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View Poll Results: Should We Re-Sign Champ ?
Yes and keep the 3-4 16 36.36%
Yes and change to the 4-3 3 6.82%
No and keep the 3-4 23 52.27%
No and change to the 4-3 2 4.55%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-28-2010, 07:01 PM   #1
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Default The Defense's future, 2011 building a respectable defense will form a dominant team.

The first question presented to you is should we Re-Sign Champ Bailey?

Second question is should we stick with the 3-4 defense or switch to a 4-3 where it is much easier to find respectable defensive coaches to teach it?

Now you must decide who is a starter and who needs to be upgraded. Feel free to even include player names from the draft..

Here is what I think fits our roster: If we bring in a 4-3 d-coord

DE - Elvis Dumervil and Robert Ayers (our freeney and mathis of a different flavor ayers is more of a power end than both) Jason Hunter for a breather and also draft a speed rusher late
DT - Would love to draft someone for this spot rounds 1-2, and from the roster I would guess Kevin Vickerson and JB can compete for the other DT spot.
L0LB - open maybe Mays can earn it but I would draft a guy here rounds 3-5 or bring in a FA for competition
MLB - DJ Williams or Draft if DJ plays weak side maybe Mays here if DJ plays weakside
ROLB - open but give Wesley Woodyard a crack at the weak side if DJ doesn't play it, could also draft here too
CB - Champ and Cox, I think Cox will be starting next year no matter what hopefully Thompson develops into the nickel if not we can slide Goodman there if Thompson does develop we cut Goodman hes become injury prone it seems, also we keep Vaughn for special teams and depth, I would like to draft a guy between rounds 1-2 at this position if we lose Champ.
FS - Darcel McBath/R. Hill competition Give McBath a chance to start I think hes shown when hes healthy he can play, also Hill is not a bad safety.
SS - open - I would like to draft a speedy hard hitting ball hawking safety somewhere between rounds 2-5 sadly I think Brian Dawkins might be hitting the wall and he knows it.


If we go with a 3-4 d-coord or stick with wink all the secondary stuff remains
DE - open - draft someone rounds 1-4
NT - J Williams draft someone rounds 1-3 to groom behind him
DE - bannan/vickerson competition
ILB - DJ Williams
ILB - Joe Mays (draft some competition late)
OLB spots - Dumervil and Ayers (our version of harrison and woodley) Jason Hunter to come in on pass rushing downs and maybe draft a change of pace speed rusher late

personally I say the 3-4 route would be the best bet since the current team has played it for 2 years but 4-3 wouldn't be a bad choice should we get a good defensive coach and I think we should re-sign Champ and have him retire as a Bronco.


Potential first round targets at where we might pick:
MARCELL DAREUS, DT, ALABAMA
PATRICK PETERSON, CB, L.S.U.
NICK FAIRLEY, DL, AUBURN
ALLEN BAILEY, DL, MIAMI

Last edited by KevinJames; 11-28-2010 at 07:06 PM..
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:38 PM   #2
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I don't want to re-sign champ to a huge contract; that is, I don't want to pay premium money to watch him decline further. Ultimately, the decision to re-sign Champ should hinge on how much money he wants and how willing he is to switch to safety should his 1 on 1 cover skills continue to decline.

I also think we should keep the 3-4. The worst thing we can do is switch BACK. The reality is that the Denver organization needs to stick with 1 scheme for a number of years and get solid players to fit that scheme. This can take years. As an organization, we clearly see what happens when you keep changing the damn defensive coordinator: medocrity, at best. This is Martindale's first year. Let's see what he can do next year. This is McDaniel's second year as a head coach. Let's see what he can do next year. The reality is that we all want to win, but constant change is not the answer.

The biggest problem we are having is talent evaluation (AGAIN). For the most part, I'm OK with all the trades and wheeling and dealing and on paper I think we have won that game. However, the actual selection of talent through the draft has not had an immediate impact. The 2009 draft was... I think, disastrous. Hopefully our 2010 picks will really pick it up next year, fit the scheme, and thrive.

The second biggest problem we are having is coaching. It's hard to really know without being in the locker room, but I'm not seeing the steady improvement I was hoping to see.
Defense. Special teams. Offense. Does this mean we need a new headcoach... maybe. Perhaps the players aren't paying attention or executing the plan (see Raiders game). I am more inclined to believe that some of the players are just coasting.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:49 PM   #3
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I'm not sold on Ayers being a premier pass rusher ala "Freeny and Mathis."

I think our team has been pretty good (except for the pass rush). We should learn our lesson that we can never have enough pass rushers. The run D starts strong, then falters when the passing game opens up too wide.

