Why are you so hard on Kyle Orton, Woody? - The Orange Mane

Bronco Rob · 09-23-2010, 02:03 PM

Broncos have fallen off national radar

Jason from Massachusetts asks Woody how the Broncos are perceived throughout the country.
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post

Posted: 09/23/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT

I am a Broncos fan who lives near Boston. I listen to a lot of sports radio on my commute to work. This morning there was talk about the Laurence Maroney trade. The morning crew referred to the Broncos organization as a joke. They claim that Josh McDaniels likes anything that Bill Belichick ever got his hands on. They picked on Josh for wearing the hoodie, for signing Jarvis Green to guaranteed money and then cutting him, for moving up and drafting Tim Tebow and for (the Maroney) trade. They even went so far as to blast the organization for picking up Chad Jackson in 2008 at one point (although I don't believe that McDaniels was there yet). It made me sick to my stomach to listen to, as does most Patriots talk. But it got me thinking. Is this the perception of the Broncos organization across the country, and are those thoughts starting to creep into Denver? I like the direction that Josh is taking the team, but I think he just needs some time, which is often a luxury teams can't afford in the win-now NFL. What are your thoughts? — Jason, Haverhill, Mass

Jason: Doing the ESPN show "Around The Horn" every day, several other shows on ESPN and other networks regularly, and a dozen or so radio shows in various markets throughout the country every week, I think I get a sense of the national pulse. Few (almost none) of the commentators and NFL fans care about the Broncos.

Except for the signing of Tim Tebow, there's no interest in the Broncos beyond the Colorado border (and among those few scattered Broncos loyalists elsewhere). The Broncos rarely come up in the shows (or the preshow discussions). The Broncos are irrelevant. Most people who do bring up Josh McDaniels put him a class with the other failed Bill Belichick-schooled assistants.

People outside Florida laughed when McDaniels traded up to get Tebow. People scoffed when he traded away the Broncos' two most noteworthy players. But the worst thing in life is apathy, and the world is apathetic when it comes to the Broncos. They really haven't been on the national radar since the Super Bowl championships. Even the year the Broncos were in the AFC championship game again (2005), there weren't considered a threat to win the Super Bowl.

It's understandable. They're a .500 team and franchise since 2006. They don't often appear on national games. Kyle Orton is not considered much of a quarterback, and the only players really known are Champ Bailey, Brian Dawkins and Elvis Dumervil (because of his name and his sacks). You've got to win more than one division championship every 10 years. You've got to win at least an occasional playoff game to be in the discussion.

I actually had a dream recently that HBO couldn't get any team to do "Hard Knocks" next year, and the Jets said bring it on again. I know this: Josh McDaniels would never do "Hard Knocks," no matter how much attention the show brought to the Broncos. He's not that kind of guy or coach. The Broncos are not wide-open about what goes on inside the building.

Josh McDaniels will be a very good NFL head coach. It may take awhile — and will depend on the heads of the Broncos' state and their patience. I don't think owner Pat Bowlen and CEO Joe Ellis would ever act quickly to fire Josh. He'll likely get another two years, at the very minimum, especially with the presence of Tebow, and I would guess McDaniels will be here for years and ultimately will be successful.

They'll give the coach time to develop the quarterback, and they're willing to wait, unless, suddenly, all the season-ticket holders vanished, and that won't happen. People will say, well, Bowlen fired Wade Phillips after two years. Wade was holding the chair until Mike Shanahan wanted the job. (He had turned it down before it was given to Wade.)

Bowlen bought the team in 1984. He had Dan Reeves as coach through 1992. Shanahan was head coach here from 1995 to 2008. Those thinking McDaniels is going away are totally wrong. He'll be here after they are gone.

Why are you so hard on Kyle Orton, Woody? What you said in the last mailbag made you look like a lost high school kid. Orton did lead the NFL in Week 1 in completions over 20 yards. What does Orton have to do to start to win you over? — Andrew, Houston

Andrew: One of Orton's best friends recently asked me the same thing. Actually, he ordered me to. Pleasant fellow. I told him what I'll tell you. Orton needs to prove it over 16 games, not one, not two, not eight. He hasn't as a pro yet.

