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Old 07-09-2010, 12:41 PM   #151
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If you want to talk about cheap exploited labor, then look at the country you live in, MEXICO.

Or look at Indonesia, or the Philippines, or India, or China, or El Salvador or any number of other countries that have cheap labor and that the US buys exports from because of the cheap labor.

The US is so enticing to illigal migrants because they are paid much better than in Mexico.

Good point now mail your lawn to Indonesia to get mowed
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:47 PM   #152
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Good point now mail your lawn to Indonesia to get mowed
what about my windows?!?!?!
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:49 PM   #153
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Good point now mail your lawn to Indonesia to get mowed
I agree that many people look the other way to hire illegals and I also agree that these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. That being said, the non-legals also know who they are and they are not exactly coming out and admitting their culpability either.

Listen, the people who are getting screwed once again are the poor. These non-legal migrants are going to end up being the ones who lose in the end because the freaking dumb ass feds have not done their jobs.

Now we live in a world where we have enemies who want to destroy us from within, plus all the drug cartels that are waring among themselves and with the Mexican police. It's a big crap sandwich for everyone.

Also, many of the non-legals who are in the US have no intention on becoming a US citizen. They simply want to work and send money home and then eventually go back to Mexico or Latin American to be with family. I understand that and I'm ok with that. However, they need to be here with proper identification and with work visas just like all the other people who come from other nations to work in the US.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:00 PM   #154
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what about my windows?!?!?!
Clean your screen. A little Windex and a paper towel should do it. Maybe an anti-static wipe if you want to get really fancy.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:29 PM   #155
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The 14th Amendment does not protect illegal immigrants or non-naturalized citizens. Its political correctness that is hampering justice is this country, not the fact that AZ wants to actually protect its border with Mexico.

If you are a citizen of the US, there is nothing to worry about. Countries like Mexico enforce their laws with no problem, that is, if they think you are not a citizen they will make you produce documentation.

However, here in the US where political correctness rules the day, our police can't ask for documents because they might inconvinience a few naturalized and legal citizens.

In other countries, this is ok because they are enforcing the law. In the US, it's not ok because it's deemed racial profiling.
Do you genuinely believe that it will only be illegals who will be stopped by police and asked for papers... based primarily on the color of their skin? No... plenty of American citizens will be profiled and targeted for harassment too. And it's those American citizens' 14th Amendment rights that will be violated when (not if) they are stopped and "detained until they can show their papers". Y'know... most people don't routinely carry the original copy of their birth certificate in their car with them... doing so would raise a risk of identity theft if that important document were to be lost or stolen, which is why most people usually keep it in a safe place at home.

Dunno about other states, but here in Washington, you have to show your original birth certificate before obtaining your learner's permit (which means if you have a permit or driver's license, a state licensing agent has seen your proof of citizenship). And if you get the EDL (enhanced driver's license), then you have to show your original birth certificate again... as well as other paperwork that proves precisely where you live.

Again, the "problem employers" of illegal immigrants are not Home Depot customers. If finding a job wasn't pretty easy for the immigrants, then we wouldn't have such a large volume of them coming here. And maybe finding a job wouldn't be so easy for them if there were significant penalties applied to any employer who was found to have hired one.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:41 PM   #156
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I think a lot of this is a bunch of hoo-hah-which issue is bigger: the fact that Arizona is losing land it can't Police, the Crime, loss of Jobs, Law enforcement is out-gunned (they say), Drug Cartels threatening local Law Enforcement, etc., etc., or someone might get pulled over because they are Speeding?

This Law has provisions regarding profiling, and if we all think that profiling doesn't happen in every US city we're blind-my Wife was in Phoenix and Tucson this week (she manages some Businesses down there and goes regulary), and it's getting scary-she is particularly concerned when in Tucson (the Business there is on the South side)-

If I'm Speeding, pull me over-want my License, Sir? Here you go-
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:54 PM   #157
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Do you genuinely believe that it will only be illegals who will be stopped by police and asked for papers... based primarily on the color of their skin? No... plenty of American citizens will be profiled and targeted for harassment too. And it's those American citizens' 14th Amendment rights that will be violated when (not if) they are stopped and "detained until they can show their papers". Y'know... most people don't routinely carry the original copy of their birth certificate in their car with them... doing so would raise a risk of identity theft if that important document were to be lost or stolen, which is why most people usually keep it in a safe place at home.

