Gruden? Kubiak? Really?

[Kaylore]

How about we get out of the past for a change. Bronco fans have a bad habit of reaching for the familiar, safe choice even if it's not the best. Gruden? No coach has ever won a SB with another team. That means the statistical likelihood of Gruden winning one here is next to nil.

And Kubiak? What has he done in Houston, with some of the best football players at their positions literally, that warrants him being there? You want to know who we should have had? Rick Smith. There is a guy who knows talent and how to draft.

The good Coaches, Harbaugh, Mike Smith, came from outside their respective organizations.

I realize people are sad and want "to just go back to the way things were" but the past is the past and can't be re-created. You see teams do this all the time and it never works - weather it's Bart Starr coaching the Pack, or the long list of unqualified position coaches the Raiders keep around because they used to play.

The bottom line is we can move forward and there is a man out there who can lead us back. However McDaniels isn't failing because he was "new" and not a "true Bronco." He's failing because isn't a very good head coach.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Time and time again it has been proven that first time head coaches don't fare well. They tend to be most successful on the second attempt. I want a 3-4 defensively minded guy. Adds up to Mike Nolan for me. But I'd be happy with either of the above over the Manchurian Manchild.

[Jay3]

It's not just a "familiar, safe choice." The Broncos are in turmoil right now -- they need a steady, veteran hand, preferably one that has won a Super Bowl. This is not the time to bring the next "hot" coordinator. They did that last time.

You have to alternate -- hot young coordinator who's not ready, and then washed up veteran who's lost his spark.

[baja]

I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Originally Posted by baja

I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.

Honest question: why?

[Haroldthebarrel]

Are you certain that McDaniels isnt cut to be a good HC?

The way I see it is that he can scheme better than most. And he can develop qbs.
However he is a poor GM as far as personell and draft picks is concerned.
The defense is also extremely poor. Which is his fault for hiring Wink.

I dont know, but I think going after new coaches and new systems statistically usually make for more mediocrity until the roster and talent is set.
Secondly, most great coaches has had a loosing season early. Then they got their high draft picks to build the roster.
I will go on record and give him at least another season to build upon.
I kinda think our SB hopes hinges on Tebows development, but maybe I am a bit optimistic.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein

Honest question: why?

Well at this point I don't care whether McDaniels stays another year or not.

Any head coach, be it McDaniels or otherwise is going to HAVE to address the DL, inconsistent run game and hire a better DC.

If McDaniels can do that in the offseason: Fine, just get it done. After the huge losses this season I can't see how Martindale retains his job anyway.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

A head coach that can't get along with Mike Nolan, or find a way to use a guy like Hillis. These were "problems" for Mcdaniels. I really don't think the guy is stupid... just fatally egotistical.

[loborugger]

It is clear from this post that Kaylore is a nuthugger.

Smart ass remarks asides, I agree. Same thing goes for "Cowher Power".

[Sir_Robin]

Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein

Honest question: why?

That''s easy. How often have the Broncos had back-to-back top five picks? Cha-ching!

[baja]

Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein

Honest question: why?

I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system. The O is close the D is a good draft away from respectability. This level of rebuild takes time. Sure he's made some mistakes but he also learns from them. In my opinion he's worth another year. I don't think he is the root problem with the Broncos.

Unfortunately I am beginning to believe Pat Bowlen is not thinking clearly. He has no clear chain of command. You're in trouble when your leader becomes weak. Puts us in Oakland Raider fans world.

Bottom line (like Alfonso Smith & Payton Hillis) I think firing Josh now would be giving up on a talent too early, a coach that is going to be a great coach in the NFL. IMO.

Remember Al Davis gave up on Mike Shanahan, how does that look in hindsight?

BTW I am not interested in getting into any "Your stupid for what you think - no your stupid for what you think" exchanges so I won't be posting much until that goes away.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Baja-- I get where you are coming from. Completely agree with the ownership aspect. I just think McD's flaw is a self destructive need to be right. I don't see that changing.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein

Baja-- I get where you are coming from. Completely agree with the ownership aspect. I just think McD's flaw is a self destructive need to be right. I don't see that changing.

Well, we're going to find out in the offseason.

McDaniels picked Martindale to run this defense. Given our league worst defense I can't see any justification for this guy staying on as DC. IF McDaniels can put him back in charge of the LBers and hire an established guy like Wade Phillips as DC and not feel threatened by him and trust him then it would be a big step in the right direction.

If McDaniels stubbornly sticks with him, then I don't see how we can afford another year of a mangled defense.

[Broncoman13]

Originally Posted by baja

I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system. The O is close the D is a good draft away from respectability. This level of rebuild takes time. Sure he's made some mistakes but he also learns from them. In my opinion he's worth another year. I don't think he is the root problem with the Broncos.