When he gets into a playoff game or a Pro Bowl as an NFL quarterback, then we'll talk. Let's see what he does in this four-game stretch before you and his friends declare Orton the No. 1 quarterback in the league. I wish I were a lost high school kid again. But I will never wish I lived in Houston.

As analysts try to evaluate the Broncos' 2009 draft class, I continue to see Knowshon Moreno lauded as a good pick. He's a starting back who last season rushed for fewer than 1,000 yards — and even more shameful, under 4 yards a carry. He's too slow to break long runs and too weak to run through linebackers or safeties. Can you tell me the last great back to carry for less than 4 yards through a season? Am I the only one that feels this way about Moreno? — Chris, Raleigh, N.C.

Chris: You are not alone in the wilderness. A lot of people who aren't in North Carolina agree with you. Knowshon continues to be a tentative runner who waits for a hole to open rather than getting into and through the hole. He hasn't had a long run yet (as a running back). He did have a 45-yard pass play on Sunday against the Seahawks. Oddly, enough, he just ran after catching the screen; he didn't stand around and think about running.

I charted every run Knowshon had last year, and, based on that, I'll tell you something you already knew with no research. A vast majority of his carries were for 0, 1 or 2 yards. I called him NoShow Moreno, NoGain Moreno. He has been hurt again but still hasn't shown a burst a speed, can't turn the corner and can't find the hole soon enough.

He won't be a bust, but he won't be a Pro Bowl back, which might, after all, make him a bust, since he was the No. 1 running back taken in the 2009 draft. However, frankly speaking, at the end of the day (as my former ESPN partner on "Dream Job," Stephen A. Smith would say), Moreno still has a chance.

Emmitt Smith, you may have heard of. He has the NFL record for all-time rushing yardage. In his rookie season, 1990, Emmitt rushed for 937 yards and had a 3.9-yard-per-carry average. He picked it up dramatically his second season. Moreno must, too.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16148413

Dagmar · 09-23-2010, 02:07 PM

Woody is a moron. If I wasn't on my phone I'd quote any one of his long articles that he was paid a handsome wage to write that turned out to be completely wrong.

Rulon Velvet Jones · 09-23-2010, 02:10 PM

Ahahahaha...The Pro Bowl, Woody? He needs to make the Pro Bowl to prove anything to you? Quite the measuring stick.

jhns · 09-23-2010, 02:14 PM

I agree with you Woody and have said the same thing. Orton has always had a few good games. Consistency is his problem. Don't tell that to the people here though. He had a good game so now he is a top 5 QB! He led our offense to the bottom half of the league last year and proved that he is the future! Bronco fans don't care about winning anymore. Orton is a nice guy so you better just say he is the best QB ever and move on.

Steve Prefontaine · 09-23-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McRulon McVelvet McJones

Ahahahaha...The Pro Bowl, Woody? He needs to make the Pro Bowl to prove anything to you? Quite the measuring stick.

beat me to it. what fking moron.

Dagmar · 09-23-2010, 02:18 PM

Guys, jhns ha made this his next 10 page project, think before acting!

BlaK-Argentina · 09-23-2010, 02:19 PM

Ooh nooo the Broncos don't get air time on ESPN! That's soooo bad for us!

Yeah who the **** cares moron!

TheElusiveKyleOrton · 09-23-2010, 02:24 PM

Meh. Whatever.

Woody knows irrelevance, though. He hasn't been relevant since '96, when he pissed off the Jagwads enough to beat us in the playoffs.

jhns · 09-23-2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagmar

Guys, jhns ha made this his next 10 page project, think before acting!

I know you are looking forward to it but it won't happen unless the thread is still active tomorrow. I will only be here for another 30 minutes or so. Sorry to disappoint.

DarkHorse30 · 09-23-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagmar

Woody is a moron.

This.

Rasizer is the only Denver reporter worth paying attention to http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN
(since Schefter moved up)

TheElusiveKyleOrton · 09-23-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkHorse30

This.