Dunno about other states, but here in Washington, you have to show your original birth certificate before obtaining your learner's permit (which means if you have a permit or driver's license, a state licensing agent has seen your proof of citizenship). And if you get the EDL (enhanced driver's license), then you have to show your original birth certificate again... as well as other paperwork that proves precisely where you live.

Again, the "problem employers" of illegal immigrants are not Home Depot customers. If finding a job wasn't pretty easy for the immigrants, then we wouldn't have such a large volume of them coming here. And maybe finding a job wouldn't be so easy for them if there were significant penalties applied to any employer who was found to have hired one.
First of all, this is complete and utter speculation on your part. You are creating "what ifs" before anything is being inacted or acted upon. Secondly, it's not "harassment". This is a way for you to justify doing nothing.

Being harassed and being inconvenienced are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!

This is not Nazi germany for pete's sake. The Gestapo "harassed" people. The police asking for proper identification is NOT harassment. Again, this is flame throwing by you. This a case of you completely blowing the situation out of proportion in order to justify your belief, which is sad.
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:06 PM   #158
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First of all, this is complete and utter speculation on your part. You are creating "what ifs" before anything is being inacted or acted upon. Secondly, it's not "harassment". This is a way for you to justify doing nothing.

Being harassed and being inconvenienced are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!

This is not Nazi germany for pete's sake. The Gestapo "harassed" people. The police asking for proper identification is NOT harassment. Again, this is flame throwing by you. This a case of you completely blowing the situation out of proportion in order to justify your belief, which is sad.
It's not speculation... it will happen. Now, I'm not bashing cops in any way, shape or form... but they are human beings and some human beings can and do show bias. The law basically condones racial profiling and it will happen.

Where did I say I wanted to "do nothing"? I've repeatedly said I want the employers held accountable if they fail to verify that all of their employees are in this country legally. "I" think we have to address the root of the problem (cutting off or severely limiting the number of jobs available for illegals here) or it isn't going to be effectively dealt with. The Arizona law (IMHO) is going to be ineffective in its purpose... in addition to marginalizing the civil rights of certain demographic groups (brown-skinned people).
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:21 PM   #159
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It's not speculation... it will happen. Now, I'm not bashing cops in any way, shape or form... but they are human beings and some human beings can and do show bias. The law basically condones racial profiling and it will happen.

Where did I say I wanted to "do nothing"? I've repeatedly said I want the employers held accountable if they fail to verify that all of their employees are in this country legally. "I" think we have to address the root of the problem (cutting off or severely limiting the number of jobs available for illegals here) or it isn't going to be effectively dealt with. The Arizona law (IMHO) is going to be ineffective in its purpose... in addition to marginalizing the civil rights of certain demographic groups (brown-skinned people).
As another poster has already pointed out, AZ is one of the toughest states in the union on this policy already. Apparently, illegals are still a problem.

One skeleton in the closet that no one is talking about is identity theft. Some illegals are getting hired because they have stole another person's identity and therefore present the proper documentation when being hired. There are loopholes illegals can exploit to get a job. I'm pretty sure alias's are a problem in the illegal immigrant situation and sometimes an employer can be duped even though they are following proper hiring proceedures.
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:25 PM   #160
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There just is no need to have to prove you are an American. We don't even want tourists to feel they will have to deal with our police. Hell one guy shot someone and said he thought it was his taser. The less contact we can have with the police the better off we all will be. Let's not make them have to interact with people who aren't obviously committing a crime. They have more important things to do then look for illegals.

The laws to solve this are there. The border needs to be sealed. We need a federal worker program that documents who is in country working and sets forth how much tax they pay. The process to be an American is already there just enforce that.

We need a President with balls and not one has had the guts to tackle immigration.
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:56 PM   #161
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You really can't have a discussion without being shrill, can you TGN? Are you just incapable of having a grown up conversation without resorting to bull**** "you just don't want to catch people breaking the law!" nonsense.

It's pathetic. It would be funny if it weren't so childish.

It's not about "upsetting" a few innocent citizens. It's about "arresting" and "trampling the civil rights of" a few innocent citizens.

And what's more, THERE ARE BETTER ****ING WAYS OF DOING THIS. Like cutting off the jobs that these people are coming to this country for. Until you make any REAL strides in that direction, a law like this is trampling civil rights for NO reason.

Christ. Pull your head out of your ass.

