DADT Repeal Approved

[That One Guy]

Just saw that the repeal to Don't ask, Don't tell made it out of congress. Very, very disappointed.

What irks me most is that they said any issues and problems can just be overcome through training. Yeah, soldiers have been offing themselves at record numbers despite a double-triple in suicide awareness training - forgive me if I don't trust them to solve anything with training.

Just for curiousity, those who backed the repeal : Imagine you have two male soldiers, one has been making the interest in the other known but it is not a mutual interest. You're deployed and shower trailers are the only option. The straight soldier says he doesn't feel comfortable showering because he thinks the other soldier keeps looking at him in the shower. How do you resolve that situation?

[Prodigal19]

I agree. We should definitely be catering to the bigots. I think we should also make sure blacks get kicked out of the military because there are a few racists in the military. **** human rights.

[Requiem]

I tell them to get over it.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by Prodigal19

I agree. We should definitely be catering to the bigots. I think we should also make sure blacks get kicked out of the military because there are a few racists in the military. **** human rights.

As has been discussed in other threads, there's a difference between race and sexuality. Pull up the Qatar FIFA thread to debate that particular topic.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by Requiem

I tell them to get over it.

Great. Sounds about like what the military will actually do. Then we'll see more gays being beaten (well, you'll likely never hear about it) or killed when things get out of hand.

My point here is that it's not the big things that make the difference. It wont be someone stopping in the middle of a shootout to refuse to fight next to a gay. It's gonna be the interruption of the unit integrity that will make them sloppy and will cause the detriment.

But, again, I expect the military to take it as seriously as you just did. Once again, thankful I've left that life and wont be returning.

[Requiem]

Nice.

[Pony Boy]

gay_military.jpg

[Pony Boy]

No turning back now.......

[Prodigal19]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

As has been discussed in other threads, there's a difference between race and sexuality. Pull up the Qatar FIFA thread to debate that particular topic.

Awesome. I just took a look. The only post that really seems to compare sexuality to race is your initial one. The rest of the posts seem to talk about whether or not sexuality is a choice. You also seem to realize that it is not a choice. I dont see how you can come to the conclusion that you should limit right of a group of people due to something that isnt a choice.

The problem here isn't that there are gays in the military. It is that there are people that are uncomfortable around gays. However, unlike sexuality, your feelings on homosexuality can change. After you are around homosexuals for a while you realize that society has been wrong and that they are the same as everyone else, they just like the opposite sex.

If you are uncomfortable being the shower with another gay guy then get over it. Its ridiculous to think that gay guys are going to try to rape you or something. People in America are uncomfortable with homosexuality only because society has taught them to be that way. That is why it isnt a problem in many European countries, because they don grow up in a society that denounces homosexuality.

There are always going to be homosexuals, and there is nothing that can be done about that. And there is nothing that should be done about it since there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. The best thing we can do is gget rid of homophobia is our society, and that starts by giving homosexuals the same rights as everyone else.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by Prodigal19

Awesome. I just took a look. The only post that really seems to compare sexuality to race is your initial one. The rest of the posts seem to talk about whether or not sexuality is a choice. You also seem to realize that it is not a choice. I dont see how you can come to the conclusion that you should limit right of a group of people due to something that isnt a choice.

The problem here isn't that there are gays in the military. It is that there are people that are uncomfortable around gays. However, unlike sexuality, your feelings on homosexuality can change. After you are around homosexuals for a while you realize that society has been wrong and that they are the same as everyone else, they just like the opposite sex.

If you are uncomfortable being the shower with another gay guy then get over it. Its ridiculous to think that gay guys are going to try to rape you or something. People in America are uncomfortable with homosexuality only because society has taught them to be that way. That is why it isnt a problem in many European countries, because they don grow up in a society that denounces homosexuality.

There are always going to be homosexuals, and there is nothing that can be done about that. And there is nothing that should be done about it since there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. The best thing we can do is gget rid of homophobia is our society, and that starts by giving homosexuals the same rights as everyone else.

In specific terms of the words, it may not have been mentioned repeatedly. It was the question of whether it's a choice or not that distinguishes it from race. You can't help being black. You can't hide it, you can't change it, you can't influence it in any way.


As for all the rest, I ask another question I've asked in similar threads before but never gotten a satisfactory answer to. Why do we continue to provide seperate male and female sleeping, showering, etc areas for the military? Do females deserve a protection from men that other men don't deserve? In the old scenario, gay men had a responsibility to keep any issues to themselves but now that they can openly ogle, where do you draw the line on who should receive special considerations?