Rasizer is the only Denver reporter worth paying attention to http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN
(since Schefter moved up)

Nice, didn't know about that guy, but those are some solid takes.

NOTE TO JOSINA: THIS IS HOW YOU TWEET EFFECTIVELY.

baja · 09-23-2010, 02:37 PM

I think Woody doesn't even write the stuff he puts his mane to anymore. His style has changed.

broncocalijohn · 09-23-2010, 02:43 PM

Some of the things Woody stated is completely correct and others are an opinion. We arent on the radar screen anymore and are losing the national tv more and more as we become irrelevant. I dont agree on him and Orton. If that is his measuring stick, he better feel the same way on Cutler because he has no winning record, no playoff games and a pro bowl based on Rivers getting screwed.

SoonerBronco · 09-23-2010, 02:53 PM

Sorry but any thread with "hard on" and "woody" in the title that gets past profanity filters is alright with me!

jhns · 09-23-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

Some of the things Woody stated is completely correct and others are an opinion. We arent on the radar screen anymore and are losing the national tv more and more as we become irrelevant. I dont agree on him and Orton. If that is his measuring stick, he better feel the same way on Cutler because he has no winning record, no playoff games and a pro bowl based on Rivers getting screwed.

Why would it matter what his measuring stick for Cutler is? Also, why show that you don't know football? It is pretty clear that if someone didn't belong in that pro bowl, it was Favre.

Tombstone RJ · 09-23-2010, 02:59 PM

Woody is just saying what I've been saying for years here on the OMane. Shanny lead the team into mediocrity which breads apathy in the fan base.

Anyhow, didn't someone post a link here that showed the Broncos national popularity, weren't the Broncos in the top 10?

Hogan11 · 09-23-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaK-Argentina

Ooh nooo the Broncos don't get air time on ESPN! That's soooo bad for us!

Yeah who the **** cares moron!

You'd be surprised at how many fans actually care about this and it's totally sad that they do.

Garcia Bronco · 09-23-2010, 03:05 PM

They are on the news here all week. Get out of the ****hole that is the east coast and move to Wyoming.

Tombstone RJ · 09-23-2010, 03:08 PM

Does anyone else notice the irony of this woodrow article? He claims the Broncos are not relevent outside of Colorado then answers questions from idiots in Boston and North Carolina and Houston... oh the humanity!

Bronco Rob · 09-23-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

Does anyone else notice the irony of this woodrow article? He claims the Broncos are not relevent outside of Colorado then answers questions from idiots in Boston and North Carolina and Houston... oh the humanity!

Kaylore · 09-23-2010, 03:17 PM

He's right about why we get no coverage. Yes, it's partly being in fly-over country, and yes, it's a lack of star power on the roster. Ultimately it's about winning and winning consistently. The teams that are in the hunt perennially are the ones that get the national coverage no matter what markets they are in. Whether it's big cities like New York or the small markets like Green Bay. If you win you get attention.

Hopefully we'll turn things around and begin to become a continued contender.

TheElusiveKyleOrton · 09-23-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

He's right about why we get no coverage. Yes, it's partly being in fly-over country, and yes, it's a lack of star power on the roster. Ultimately it's about winning and winning consistently. The teams that are in the hunt perennially are the ones that get the national coverage no matter what markets they are in. Whether it's big cities like New York or the small markets like Green Bay. If you win you get attention.

Hopefully we'll turn things around and begin to become a continued contender.

Exactly. Indianapolis ain't on the coast folks.

baja · 09-23-2010, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tombstone rj

does anyone else notice the irony of this woodrow article? He claims the broncos are not relevent outside of colorado then answers questions from idiots in boston and north carolina and houston... Oh the humanity!

. Lol

rbackfactory80 · 09-23-2010, 03:33 PM

The point is its hard to be patient for Denver fans when we have waited a long time for some true action. Playing in games on Sundays that aren't considered important, and realistically having no chance at the beginning of the year to win the Lombardi for quite a while is hard. Yes this weeks game will be important but can you honestly say we have any chance to win the Superbowl. Is Orton capable of leading this team to a title?