Unfortunately I am beginning to believe Pat Bowlen is not thinking clearly. He has no clear chain of command. You're in trouble when your leader becomes weak. Puts us in Oakland Raider fans world.

Bottom line (like Alfonso Smith & Payton Hillis) I think firing Josh now would be giving up on a talent too early, a coach that is going to be a great coach in the NFL. IMO.

Remember Al Davis gave up on Mike Shanahan, how does that look in hindsight?

BTW I am not interested in getting into any "Your stupid for what you think - no your stupid for what you think" exchanges so I won't be posting much until that goes away.

The issue is McD is paying for all moves b/c he is the one that has been made responsible for all personnel decisions. The trading of Cutler was ultimately Pat Bowlen's decision. But that decision will forever hinge on the fact that McD was the new coach, tried to trade for Cassel, and then couldn't get Cutler to buy into the new idealogy of team first. Again, it was Pat's decision ultimately, but the fans still see it as a McD problem. Same goes for the decision to trade Hillis, Smith, Marshall, Scheffler. The draft trades. The needing defense and hardly addressing the front 7. There are several issues that McD is being held accountable for by the fans. All of those issues are real, but the fact that Pat Bowlen put McD in that situation is more of a concern to me.

The OM is full of smart and engaged fans. They understand, for the most part, that McD is struggling b/c he has too many hats. But the general fan base doesn't have the same level of separation. They see the issues and it's all attributed to McD. They also believe that you can cut your losses with McD, hire a Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and get instant results...THIS YEAR and Next. It's like, you bring in Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and the players will all of the sudden grasp a new system, implement it, produce with it, and be immediately more successful. Some on the Mane realize that it doesn't work that way.

The Broncos will make a move and it will happen sooner rather than later as a result of the reduced numbers in Invesco. The fact that they wouldn't even announce the attendance is damning enough. I've never heard of that happening in Denver...never. But when that move does happen, you better be prepared for more of the same. Pat Bowlen prefers to let the coach have all of the decision making authority. For Pat Bowlen, everything runs through the coach. He'll continue to have a "money man" like Xanders is now. But that "GM" will not have a say in day to day football operations or personnel other than yeah it can fit within our cap or no we can't fit that salary in. I've heard a few names brought up in passing and we will not be getting a Jon Gruden or Bill Cowher if we do in fact dump McD. We won't be going to the college ranks and offering Harbaugh $5m per year. I think the only real hope at a GM/Consultant type is John Elway... and that brings question marks of it's own.

IMO, what we really need is a change in the Owner's philosophy of how a team should be and will be run. We all expected and hoped this would come, even with Shanny still here. Most would have told you that Shanny's biggest failures were in personnel. No way was he going to take that hat off and eventually Ellis was able to talk Bowlen into making the move. We all hoped that with that move would come separation between team and front office with the HC being the buffer. The more things change though, the more they've stayed the same... and now McD is making personnel decisions that are at best, not much better than Shanny's.

[TonyR]

People get a little to caught up in the coach and don't think enough about talent acquisition and team management. No coach is going to win without players. Shanahan did nothing without Elway and the talent around him. Walsh did nothing without Montana and the talent around him. Dungy with Manning. Belichick with Brady. Etc. You have to have talent first and foremost. Bowlen and Ellis brought in two inexeperienced 30-somethings and gave them the responsibility to build a football team. Ridiculous, particularly in hindsight. We need to get a GM in here first and foremost well before we start talking about a coach. No coach is going to fix this mess.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by Broncoman13

They also believe that you can cut your losses with McD, hire a Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and get instant results...THIS YEAR and Next. It's like, you bring in Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and the players will all of the sudden grasp a new system, implement it, produce with it, and be immediately more successful. Some on the Mane realize that it doesn't work that way.

Good post, you beat me to it. Pretty much my thinking. We need a lot more than a coach. People like to blame the coach and the QB. It's easier that way. But it's flawed thinking and not reality.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by Broncoman13

IMO, what we really need is a change in the Owner's philosophy of how a team should be and will be run. We all expected and hoped this would come, even with Shanny still here. Most would have told you that Shanny's biggest failures were in personnel. No way was he going to take that hat off and eventually Ellis was able to talk Bowlen into making the move. We all hoped that with that move would come separation between team and front office with the HC being the buffer. The more things change though, the more they've stayed the same... and now McD is making personnel decisions that are at best, not much better than Shanny's.

Bears repeating. This problem starts with Bowlen and Ellis, not McDaniels. McDaniels is a merely a symptom of the larger problem.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by baja

I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system. The O is close the D is a good draft away from respectability. This level of rebuild takes time. Sure he's made some mistakes but he also learns from them. In my opinion he's worth another year. I don't think he is the root problem with the Broncos.

