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Old 11-01-2010, 01:54 PM   #1
bronclvr
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Default Players or Coaches?

I've been reading all of the meltdown here today, and this question popped into my mind: is our problem the Players or the Coaches?

If you believe it's the Coaches, it already appears that most here would like Brian Shottenheimer to take over-do you agree with that take? Is there someone other than Shottenheimer you would rather see here?

If you believe it's the Players (let's leave Orton out of this, I think the majority will agree he's doing his best), let me put a twist to it-if you could pick, say, four past Players (from the Broncos), who would you pick that would get us back on track and above .500 for the remainder of the Year(except Elway!). I realize we would like Doom and Ayers, and you can pick from our present Roster if you'd rather-

Really, this is all fodder, but seeing as we are going into the bye week, I would like to hear everyone's opinions and why-so, in your opinion, who is to blame, and who can fix it?

Last edited by bronclvr; 11-01-2010 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:05 PM   #2
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I think there is plenty of blame to go around. It sure feels to me like... outside of the Raiders game, little mental errors have killed us all season.

Then it comes down to... do you believe the coach is not coaching a player to snap a football properly? Do you believe a coach didn't tell Goodman that he had no help over the top? Did the coach tell Moren to "chop block" a guy, allegedly?

We've certainly seen some coaching errors. I suspect McDaniels may be very much like our last coach in that he's got a quick trigger-finger. I think he expects guys to be pros and may not deal with it very well when they're not. We've also made some personnel moves that are obviously questionable.

Overall, I think it's got to be a mixture of both. The finger is ultimately going to point at the staff, though... so they'd better figure it out.
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:09 PM   #3
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I think it's too much inexperience in the coaching, GM and coordinator positions. I also think the injuries to our best players have made things worse. So "all of the above."
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:25 PM   #4
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I'd definitely put the blame on the players and the injury factor definitely plays a role. If you're injured, you're not in the game and the team has to make do with somebody (usually of lesser talent) else in their place.

With that said, execution is the only thing that matters and Denver has been in complete disarray in that regard. Players that aren't executing are being yanked out of the lineup while the coaching staff has to scramble to find guys who are producing.

Perrish Cox was giving Denver an 18.3 YPR on kickoffs. Denver switches to Thomas and he's producing at a 25.6 rate. It's not an "ideal" solution but Thomas has no doubt been effective in that role.

Buckhalter's struggles (2.2 YPC, 6.6 YPR) have forced Denver to lean more heavily on Moreno in both aspects of the running game and screen passing game.

The struggles of Richard Quinn have forced Dan Gronkowski to step into that role and neither he nor Daniel Graham have stepped in as a proven receiving threat (7.0 YPR for Gronkowski, 7.8 for Graham).
If Denver can find players who consistently do their roles effectively (see Thomas as the kick returner, Brandon Lloyd as the deep downfield threat) than the Broncos can turn their struggles around and start winning games.

The problem right now is that the coaches can only do so much. They can only call so many plays and formations and say things so many times before the players have to take it onto themselves to properly execute what the coaches are relaying in.

You can have the greatest coach in the world (see Cleveland with Belichick) and it doesn't matter unless those players execute what is asked of him. Belichick was 20-28 in his first three years with Cleveland. Then he has almost a full season with Vinny Testaverde, a guy who did what Belichick wanted, and they went 11-5 including winning a playoff game.

Then he lands in New England and was 5-13 with Drew Bledsoe at QB (who didn't play to what Belichick wanted). Brady comes in and the rest is history for Belichick in terms of his success.

As for the "pick 4 guys who'd get the Broncos above .500" talk... who cares? If the players on the field can't do it, then Josh and GM Brian Xanders need to find players who will fill their roles, do what is asked of them game to game, and accept that the success of the team will eventually validate their individual success.

Last edited by DawnBTVS; 11-01-2010 at 02:28 PM.. Reason: Added 4 players bit
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:42 PM   #5
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I say the Broncos need to stay the "Plan" and not jump ship. One of these games the youth will "get it" and those that follow will quickly pick it up. McD gutted this team for a reason and it will take time to get players and coaches together. I like many of the new players McD and X have brought in and also I like that many of the players were let go.