Right now you have to scratch this year and if Tebow takes over next you cant expect him to be ready to win it all. If Orton stays in an we upgrade some key spots we could be a solid playoff team next year. If all goes well (IF) this team will be ready for prime-time around 2013.

colonelbeef · 09-23-2010, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaK-Argentina

Ooh nooo the Broncos don't get air time on ESPN! That's soooo bad for us!

Yeah who the **** cares moron!

Actually it matters a lot, the NFL is a business, and more time on air means larger revenues.

09-23-2010, 02:03 PM	#1
Bronco Rob Ring of Famer There's A New Sheriff In Town Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 4,587 Adopt-a-Bronco: Bill Vinovich	Why are you so hard on Kyle Orton, Woody? Broncos have fallen off national radar Jason from Massachusetts asks Woody how the Broncos are perceived throughout the country. By Woody Paige The Denver Post Posted: 09/23/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT I am a Broncos fan who lives near Boston. I listen to a lot of sports radio on my commute to work. This morning there was talk about the Laurence Maroney trade. The morning crew referred to the Broncos organization as a joke. They claim that Josh McDaniels likes anything that Bill Belichick ever got his hands on. They picked on Josh for wearing the hoodie, for signing Jarvis Green to guaranteed money and then cutting him, for moving up and drafting Tim Tebow and for (the Maroney) trade. They even went so far as to blast the organization for picking up Chad Jackson in 2008 at one point (although I don't believe that McDaniels was there yet). It made me sick to my stomach to listen to, as does most Patriots talk. But it got me thinking. Is this the perception of the Broncos organization across the country, and are those thoughts starting to creep into Denver? I like the direction that Josh is taking the team, but I think he just needs some time, which is often a luxury teams can't afford in the win-now NFL. What are your thoughts? — Jason, Haverhill, Mass Jason: Doing the ESPN show "Around The Horn" every day, several other shows on ESPN and other networks regularly, and a dozen or so radio shows in various markets throughout the country every week, I think I get a sense of the national pulse. Few (almost none) of the commentators and NFL fans care about the Broncos. Except for the signing of Tim Tebow, there's no interest in the Broncos beyond the Colorado border (and among those few scattered Broncos loyalists elsewhere). The Broncos rarely come up in the shows (or the preshow discussions). The Broncos are irrelevant. Most people who do bring up Josh McDaniels put him a class with the other failed Bill Belichick-schooled assistants. People outside Florida laughed when McDaniels traded up to get Tebow. People scoffed when he traded away the Broncos' two most noteworthy players. But the worst thing in life is apathy, and the world is apathetic when it comes to the Broncos. They really haven't been on the national radar since the Super Bowl championships. Even the year the Broncos were in the AFC championship game again (2005), there weren't considered a threat to win the Super Bowl. It's understandable. They're a .500 team and franchise since 2006. They don't often appear on national games. Kyle Orton is not considered much of a quarterback, and the only players really known are Champ Bailey, Brian Dawkins and Elvis Dumervil (because of his name and his sacks). You've got to win more than one division championship every 10 years. You've got to win at least an occasional playoff game to be in the discussion. I actually had a dream recently that HBO couldn't get any team to do "Hard Knocks" next year, and the Jets said bring it on again. I know this: Josh McDaniels would never do "Hard Knocks," no matter how much attention the show brought to the Broncos. He's not that kind of guy or coach. The Broncos are not wide-open about what goes on inside the building. *Josh McDaniels will be a very good NFL head coach. It may take awhile — and will depend on the heads of the Broncos' state and their patience. I don't think owner Pat Bowlen and CEO Joe Ellis would ever act quickly to fire Josh. He'll likely get another two years, at the very minimum, especially with the presence of Tebow, and I would guess McDaniels will be here for years and ultimately will be successful. They'll give the coach time to develop the quarterback, and they're willing to wait, unless, suddenly, all the season-ticket holders vanished, and that won't happen. People will say, well, Bowlen fired Wade Phillips after two years. Wade was holding the chair until Mike Shanahan wanted the job. (He had turned it down before it was given to Wade.) Bowlen bought the team in 1984. He had Dan Reeves as coach through 1992. Shanahan was head coach here from 1995 to 2008. Those thinking McDaniels is going away are totally wrong. He'll be here after they are gone. Why are you so hard on Kyle Orton, Woody? What you said in the last mailbag made you look like a lost high school kid. Orton did lead the NFL in Week 1 in completions over 20 yards. What does Orton have to do to start to win you over? — Andrew, Houston* Andrew: One of Orton's best friends recently asked me the same thing. Actually, he ordered me to. Pleasant fellow. I told him what I'll tell you. Orton needs to prove it over 16 games, not one, not two, not eight. He hasn't as a pro yet. When he gets into a playoff game or a Pro Bowl as an NFL quarterback, then we'll talk. Let's see what he does in this four-game stretch before you and his friends declare Orton the No. 1 quarterback in the league. I wish I were a lost high school kid again. But I will never wish I lived in Houston. As analysts try to evaluate the Broncos' 2009 draft class, I continue to see Knowshon Moreno lauded as a good pick. He's a starting back who last season rushed for fewer than 1,000 yards — and even more shameful, under 4 yards a carry. He's too slow to break long runs and too weak to run through linebackers or safeties. Can you tell me the last great back to carry for less than 4 yards through a season? Am I the only one that feels this way about Moreno? — Chris, Raleigh, N.C. Chris: You are not alone in the wilderness. A lot of people who aren't in North Carolina agree with you. Knowshon continues to be a tentative runner who waits for a hole to open rather than getting into and through the hole. He hasn't had a long run yet (as a running back). He did have a 45-yard pass play on Sunday against the Seahawks. Oddly, enough, he just ran after catching the screen; he didn't stand around and think about running. I charted every run Knowshon had last year, and, based on that, I'll tell you something you already knew with no research. A vast majority of his carries were for 0, 1 or 2 yards. I called him NoShow Moreno, NoGain Moreno. He has been hurt again but still hasn't shown a burst a speed, can't turn the corner and can't find the hole soon enough. He won't be a bust, but he won't be a Pro Bowl back, which might, after all, make him a bust, since he was the No. 1 running back taken in the 2009 draft. However, frankly speaking, at the end of the day (as my former ESPN partner on "Dream Job," Stephen A. Smith would say), Moreno still has a chance. Emmitt Smith, you may have heard of. He has the NFL record for all-time rushing yardage. In his rookie season, 1990, Emmitt rushed for 937 yards and had a 3.9-yard-per-carry average. He picked it up dramatically his second season. Moreno must, too. http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16148413

