ZBS would be just as effective down the stretch as man blocking schemes.

Ultimately coaching also plays a big part. You don't have to have 5 stud OL to run good plays. Just the ability to recognize talent and use it in the right scheme like using an athletic G to pull or get to the 2nd level rather than insisting they stay at home and go toe to toe against 330 lb DTs which most guards can't do alone regardless of schemes.

Conversely you could have idiot coaches who dump OL talent, then insist on going into the season with a rookie C and cast off practice squad OL at Guard and end up with trash up front because you're a fist pumping moron.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:28 PM   #20
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My Brother has an idea about ZBS.

It works better in Denver because of the altitude. Those Smaller guys can run longer, and do more, and take bigger advantage of their athleticism than big guys can in the environment.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:32 PM   #21
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The problem is not with the scheme, it's with the personnel running it.

The reason why ZBS is attractive to some is that because it's only used largely by very few teams, the kind of OL that fit the bill for it can be found later in the draft. Those guys take a few years to develop but provide a pretty good investment for return where they were drafted.

If teams used high round picks on OL that were BOTH athletic and physically able to dominate (ie Ryan Clady) then the ZBS would be just as effective down the stretch as man blocking schemes.

Ultimately coaching also plays a big part. You don't have to have 5 stud OL to run good plays. Just the ability to recognize talent and use it in the right scheme like using an athletic G to pull or get to the 2nd level rather than insisting they stay at home and go toe to toe against 330 lb DTs which most guards can't do alone regardless of schemes.

Conversely you could have idiot coaches who dump OL talent, then insist on going into the season with a rookie C and cast off practice squad OL at Guard and end up with trash up front because you're a fist pumping moron.
This is correct. When people see a small guy get shoved around, they incorrectly come to the conclusion that its a system problem and not a personnel problem. The truth is that there are players who are strong enough, technical enough, and mobile enough to run it without getting pushed around so much. This system has functioned well at the goal line for various teams and continues to.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:55 PM   #22
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Fu ZBS. Fu to changeing the scheme again. We need continuoty
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:21 PM   #23
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I think Michael Lombardi summed up the ZBS very well in one of his articles a while back -



What he just described was Denver's offense 2001-2008.
When you have the kind of OL we had from 95-2000 with a mobile QB the ZBS is a great fit. With guys like Orton it would be EPIC FAIL but now that we have Tebow who can be a legit threat at the goalline I would like to see a return to the ZBS.

DLineman can't catch KM 20 yards down field if they are on the ground.
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:29 PM   #24
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When you have the kind of OL we had from 95-2000 with a mobile QB the ZBS is a great fit. With guys like Orton it would be EPIC FAIL but now that we have Tebow who can be a legit threat at the goalline I would like to see a return to the ZBS.

DLineman can't catch KM 20 yards down field if they are on the ground.

Tend to agree some here. If your oline can't hold up in known passing situations, you'd better have a mobile QB. Not sure we need to go back to heavy ZBS though. I think we'll be fine, as long as we maintain continuity.
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:29 PM   #25
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actually since they started the 1st and goal tebow situations, have we been bad in the redzone?
I think we are #1 in goal to go situations this year. Tebow time!
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