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

How do you resolve that situation?

You tell the straight soldier to quit being such a pansy.

[Bronco Yoda]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

Just saw that the repeal to Don't ask, Don't tell made it out of congress. Very, very disappointed.

What irks me most is that they said any issues and problems can just be overcome through training. Yeah, soldiers have been offing themselves at record numbers despite a double-triple in suicide awareness training - forgive me if I don't trust them to solve anything with training.

Just for curiousity, those who backed the repeal : Imagine you have two male soldiers, one has been making the interest in the other known but it is not a mutual interest. You're deployed and shower trailers are the only option. The straight soldier says he doesn't feel comfortable showering because he thinks the other soldier keeps looking at him in the shower. How do you resolve that situation?

Time to grow up as a nation and as individuals.

Why should we deny someone who loves his or her country the right to fight for it, over 'who' they love.

[sirhcyennek81]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

Just for curiousity, those who backed the repeal : Imagine you have two male soldiers, one has been making the interest in the other known but it is not a mutual interest. You're deployed and shower trailers are the only option. The straight soldier says he doesn't feel comfortable showering because he thinks the other soldier keeps looking at him in the shower. How do you resolve that situation?

Remind the straight soldier that in the course of his life he has more than likely showered with a gay dude present.

Shockingly I dont mind that DADT was repealed...but I do question the timing. Much like gay marriage for the republicans in 2004, DADT is not the most pressing issue facing the American people at present.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda

Time to grow up as a nation and as individuals.

Why should we deny someone who loves his or her country the right to fight for it, over 'who' they love.

That was never the issue. The issue was for those gay people, is it worth it to you to keep your sexual orientation to yourself and serve or to be open about it and lose your career?

The article I read said 92% of soldiers who responded to the survey said they had served with someone they believed to be gay and it did not affect the unit negatively. This was my experience as well. There was some ribbing with one guy but it was generally good natured among friends. I promise, it wouldn't have been had he ever admitted it. One guy, a habitual liar, even claimed the guy admitted it and some tried to turn it from ribbing to attacks almost instantly. Everyone knew the liar and his ways so it blew over and the nicer joking returned.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by sirhcyennek81

Remind the straight soldier that in the course of his life he has more than likely showered with a gay dude present.

Shockingly I dont mind that DADT was repealed...but I do question the timing. Much like gay marriage for the republicans in 2004, DADT is not the most pressing issue facing the American people at present.

Ignorance is bliss. Once they know the guy is gay, the scenario changes.

This could very well end up being a true issue and it can't be simply dismissed, in my opinion.

All I've ever known was military and through my wife being in still, I still haven't left the mentality as it's everywhere around me though I'm no longer in myself. Other than the drag queen type flamers, I don't have anything against gay people. I just worry about the detrimental effects down the road. Society may have changed since the killing 10 years ago but I don't think the army has much, in my experiences.

And I still ask someone's opinions on the considerations factor. Why should we continue to give females an area for them to do their business away from males if sexuality is going to be taken out of the equation? What other special circumstances are there?

[Bronco Yoda]

I doubt you'll see that much change at first. You're not going to see gay pride parades down the barracks. It's not like there isn't gay people in the military now already. I'm sure most gay people will still keep it on the down low. They're there to serve their country and provide for their families not make some sort of gay pride statement.

IMO, all this means is we'll attract more people to enlist. People who won't have to lie about who they are. Seems like a win, win to me.

[Bronco Yoda]

This will change America. The ramifications of this is monumental for our social society, not just the military.

They say very few bonds are as strong as those with your brothers in arms. It's in your young adult formative years combined with high stress. Now imagine straight and gay going through this together in an open atmosphere. Ten years from now, we're going to see a much more inclusive society.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda

I doubt you'll see that much change at first. You're not going to see gay pride parades down the barracks. It's not like there isn't gay people in the military now already. I'm sure most gay people will still keep it on the down low. They're there to serve their country and provide for their families not make some sort of gay pride statement.

IMO, all this means is we'll attract more people to enlist. People who won't have to lie about who they are. Seems like a win, win to me.

If I could be assured of that, my entire opinion on DADT would change. Be gay, whatever, but I guess I envision people taking the opportunity to exploit it as much as possible as that's the military way. You get given an inch, you hit the end of that inch going 100 MPH just because you can.