09-23-2010, 02:24 PM	#8
TheElusiveKyleOrton www.dailydickpunch.com @RMoneyBadger Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Steamboat Springs Posts: 9,766 Adopt-a-Bronco: "Debo" Franklin	Meh. Whatever. Woody knows irrelevance, though. He hasn't been relevant since '96, when he pissed off the Jagwads enough to beat us in the playoffs. __________________ Nobody puts Jay-bee in the corner.

09-23-2010, 02:37 PM	#12
baja It is what it Is. Pay attention. Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 53,763 Adopt-a-Bronco: Buy My Book	I think Woody doesn't even write the stuff he puts his mane to anymore. His style has changed. Last edited by baja; 09-23-2010 at 02:46 PM..

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09-23-2010, 02:07 PM	#2
Dagmar ...there ain't no devil ..there's just God when he's drunk. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Morrison Posts: 17,132 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tim Tebow	Woody is a moron. If I wasn't on my phone I'd quote any one of his long articles that he was paid a handsome wage to write that turned out to be completely wrong.

09-23-2010, 02:10 PM	#3
Rulon Velvet Jones You're not really here. Tight Butthole Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 6,597 Adopt-a-Bronco: Rent-A-DC	Ahahahaha...The Pro Bowl, Woody? He needs to make the Pro Bowl to prove anything to you? Quite the measuring stick.