I'm on the outside looking in and consider that a handicap and accept my ignorance of the day to day operations with faith that this team will one day (hopefully soon) turn the corner. Having the proper number of players on the field will be a giant step in the right direction.
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:56 PM   #6
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In order of importance I would say:

1. Positional and assistant coaching. I think the offensive line struggles are related to coaching, the whole defense seems to be suffering under the new scheme and the run game has no authority at all.

2. Injuries. Clady, Harris, Bailey, Ayers, Dumervil, Goodman, Dawkins, Moreno and Royal have all been injured, if you had to make a list of the 10 best players on the team right now, how many of those guys make it? 7? We have been hit hard and it has cost us.

3. Lack of talent. I think not counting injuries the team is more talented this year than it was last year, however we are lacking talent at key positions such as DL and LB and our depth on many positions has been exposed as being woeful.

Right now I would say we need a veteran coach to take over either the RB or OL duties as well as DC, the current staff is not getting it done. We desperately need to get healthy and stay healthy relatively and we need to add talent, especially to the defensive front.
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:57 PM   #7
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I say players more than coaches.

You have to beat the man in front of you. You can hate your coach til the day he dies, but if the coach puts you into the lineup that means you the player have to make plays for your own dignity.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:07 PM   #8
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I say the Broncos need to stay the "Plan" and not jump ship. One of these games the youth will "get it" and those that follow will quickly pick it up. McD gutted this team for a reason and it will take time to get players and coaches together. I like many of the new players McD and X have brought in and also I like that many of the players were let go.

I'm on the outside looking in and consider that a handicap and accept my ignorance of the day to day operations with faith that this team will one day (hopefully soon) turn the corner. Having the proper number of players on the field will be a giant step in the right direction.

Did I just read this on the Orange Mane? This a very realistic sensible take on the situation with the Broncos. Who let this guy in here?
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:33 PM   #9
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I think it's too much inexperience in the coaching, GM and coordinator positions. I also think the injuries to our best players have made things worse. So "all of the above."
I agree w/ emphasis on the coaching, good coaching can make up for a lot.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:38 PM   #10
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I say the Broncos need to stay the "Plan" and not jump ship. One of these games the youth will "get it" and those that follow will quickly pick it up. McD gutted this team for a reason and it will take time to get players and coaches together. I like many of the new players McD and X have brought in and also I like that many of the players were let go.

I'm on the outside looking in and consider that a handicap and accept my ignorance of the day to day operations with faith that this team will one day (hopefully soon) turn the corner. Having the proper number of players on the field will be a giant step in the right direction.
Excellent post.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:39 PM   #11
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Problem is, most of the players were brought in by the current regime, so you can't have one without the other
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:43 PM   #12
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It is all the coach. The coach of this team gets to pick his players. The coach of every team is supposed to prepare his players. I don't see how you can blame this on anyone other than the coach.

Also, it could be the players that screwed up a few times a season and cost a game or two. When it is happening in the majority of the games, it shows the coaches aren't preparing their players properly.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by bronclvr View Post
I've been reading all of the meltdown here today, and this question popped into my mind: is our problem the Players or the Coaches?
Clearly, when a team is this bad, it's both. There's more than enough blame to go around. Injuries, inexperience, poor coaching, poor play and just bad luck are all contributing. That said, you have to try to fix what you can, and not worry about what you can't. Not much we can do now in terms of changing personnel, and injuries are largely unavoidable, but I'd still be happier if I felt like we were getting everything possible from the current team, and I don't.