Get me a speedy RB (true home run threat) and a premier pass rusher and I will be really happy. Obviously we need help all over, but those are two spots I think would make the whole team better.
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:03 PM   #4
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Resign Champ, we cant afford to let talent walk away...

Stick with the 3-4, it's the way to defend the pass happy NFL.

Draft better, get a real GM, Someone yesterday mentioned a guy that's been with B-more for years working his way up to director of scouting. Sounds like he's our guy.
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:29 PM   #5
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Stick with the 3-4, we can not afford to swap scheme again, we just can not. We need a new DC, who knows how to set up a defense and preferably someone who has experience.

Champ should not be resigned, right now this team is not good enough to pay an aging cornerback that much money. He gets his shot at playoff glory before he retires somewhere else and enters the hall as a Bronco - hopefully signed to a 1 day contract before he retires.

At OLB Jason Hunter and Haggan are capable backups, Ayers and Dumervil are solid starters. Inside Woodyard, Mays and DJ provide solid depth if a starter is added in the draft or free agency - we need a complete player who can cover and play the run.

DL needs to be addressed like it should have been since 2006, add big guys up front, either 1 in FA and 1 round 1 of draft or 2 in top 2 rounds of draft. We have rotational guys who are good enough if they are not going to be featured and if they play next to talent.

CB without Champ will be Cox and Goodman starting with Thompson at nickel, we would need to add a player for depth.

Hill is will be better if he is played in a scheme that is not contrived by an idiot, for some reason he is consistently asked to play nearly 30 years behind the line which makes him a nonfactor. Mcbath may be ready to start but his injuries are a big concern. We will regardlessly need to add a player if Dawkins leaves, but this can be more of a flyer since ultimately Mcbath and Hill should start.
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
Stick with the 3-4, we can not afford to swap scheme again, we just can not. We need a new DC, who knows how to set up a defense and preferably someone who has experience.

Champ should not be resigned, right now this team is not good enough to pay an aging cornerback that much money. He gets his shot at playoff glory before he retires somewhere else and enters the hall as a Bronco - hopefully signed to a 1 day contract before he retires.

At OLB Jason Hunter and Haggan are capable backups, Ayers and Dumervil are solid starters. Inside Woodyard, Mays and DJ provide solid depth if a starter is added in the draft or free agency - we need a complete player who can cover and play the run.

DL needs to be addressed like it should have been since 2006, add big guys up front, either 1 in FA and 1 round 1 of draft or 2 in top 2 rounds of draft. We have rotational guys who are good enough if they are not going to be featured and if they play next to talent.

CB without Champ will be Cox and Goodman starting with Thompson at nickel, we would need to add a player for depth.

Hill is will be better if he is played in a scheme that is not contrived by an idiot, for some reason he is consistently asked to play nearly 30 years behind the line which makes him a nonfactor. Mcbath may be ready to start but his injuries are a big concern. We will regardlessly need to add a player if Dawkins leaves, but this can be more of a flyer since ultimately Mcbath and Hill should start.
I agree. 100%
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:14 PM   #7
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The defense is a large part of the problem.

If the Cards give up less than 31 points tomorrow the broncos lead the league in points given up per game (29.4).

There was only one team in the NFL that averages more points a game than the broncos give up, the NE Pats (31.7).
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
Stick with the 3-4, we can not afford to swap scheme again, we just can not. We need a new DC, who knows how to set up a defense and preferably someone who has experience.

Champ should not be resigned, right now this team is not good enough to pay an aging cornerback that much money. He gets his shot at playoff glory before he retires somewhere else and enters the hall as a Bronco - hopefully signed to a 1 day contract before he retires.

At OLB Jason Hunter and Haggan are capable backups, Ayers and Dumervil are solid starters. Inside Woodyard, Mays and DJ provide solid depth if a starter is added in the draft or free agency - we need a complete player who can cover and play the run.

DL needs to be addressed like it should have been since 2006, add big guys up front, either 1 in FA and 1 round 1 of draft or 2 in top 2 rounds of draft. We have rotational guys who are good enough if they are not going to be featured and if they play next to talent.

CB without Champ will be Cox and Goodman starting with Thompson at nickel, we would need to add a player for depth.

Hill is will be better if he is played in a scheme that is not contrived by an idiot, for some reason he is consistently asked to play nearly 30 years behind the line which makes him a nonfactor. Mcbath may be ready to start but his injuries are a big concern. We will regardlessly need to add a player if Dawkins leaves, but this can be more of a flyer since ultimately Mcbath and Hill should start.
I agree with most of this, but our Safety spot absolutely needs to be addressed by something other than a late round flyer or over-the-hill FA. That has been our most glaring weakness, outside of DL, for the past decade on defense.