"TGN just wants to trample civil rights!" See what a ridiculous argument that is? I know that's not your intent, but to make my point, I'll accuse you of something ridiculous. It's the reasoning of a five year old, which is why I don't use it. Try to grow up.
No they would be arresting illeval immigrants who have no rights as citizens
Your arguement is weak grasshoppa
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:12 PM   #162
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As another poster has already pointed out, AZ is one of the toughest states in the union on this policy already. Apparently, illegals are still a problem.

One skeleton in the closet that no one is talking about is identity theft. Some illegals are getting hired because they have stole another person's identity and therefore present the proper documentation when being hired. There are loopholes illegals can exploit to get a job. I'm pretty sure alias's are a problem in the illegal immigrant situation and sometimes an employer can be duped even though they are following proper hiring proceedures.
Obviously they're not doing enough then.

I'm sure the identity theft problem can be alleviated through forcing people to carry their original birth certificate in their car whenever they drive.... talk about an opportunity for a potential identity thief.

I think one of the larger problems re: identity theft just might be the annual reports that Social Security mails out.... every single item of personal information that a potential identity thief would need is listed on that report. If the Post Office misdelivers that letter, it could be really bad... and considering the volume of mail, it's very likely to have happened.
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:50 PM   #163
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No they would be arresting illeval immigrants who have no rights as citizens
Your arguement is weak grasshoppa
Ideally, you're right. It would only be "illeval" immigrants. Unfortunately, that's simply not necessarily how it would go, as someone could easily be arrested for walking around while Mexican, which is now an arrestable offense in Arizona.

When I run with my dog, I don't take my ID. If I have a tan, and a cop says he saw me not pick up my dog's waste, I can be arrested. Why? Because I don't have my "papers." See how that works, grasshoppa?
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:14 PM   #164
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Ideally, you're right. It would only be "illeval" immigrants. Unfortunately, that's simply not necessarily how it would go, as someone could easily be arrested for walking around while Mexican, which is now an arrestable offense in Arizona.

When I run with my dog, I don't take my ID. If I have a tan, and a cop says he saw me not pick up my dog's waste, I can be arrested. Why? Because I don't have my "papers." See how that works, grasshoppa?
You seem to know what a "Mexican" looks like and you are the one profiling. I love how it's ok for you to profile because you are "concerned" about a Latino's rights being violated. You seem to be suggesting that there are no white Latinos, why is that? Is it not possible for a Latino to have fair skin? You also seem to be suggesting that anyone with tan skin is only a Mexican, again, why is that?

Irony of the highest order, congrats.

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Old 07-09-2010, 05:19 PM   #165
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You seem to know what a "Mexican" looks like and you are the one pofiling. I love how it's ok for you to profile because you are "concerned" about a Latino's rights being violated. You seem to be suggesting that there are no white Latinos, why is that? Is it not possible for a Latino to have fair skin? You also seem to be suggesting that anyone with tan skin is only a Mexican, again, why is that?

Irony of the highest order, congrats.
Holy ****, you're a moron. Congratulations.

It was an example, stupid. Try to catch up with the rest of the class.
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:23 PM   #166
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Holy ****, you're a moron. Congratulations.

It was an example, stupid. Try to catch up with the rest of the class.
I understand, but you're still profiling. That's ok, I won't call you a racist, I leave that up to alarmists who are trying to use political correctness to justify illegal activity.
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:23 PM   #167
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You seem to know what a "Mexican" looks like and you are the one profiling. I love how it's ok for you to profile because you are "concerned" about a Latino's rights being violated. You seem to be suggesting that there are no white Latinos, why is that? Is it not possible for a Latino to have fair skin? You also seem to be suggesting that anyone with tan skin is only a Mexican, again, why is that?

Irony of the highest order, congrats.
I'm personally concerned about the possibility of any American citizen's rights being violated.
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:27 PM   #168
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I'm personally concerned about the possibility of any American citizen's rights being violated.
I agree Blue, it's a difficult situation.
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:27 PM   #169
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Question for you, Tombstone... if all of these American employers are in fact obeying the law and asking potential employees for IDs and other paperwork... being duped due to the illegals stealing Americans' identities... then just what is the Arizona law going to do to solve illegal immigration? If the illegals have (stolen-identity) ID, then they just show that and go on their merry way, right?
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:48 PM   #170
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Question for you, Tombstone... if all of these American employers are in fact obeying the law and asking potential employees for IDs and other paperwork... being duped due to the illegals stealing Americans' identities... then just what is the Arizona law going to do to solve illegal immigration? If the illegals have (stolen-identity) ID, then they just show that and go on their merry way, right?
I agree that more needs to be done by the employers to insure that they are not "intentionally" hiring illegals. The big companies (ones that have a human resources department) can usually protect themselves by following proper protocol. The smaller companies (no HR department) are the ones who are at risk if they don't due their due diligence.