I really feel like we're less than the sum of our parts right now, even with guys out. Most weeks we've played well enough to be competitive even with an undermanned squad, but we beat ourselves with stupid mistakes; wrong number of guys on the field (consistently!), wasted timeouts because guys don't know where to line up, way too many drives killed because of procedural penalties, special teams coverage breakdowns, missed blitz pickups, etc. Admittedly, some of that also comes down to roster turnover and injuries putting guys out of position, but that's no excuse. Just my uneducated opinion, but I feel like a lot of that stuff has to fall on the position coaches and coordinators. The O-line in particular seems confused far too frequently, even with a couple of kids out there. When you don't have superior talent you need to compensate with superior execution, and we don't; we instead find ways to beat ourselves with mistakes that better teams could probably survive. We just aren't good enough to have two touchdowns called back and still hope to win most weeks, even against a bad team.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:15 PM   #14
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I'd definitely put the blame on the players and the injury factor definitely plays a role. If you're injured, you're not in the game and the team has to make do with somebody (usually of lesser talent) else in their place.

With that said, execution is the only thing that matters and Denver has been in complete disarray in that regard. Players that aren't executing are being yanked out of the lineup while the coaching staff has to scramble to find guys who are producing.

Perrish Cox was giving Denver an 18.3 YPR on kickoffs. Denver switches to Thomas and he's producing at a 25.6 rate. It's not an "ideal" solution but Thomas has no doubt been effective in that role.

Buckhalter's struggles (2.2 YPC, 6.6 YPR) have forced Denver to lean more heavily on Moreno in both aspects of the running game and screen passing game.

The struggles of Richard Quinn have forced Dan Gronkowski to step into that role and neither he nor Daniel Graham have stepped in as a proven receiving threat (7.0 YPR for Gronkowski, 7.8 for Graham).
If Denver can find players who consistently do their roles effectively (see Thomas as the kick returner, Brandon Lloyd as the deep downfield threat) than the Broncos can turn their struggles around and start winning games.

The problem right now is that the coaches can only do so much. They can only call so many plays and formations and say things so many times before the players have to take it onto themselves to properly execute what the coaches are relaying in.

You can have the greatest coach in the world (see Cleveland with Belichick) and it doesn't matter unless those players execute what is asked of him. Belichick was 20-28 in his first three years with Cleveland. Then he has almost a full season with Vinny Testaverde, a guy who did what Belichick wanted, and they went 11-5 including winning a playoff game.

Then he lands in New England and was 5-13 with Drew Bledsoe at QB (who didn't play to what Belichick wanted). Brady comes in and the rest is history for Belichick in terms of his success.

As for the "pick 4 guys who'd get the Broncos above .500" talk... who cares? If the players on the field can't do it, then Josh and GM Brian Xanders need to find players who will fill their roles, do what is asked of them game to game, and accept that the success of the team will eventually validate their individual success.
Good post.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:17 PM   #15
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The problem right now is that the coaches can only do so much. They can only call so many plays and formations and say things so many times before the players have to take it onto themselves to properly execute what the coaches are relaying in.

You can have the greatest coach in the world (see Cleveland with Belichick) and it doesn't matter unless those players execute what is asked of him. Belichick was 20-28 in his first three years with Cleveland. Then he has almost a full season with Vinny Testaverde, a guy who did what Belichick wanted, and they went 11-5 including winning a playoff game.

Then he lands in New England and was 5-13 with Drew Bledsoe at QB (who didn't play to what Belichick wanted). Brady comes in and the rest is history for Belichick in terms of his success.

As for the "pick 4 guys who'd get the Broncos above .500" talk... who cares? If the players on the field can't do it, then Josh and GM Brian Xanders need to find players who will fill their roles, do what is asked of them game to game, and accept that the success of the team will eventually validate their individual success.
really, really good post. too bad so many people are caught up mcdaniels being a poopyhead they cant see the truth. like i said last week, where is "moreno chop block" or "jarvis moss clipping" in mcdaniels playbook? i dont think its aywhere, is orton audibling to that?
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:21 PM   #16
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really, really good post. too bad so many people are caught up mcdaniels being a poopyhead they cant see the truth. like i said last week, where is "moreno chop block" or "jarvis moss clipping" in mcdaniels playbook? i dont think its aywhere, is orton audibling to that?
The argument goes that when players are doing things like this, they're not being given proper coaching to begin with.