09-23-2010, 02:14 PM	#4
jhns I'm all up in your face but you still can't C me! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Omaha Posts: 12,405 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	I agree with you Woody and have said the same thing. Orton has always had a few good games. Consistency is his problem. Don't tell that to the people here though. He had a good game so now he is a top 5 QB! He led our offense to the bottom half of the league last year and proved that he is the future! Bronco fans don't care about winning anymore. Orton is a nice guy so you better just say he is the best QB ever and move on.

09-23-2010, 02:18 PM	#6
Dagmar ...there ain't no devil ..there's just God when he's drunk. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Morrison Posts: 17,132 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tim Tebow	Guys, jhns ha made this his next 10 page project, think before acting!

09-23-2010, 02:19 PM	#7
BlaK-Argentina Pampita says... ... support your team! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mar del Plata, Argentina. Posts: 5,174 Adopt-a-Bronco: Eddie Royal	Ooh nooo the Broncos don't get air time on ESPN! That's soooo bad for us! Yeah who the **** cares moron!

09-23-2010, 02:43 PM	#13
broncocalijohn Famer of Rings My Dog Richard Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Lake Forest, Orange County, Calif. Posts: 18,458 Adopt-a-Bronco: Simon Fletcher	Some of the things Woody stated is completely correct and others are an opinion. We arent on the radar screen anymore and are losing the national tv more and more as we become irrelevant. I dont agree on him and Orton. If that is his measuring stick, he better feel the same way on Cutler because he has no winning record, no playoff games and a pro bowl based on Rivers getting screwed.

09-23-2010, 02:53 PM	#14
SoonerBronco Rocket Man Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 1,978 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wahoo McDaniel	Sorry but any thread with "hard on" and "woody" in the title that gets past profanity filters is alright with me!

09-23-2010, 02:59 PM	#16
Tombstone RJ Ring of Famer Old School Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In the Tetons! Posts: 19,273 Adopt-a-Bronco: WorrellWilliams	Woody is just saying what I've been saying for years here on the OMane. Shanny lead the team into mediocrity which breads apathy in the fan base. Anyhow, didn't someone post a link here that showed the Broncos national popularity, weren't the Broncos in the top 10?

09-23-2010, 03:05 PM	#18
Garcia Bronco Hokie since 1993 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 45,987 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tom Jackson	They are on the news here all week. Get out of the ****hole that is the east coast and move to Wyoming.

09-23-2010, 03:08 PM	#19
Tombstone RJ Ring of Famer Old School Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In the Tetons! Posts: 19,273 Adopt-a-Bronco: WorrellWilliams	Does anyone else notice the irony of this woodrow article? He claims the Broncos are not relevent outside of Colorado then answers questions from idiots in Boston and North Carolina and Houston... oh the humanity!

09-23-2010, 03:17 PM	#21
Kaylore 6-37, Raider fans. Yummy birds and snow! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ceti Alpha V Posts: 41,009 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wesley Duke	He's right about why we get no coverage. Yes, it's partly being in fly-over country, and yes, it's a lack of star power on the roster. Ultimately it's about winning and winning consistently. The teams that are in the hunt perennially are the ones that get the national coverage no matter what markets they are in. Whether it's big cities like New York or the small markets like Green Bay. If you win you get attention. Hopefully we'll turn things around and begin to become a continued contender.

09-23-2010, 03:33 PM	#24
rbackfactory80 Ring of Famer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Posts: 4,606	The point is its hard to be patient for Denver fans when we have waited a long time for some true action. Playing in games on Sundays that aren't considered important, and realistically having no chance at the beginning of the year to win the Lombardi for quite a while is hard. Yes this weeks game will be important but can you honestly say we have any chance to win the Superbowl. Is Orton capable of leading this team to a title? Right now you have to scratch this year and if Tebow takes over next you cant expect him to be ready to win it all. If Orton stays in an we upgrade some key spots we could be a solid playoff team next year. If all goes well (IF) this team will be ready for prime-time around 2013.