The most basic form of personal ID that I can think of is a driver's license, correct? If you cannot get a driver's license then you can still get a photo ID of some kind from the state, correct? It appears to me that this is where the main problem is, that is, if an illegal can get a state ID or DL and they are NOT a naturalized/legal citizen then the system itself is flawed.

I agree that carrying around a birth certificate is moronic and can lead to real abuse and personal harm if the certificate is stolen. That being said, there has to be an in between form of ID that is authentic, verifiable and very hard to counterfit. I know that when I'm hired for a job, I have to produce two forms of ID: a picture ID like a DL and my SS card. If illegals can get these two IDs then there is a real problem with "the system".

So, I guess my answer is to perhaps have a SS card with a picture. Update this SS card/pic every 5 years or so to keep it current. Keep this card/pic in a safe place like a safe. If push comes to shove and the authorities make you produce this ID, then yes it's kind of a hassel but once you show it to them then they know everything is ligit. Call it a US Citizen ID or something to that effect.
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:55 PM   #171
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Question for you, Tombstone... if all of these American employers are in fact obeying the law and asking potential employees for IDs and other paperwork... being duped due to the illegals stealing Americans' identities... then just what is the Arizona law going to do to solve illegal immigration? If the illegals have (stolen-identity) ID, then they just show that and go on their merry way, right?
Except Police can identify a fake ID better than the average business owner.
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Old 07-09-2010, 06:05 PM   #172
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Old 07-09-2010, 06:10 PM   #173
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Old 07-09-2010, 06:26 PM   #174
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I agree that more needs to be done by the employers to insure that they are not "intentionally" hiring illegals. The big companies (ones that have a human resources department) can usually protect themselves by following proper protocol. The smaller companies (no HR department) are the ones who are at risk if they don't due their due diligence.

The most basic form of personal ID that I can think of is a driver's license, correct? If you cannot get a driver's license then you can still get a photo ID of some kind from the state, correct? It appears to me that this is where the main problem is, that is, if an illegal can get a state ID or DL and they are NOT a naturalized/legal citizen then the system itself is flawed.

I agree that carrying around a birth certificate is moronic and can lead to real abuse and personal harm if the certificate is stolen. That being said, there has to be an in between form of ID that is authentic, verifiable and very hard to counterfit. I know that when I'm hired for a job, I have to produce two forms of ID: a picture ID like a DL and my SS card. If illegals can get these two IDs then there is a real problem with "the system".

So, I guess my answer is to perhaps have a SS card with a picture. Update this SS card/pic every 5 years or so to keep it current. Keep this card/pic in a safe place like a safe. If push comes to shove and the authorities make you produce this ID, then yes it's kind of a hassel but once you show it to them then they know everything is ligit. Call it a US Citizen ID or something to that effect.
That's just the point though... I believe that the illegal immigration problem exists because "some" (not all, of course, but a significant number) employers do in fact intentionally hire illegals. Because they can pay them less than American citizens, who will require minimum wage and employment paperwork (Medicare and FICA tax withholdings, etc .)

I don't know for sure about other states, but I do know that Washington requires that an original birth certificate (with the raised seal) is shown... along with other paperwork proving residency in order to obtain a driver's license or permit... or a state ID card. And if the applicant is over 18 years old, the requirements are significantly more stringent (driving permits for those under 18 require an original birth certificate + the parent's driver's license to be shown; over 18 require additional paperwork as well... IIRC... 3 pieces of mail like utility bills addressed to the applicant... to prove where they live). And while no Social Security card has to be shown, a valid number (which is checked at the DOL before the ID is issued) must be provided.

The card you're describing (an "enhanced driver's license") does exist in some states (including Washington). It has an RFID chip embedded and the driver's license picture includes facial recognition technology. It would be very nearly impossible to counterfeit an EDL.
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Old 07-09-2010, 06:59 PM   #175
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You realize that's fake, right?
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