We need a hard hitting Safety with the range to cover a TE or WR if need be. It would also be nice to have one that understands and takes good angles. None of our current safeties fit that description outside of maybe McBath, but he's hurt to much to be depended on at this point.

Look at pitt's and baltimore's defenses with and without their elite safeties and you'll see how much of a difference they make.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:00 PM   #9
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Change D coordinator every year.

Recipe for success.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:31 PM   #10
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I don't see them getting rid of McDaniels - if they wanted too, they would have done it this week for cause. I don't see McDaniels getting rid of Wink.

What do we need? In order, NT, DE, S, CB, ILB. In any given draft, there really is only a single NT usually. There are two or three DEs, and four safeties and corners. ILB is a bit weirder because of 4-3 versus 3-4 thing.

I also think you need to pick up one more o-lineman in the draft. Anyone have a list of which draft picks we have this year?
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:39 PM   #11
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What we really need that would improve our defense ten fold is an intimidating vocal leading MLB!! Ever since Al Wilson (who was our vocal leader and enforcer in the middle) our defense has been awful. If we grab a big time game changing MLB in the first round that takes pride in clogging the run. It will allow DJ to make plays and room around like he did his rookie year when he wasn't counted on as the main guy. That and a BIG NT and a DE then we would be ok.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:43 PM   #12
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Overall needs according to me:

Receiving TE

A new RT (Harris is probably gone)

Two new safeties (Dawkins and Hill are old and done, Mcbath is too injury prone to count on)

Another CB (Champ is probably gone, can't see him resigning with us when he can go play for a contender)

Another ILB

Two 3-4 DE and a NT (all the players we have on the line are either old or just average)

Basically we are ****ed for the near future. It's going to take at least 2-3 drafts to fill most of these holes, and it's not like the players we draft are going to come in a produce right away. (especially dlineman)
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Old 11-28-2010, 11:14 PM   #13
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Quagmire.

I'm not sure that I agree that we need to stick to a 3-4. It's not like we're so entrenched in that direction that we have no choices here. The best players that we have would play just as well in a 4-3, if not better than they play in a 3-4.

I don't know which direction would be the best way to go between the two. I would prefer we hire a competent defensive coordinator and let that person decide without being hamstrung. It's not like we're enjoying so much success with the 3-4 that there's no turning back now.

I'd put money on the idea that Wade Phillips could come in next year and get better results with a 4-3 than we're getting out of the current 3-4 using the same base of players.

Also, I would resign Champ to whatever it takes to resign him. Champ is worth every penny for what he does to the field. He may not be the young DB that he used to be, but he's every bit the classy veteran who sets a tone in your locker room in both good times and bad and performs to a high level using both skill and wit. The idea that we'd let Champ get away is an awful notion. Fire whoever lets that happen.
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Old 11-28-2010, 11:25 PM   #14
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Quagmire.

I'm not sure that I agree that we need to stick to a 3-4. It's not like we're so entrenched in that direction that we have no choices here. The best players that we have would play just as well in a 4-3, if not better than they play in a 3-4.

I don't know which direction would be the best way to go between the two. I would prefer we hire a competent defensive coordinator and let that person decide without being hamstrung. It's not like we're enjoying so much success with the 3-4 that there's no turning back now.

I'd put money on the idea that Wade Phillips could come in next year and get better results with a 4-3 than we're getting out of the current 3-4 using the same base of players.

Also, I would resign Champ to whatever it takes to resign him. Champ is worth every penny for what he does to the field. He may not be the young DB that he used to be, but he's every bit the classy veteran who sets a tone in your locker room in both good times and bad and performs to a high level using both skill and wit. The idea that we'd let Champ get away is an awful notion. Fire whoever lets that happen.
Soooooooooooooooooo.... would you prefer a coupon for Pizza Hut or 6 pack?

I just bought and it's a delicious seasonal ale that packs a punch.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:47 AM   #15
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Definitely want the sixer. I am a big fan of regional beers.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:53 AM   #16
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DJ fits a 4-3 better but I sort of hate that player anyways. He's easy to block IMO. Get a hat on him and he's done for that Sunday.

Doom could play DE in a Freeny type role in a 4-3 actually better then he is in a 3-4. He stinks sort of in coverage.

I like the style of defense that uses 2 big DT and 2 quick DE, backed up by to mauling OLB no one wants to be tackled by. Easier said then done though.

But if the only impact young dlineman in draft fit 4-3 I would think about scrapping the 3-4.

can that Dareus cat from Bama? is that his school play NT.