Unfortunately I am beginning to believe Pat Bowlen is not thinking clearly. He has no clear chain of command. You're in trouble when your leader becomes weak. Puts us in Oakland Raider fans world.

Bottom line (like Alfonso Smith & Payton Hillis) I think firing Josh now would be giving up on a talent too early, a coach that is going to be a great coach in the NFL. IMO.

Remember Al Davis gave up on Mike Shanahan, how does that look in hindsight?

BTW I am not interested in getting into any "Your stupid for what you think - no your stupid for what you think" exchanges so I won't be posting much until that goes away.

I simply don't agree with that Baja.

On offense we're three deep at QB, four deep at WR, three deep at TEs all with guys McDaniels wanted.

In two offseasons and 10 picks in the first three rounds the best McDaniels could come up with was Robert Ayers and a bunch of castoffs like Jarvis Green, Vickerson, Williams, LeKevin Smith?

McDaniels actively targetted guys like A Smith, Quinn, Tebow etc. He either didn't want to do that for the weakest unit in the team in the DL or grossly exaggerated players he brought in for the DL.

No, Josh has had more high picks in the last two years than some franchises get in 3/4 years and we've got absolutely nothing to show for it when it comes to the DL.

That doesn't just happen accidently. It was a systematic failure from the FO/Josh and now they're paying for it with their jobs on the line.

It was no different for Shanahan.

[zdoor]

Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein

Baja-- I get where you are coming from. Completely agree with the ownership aspect. I just think McD's flaw is a self destructive need to be right. I don't see that changing.

I think his inexperience has been his undoing. When you are in charge and you tear a team down to rebuild it, trade away talent (regardless of whether anyone thinks we are better off without it) and then look to be going in the wrong direction (W/L), you are going to take the blame... He should have had a strong GM put in place above him and I think much of this debacle could have been avoided. If it was McDaniels arrogance that created the structure, then he is culpable, but I doubt that is solely on him. I think Bowlen went to what he knew and didn't put enough consideration into the fact that McDaniels is 33 and inexperienced in many facets... Don't know it can be salvaged now...

[Br0nc0Buster]

Originally Posted by Dr. Broncenstein

Time and time again it has been proven that first time head coaches don't fare well. They tend to be most successful on the second attempt. I want a 3-4 defensively minded guy. Adds up to Mike Nolan for me. But I'd be happy with either of the above over the Manchurian Manchild.

no it hasnt
some of the best teams in the league are run by first time head coaches:
Greenbay, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NYJ just to name a few

in fact the opposite is true
it is becoming more popular to hire new up and comers than retreads

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by Br0nc0Buster

no it hasnt
some of the best teams in the league are run by first time head coaches:
Greenbay, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NYJ just to name a few

in fact the opposite is true
it is becoming more popular to hire new up and comers than retreads

Yup, with the big difference being that every one of those organizations you listed has experienced people running the football organization.
Green Bay - Ted Thompson
Atlana - Thomas Dimitroff
Pittsburgh - Kevin Colbert and the Rooneys
Baltimore - Ozzie Newsome
NY Jets - Mike Tannebaum

[Smiling Assassin27]

The problem is that we can't afford to have another guy learn how to coach on our dime. Smith and Harbaugh are not difference makers, IMO. The talent that those teams have compiled is first rate and coaching those guys is a hell of a lot easier than coaching the marginal talent in Denver. The NFL is a talent driven league, not a coach-driven league. The one caveat is when a coach utterly loses his team, which seems to be the position Denver finds itself in.

There are guys out there who are proven. Get one. The key now is to trend upward and there are certain guys who will take us in that direction, even if they won't get us a ring. Getting a ring may require a different guy altogether, but getting to a point where we are a playoff team has to come first.

[strafen]

Originally Posted by baja

I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.

This!!!!!!!!
He deserves it. He earned the right to coach the Denver Broncos next year.
I think a 1 and 15 record will get him another year as well...

[strafen]

Originally Posted by TonyR

Bears repeating. This problem starts with Bowlen and Ellis, not McDaniels. McDaniels is a merely a symptom of the larger problem.

That utterly BS!!!!!

Bowlen, sell the team, and fire Ellis. Make sure Mcdaniels stays put!

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by Br0nc0Buster

no it hasnt
some of the best teams in the league are run by first time head coaches:
Greenbay, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NYJ just to name a few

in fact the opposite is true
it is becoming more popular to hire new up and comers than retreads

Exactly. We need new, fresh ideas. I think we can put a nail in the Belichick coaching tree too. He's very good at making sure no one knows everything so that at the end of the day his coaches can't do what he does.