To some extent, I can buy that.

On the other hand, I'm guessing Jarvis Moss has played football since pee-wee and never in that time-period has it been O.K.. to block a guy in the back on a punt return. (Much less a guy who was completely out of the play.)
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:21 PM   #17
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Both

Bad scheme + mediocre talent in most areas = what we're seeing now
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:26 PM   #18
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The argument goes that when players are doing things like this, they're not being given proper coaching to begin with.

To some extent, I can buy that.

On the other hand, I'm guessing Jarvis Moss has played football since pee-wee and never in that time-period has it been O.K.. to block a guy in the back on a punt return. (Much less a guy who was completely out of the play.)
10 men on the field? bad communication, could be a coaching error, could be someone not paying attention. constant penalties? needs to be fixed by coaching to get them to stop, even though some guys never will stop holding when they are beat or "giving a little something extra" etc. a block in the back or a chop block that wasnt? coaching wont stop that, thats players that are hurting their team.

coaching can only do so much.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:40 PM   #19
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10 men on the field? bad communication, could be a coaching error, could be someone not paying attention. constant penalties? needs to be fixed by coaching to get them to stop, even though some guys never will stop holding when they are beat or "giving a little something extra" etc. a block in the back or a chop block that wasnt? coaching wont stop that, thats players that are hurting their team.

coaching can only do so much.
Coaching does have to put the players in situations where they can succeed. There are definitely cases where our lack of talent is hurting the team such as Hochstein being on the field, that is a clear talent issue, Walton getting pushed back is a clear talent issue.
However putting Goodman 1 on 1 on Crabtree when Goodman can't run at anywhere near full speed is a coaching thing, you can't expect an injured to player to make that play with no help over the top.
Having run plays that develope slowly when your offensive linemen can't hold up 1 on 1 blocks consistently is a coaching thing, if your linemen are getting beaten 1 on 1, you need to compensate for that.

You can tell defenses are keying on taking away the inside on Gaffney, all of his work comes when he can cut under the CB and gain the inside, so now defenses are playing him close and bumping him to the outside since he is not a guy who runs go routes and is not a great jumper that is a safe thing to do. The coaches need to adapt to that and get Gaffney into situations where he can be effective.

I think coaching is a huge problem, because this team is playing worse and worse, and you don't lose talent over the year.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:45 PM   #20
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My personal favortie was the 12 men on the field and the Niners still converted a long third down.

At least get your money's worth and stop them!
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:01 PM   #21
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Problem is, most of the players were brought in by the current regime, so you can't have one without the other
True.
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:07 PM   #22
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I honestly believe it's the coaching staff. Our O-line went from among the very best to the bottom of the heap, our Special Teams have sucked for years, the RB situation is self evident and the defense on the whole is just average..which is actually an improvement since Shanny walked the sidelines.

I watched a Colts defense absolutely destroyed by injuries play inspired football tonight with scrubs and back-ups, and guess what? They did alright. Not great, but alright.

Great coaching inspires performance. Crappy coaching demoralizes, and that seems to be the case here in Denver.
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Old 11-02-2010, 01:45 AM   #23
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I honestly believe it's the coaching staff. Our O-line went from among the very best to the bottom of the heap, our Special Teams have sucked for years, the RB situation is self evident and the defense on the whole is just average..which is actually an improvement since Shanny walked the sidelines.

I watched a Colts defense absolutely destroyed by injuries play inspired football tonight with scrubs and back-ups, and guess what? They did alright. Not great, but alright.

Great coaching inspires performance. Crappy coaching demoralizes, and that seems to be the case here in Denver.
The players at adamant about sticking up for McDaniels, I wonder why?
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Old 11-02-2010, 05:03 AM   #24
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The players at adamant about sticking up for McDaniels, I wonder why?
Player's also supported Rod Marinelli when they were 0-16.
Mcd chose his player's and he should be accountable if they are dumb.
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:12 AM   #25
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Player's also supported Rod Marinelli when they were 0-16.
, true.
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