I'd love to see Broncos just focus all on the front 7. Even though we need safety and ILB just fill those spots with journyman for now.

Target the best front 7 defender in draft, the best front 7 defender on dline. rank them, then set out to get as many of them as you can be it FA or draft.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:03 AM   #17
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Quagmire.

I'm not sure that I agree that we need to stick to a 3-4. It's not like we're so entrenched in that direction that we have no choices here. The best players that we have would play just as well in a 4-3, if not better than they play in a 3-4.

I don't know which direction would be the best way to go between the two. I would prefer we hire a competent defensive coordinator and let that person decide without being hamstrung. It's not like we're enjoying so much success with the 3-4 that there's no turning back now.

I'd put money on the idea that Wade Phillips could come in next year and get better results with a 4-3 than we're getting out of the current 3-4 using the same base of players.

Also, I would resign Champ to whatever it takes to resign him. Champ is worth every penny for what he does to the field. He may not be the young DB that he used to be, but he's every bit the classy veteran who sets a tone in your locker room in both good times and bad and performs to a high level using both skill and wit. The idea that we'd let Champ get away is an awful notion. Fire whoever lets that happen.
Phillips runs sort of a hybrid 3-4 right? Did he run a 4-3 in denver then switch to a 3-4 in SD and Dallas? He's just super creative with his front 7 IMO. I would be so happy to see him come coach the defense but I doubt it happens.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:47 AM   #18
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I think we have very little talent on this defense. Bailey is one of the few solid players we have, albeit not what he used to be, but I don't think we want to let him go. Finding a replacement won't be that easy.

Doom was far more effective as an OLB than as a DE. Ayers wasn't drafted to play DE. Getting him to convert now would be like the Jarvis Moss mess in reverse.

The last time I saw this team try to play a 4-3, they were burned for about 59 points. I do not think we have anything close to the personnel for it. We probably have less quality depth on the defensive line than anywhere else.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Quagmire.

I'm not sure that I agree that we need to stick to a 3-4. It's not like we're so entrenched in that direction that we have no choices here. The best players that we have would play just as well in a 4-3, if not better than they play in a 3-4.

I don't know which direction would be the best way to go between the two. I would prefer we hire a competent defensive coordinator and let that person decide without being hamstrung. It's not like we're enjoying so much success with the 3-4 that there's no turning back now.

I'd put money on the idea that Wade Phillips could come in next year and get better results with a 4-3 than we're getting out of the current 3-4 using the same base of players.

Also, I would resign Champ to whatever it takes to resign him. Champ is worth every penny for what he does to the field. He may not be the young DB that he used to be, but he's every bit the classy veteran who sets a tone in your locker room in both good times and bad and performs to a high level using both skill and wit. The idea that we'd let Champ get away is an awful notion. Fire whoever lets that happen.
Compare how the offense and defense has fared in the last 5 years. The defense have been perennial bottom feeders aside from a short period of respectability under Nolan, meanwhile the offense has pumped out pretty decent numbers for a non-playoff team.

On offense we have had 2 systems, and both have been implemented with players best suited for those systems.

On defense we have had 5 systems in 5 years and as a result we have very few players who carry over. We can not in any shape or form afford to switch to a new system again, especially not something as huge as going from 3-4 to 4-3. If we do that we end up right back where we were when we fired Coyer and if you want another 5 years of having the worst defense we have ever had then I just don't know how sane you really are.

As we have seen, spending a lot of money on your secondary is not a solution. Shanahan tried it and ended up with the worst defense the team has ever had and got fired for it, Mcdaniels has tried it and may just end up with an even worse defense than Shanahan had and if he gets fired it will definitely be due to the defense. You have to start building from the front, you can't pay 10 million or more a year to a DB if you have no pass rush, we need to spend all the resources we have on the defensive front.

Let me ask you this, who are the starting CBs for Pittsburgh? If you couldn't answer that without looking it up, that tells you how important the CB position is when you have a great offensive front. Build the offensive front, draft and sign if necesary linebackers and linemen.

As for safety, Hill was decent last year, this year he has been asked to play so far back and keep position that he is entirely irrelevant, I believe that a defensive coordinator who doesn't ask his free safety to play punt returner on every play could help Hill find his previous level of play. Mcbath was a 2nd round pick and we have to trust that one of the 3 2nd round picks from 2009 worked out, at least until it has been proven otherwise. Behind those 2, we have little depth and we will need to add a player or two, but I believe those 2 should be allowed to start in 2011 - if for no other reason than to avoid having to spend resources on the defense that do not benefit the front 7.