In the military, your social life has to evolve almost entirely around those you work with. You just spend so much time. There've been plenty of times I felt more a part of my military family than my real family (probably because I spent more time of my marriage deployed than at home in the beginning) so I just wonder what could happen. It wont necessarily, just what could. We shall see. I REALLY hope it is as you say and some ignorant, arrogant ****s don't take it as an opportunity to throw their gayness in everyone's face.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda

This will change America. The ramifications of this is monumental for our social society, not just the military.

They say very few bonds are as strong as those with your brothers in arms. It's in your young adult formative years combined with high stress. Now imagine straight and gay going through this together in an open atmosphere. Ten years from now, we're going to see a much more inclusive society.

I saw that as an argument being used for it. In my opinion though, gay males never make that connection. All that I've worked with that were suspected were outcasts. Lesbians generally seem to incorporate with the males and do ok but the presumed-gay men never seem to fit in the same.

[Bronco Yoda]

Well, I'm neither gay nor in the Military so what the hell do I really know.

But personaly I'm glad to see this get passed. I know many will disagree for many reasons.

[Prodigal19]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

In specific terms of the words, it may not have been mentioned repeatedly. It was the question of whether it's a choice or not that distinguishes it from race. You can't help being black. You can't hide it, you can't change it, you can't influence it in any way.


As for all the rest, I ask another question I've asked in similar threads before but never gotten a satisfactory answer to. Why do we continue to provide seperate male and female sleeping, showering, etc areas for the military? Do females deserve a protection from men that other men don't deserve? In the old scenario, gay men had a responsibility to keep any issues to themselves but now that they can openly ogle, where do you draw the line on who should receive special considerations?

I assume that the main reason for separate sleeping quarters and showers is to protect the women than anything else. I really don't see straight males needing this same protection from homosexuals. As I mentioned earlier, I just don't see homosexuals trying to rape any straight guys. I also dont feel that that some guys problems with "ogling" is legitimate enough of a reason restrict gays from serving. I think they really just need to get over it. Other countries that allow gays to serve have shown that this is not a problem.

[That One Guy]

Originally Posted by Prodigal19

I assume that the main reason for separate sleeping quarters and showers is to protect the women than anything else. I really don't see straight males needing this same protection from homosexuals. As I mentioned earlier, I just don't see homosexuals trying to rape any straight guys. I also dont feel that that some guys problems with "ogling" is legitimate enough of a reason restrict gays from serving. I think they really just need to get over it. Other countries that allow gays to serve have shown that this is not a problem.

So guys are going to rape any women they see naked but those same guys wont rape men that they desire?

If women are so weak, do you think they should be taken from our military entirely? Put in a kitchen or teaching children, perhaps? You make them defenseless against being raped and at the mercy of the men. Why in the world are we fighting wars with them?

How sexist of you!

[Prodigal19]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

So guys are going to rape any women they see naked but those same guys wont rape men that they desire?

If women are so weak, do you think they should be taken from our military entirely? Put in a kitchen or teaching children, perhaps? You make them defenseless against being raped and at the mercy of the men. Why in the world are we fighting wars with them?

How sexist of you!

No they are not so weak that they cannot serve, but relative to men they are generally weaker. That is not an opinion, it is a biological fact.

Gays could already serve in the military and aren't raping other guys. Why would they be more likely to rape if they are out?

Just curious, what do you imagine would happen if men and women did sleep and shower together?

[cutthemdown]

I can't believe it took this long. Props to the govt for letting freedom ring for gays who want to serve the country.

I will be interested to see how the military handles it and if we see any backlash from the hardcore marines. I hear it's basically only hardcore marines who are really oppossed to this.

[Prodigal19]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

I saw that as an argument being used for it. In my opinion though, gay males never make that connection. All that I've worked with that were suspected were outcasts. Lesbians generally seem to incorporate with the males and do ok but the presumed-gay men never seem to fit in the same.

I can without a doubt tell you that this is wrong. Being gay and talking to many other gays I know that most of us realize that the biggest effect of this isn't the simple fact that gays would be able to serve in the military, it would be the impact that is has in propelling gay acceptance and equality in society as a whole.

If homosexuals already had equal rights and complete acceptance everywhere in the US except the military, I would not care nearly as much about the repeal of DADT because I do realize that there would be some adverse effects from it. When I weigh the pros and cons In the military alone, I would probably say to push the repeal back to a time when we aren't at war. However, when you throw in the major implications it has propelling the rest of gay equality, I side heavily repealing it ASAP.