As for defensive coordinators, I do believe we need one who can work autonomously from Mcdaniels, we can afford having a yes-man at DC, we saw how much Nolan was able to improve the defense and how quickly yes-man Martindal was able to undo every single improvement. If need be, the DC should report directly to Ellis/Xanders.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:11 AM   #20
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I definitely prefer the 3/4, not only for the nostalgic quality of it here in Denver, but because it offers the widest range of options in a pass-happy league. Champ shouldn't go anywhere, at least not until we bring in some much better linemen. I'm not so hung up on positions. NT is obviously the most crucial, but if you bring in a killer DE (which there are few in this draft) you improve the NT play, even keeping what you have (maybe picking up a vet) by shifting the tendency to double team off the NT. The Broncos are definitely in the "best player available" position right now as far as the team goes and shouldn't try to fill a shopping list. But D Line is the glaring weakness, and has been for a very long time. That's where the top draft pick, and focus, should be. I think the Broncos offense knows that no matter how well they play, the defense is going to give up more scores than they can put up on the board. Nothing more disheartening than that.

To me, the most crucial move is to change the set up of the operation. I would much prefer that Bowlen clear out the FO and bring in a guy like Eric DeCosta (Ravens), for example, to set up a new operation. Then, build a wall of separation between the coaching staff and the FO - as it should be. If McD can't accept that, then DeCosta can begin the coaching search. The FO should run the scouting, trade and draft operations. The HC can have input, but not decision power. The GM builds the team, the HC coaches the team.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:14 AM   #21
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we saw how much Nolan was able to improve the defense and how quickly yes-man Martindal was able to undo every single improvement.
Is that what we saw?

I saw a group that was successful early on via the same "smoke and mirrors" methods guys like Coyer were great at for the first two months or so. Then, once ample film is available, they get exposed and start sucking bad. This year's defense is simply a continuation of what Nolan left us with at the end of last year, minus a few starters because of injuries.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:19 AM   #22
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I think we should just pose these kinds of questions to McDaniels at the end of the season. Ask him what he would do with each player, scheme, and coach. Then we can fire him and do the exact opposite... We will be in the SB in no time.

I would keep Champ though. The scheme doesn't matter to me. The scheme that we run should be whatever the next coach and GM thinks will win.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:20 AM   #23
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Our defense is old with average at best players in most spots.
What does that mean? Its going to be awhile before the Broncos get back to being contenders until they put some youth in those spots.
The entire DL basically needs better players, LB's are okay depending on progress and the secondary scares me. If we don't resign Champ, we'll be trotting out an aging Andre Goodman and 2nd year man Cox with who exactly in the nickle, Squid? Nate Jones?
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:27 AM   #24
missingnumber7
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I say we stay with the 3-4 for the simple reason that all the personnel moves that have been made with the front 7 are for the 3-4. Now yes there is a lot of garbage in that mess, but there are some keepers. Mays and Woodyard are the future of the ILBs, DJ is on his way out, IMHO . I think that with Ayers, Haggan and Doom you have depth at OLB. We need some solid DL help, but with a solid Nose in a 3-4 your ILB's should look like studs. Our secondary needs help that is nothing new, but Hill has been a brighter spot, Cox has potential, and Goodman is better than some. Champ needs to stay for the time being. We need a new SS. Dawk is outdated and i think he doesn't really know how to play with all the new penalties and fines that are out there.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
Is that what we saw?

I saw a group that was successful early on via the same "smoke and mirrors" methods guys like Coyer were great at for the first two months or so. Then, once ample film is available, they get exposed and start sucking bad. This year's defense is simply a continuation of what Nolan left us with at the end of last year, minus a few starters because of injuries.
You don't consider a defense that is top 10 in yards against and 12th in points against better than what we have done this year or under Slowick and Bates? Damn you are hard to please.

During 2009 the defense allowed 1 300 yard passing performance, just 1, It was Donovan Mcnabb and he made it to 322 - through 11 games so far we have allowed 3 300 yard passing performances.

In 2009 we allowed 4 100 yard rushers, in 2010 we have allowed 4 100 yard rushers.

We gave up 30 points or more 3 times in 2009, 4 times so far in 2010.

We are already worse this year than we were all of last year. In the last 6 games of last season we held the Giants to 6 points, Chiefs to 13 points in Kansas in December, aside from 3 1st quarter drives we dominated Peyton Manning in Indianapolis something we have never done before. We ended the season in spectacular fashion being completely owen by Philly and Jamaal Charles respectively, but if you think we had anything but a significantly improved defense in 2009 you are wrong.
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