The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-04-2010, 06:09 AM   #1
titan
Ring of Famer
 
titan's Avatar
 
Fan of Old School Football

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,029

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default with Tebow how much do mechanics matter?

http://gazettebroncos.freedombloggin...hanics-matter/

With Tebow, how much do mechanics matter?
by Frank Schwab

For all the ink that has been spilled on Tim Tebow's mechanics (including a whole bunch in today's Gazette), two men who worked with Tebow this offseason want you to know something:

Mechanics don't matter all that much for a quarterback.

Former NFL coach Sam Wyche and longtime NFL offensive coordinator and current CFL coach Marc Trestman aren't saying mechanics are meaningless. Tebow has a better chance for success with the Denver Broncos without his long baseball-type windup. (Although, to repeat something from today's story, Wyche said he didn't think Randall Cunningham would make it in the NFL when he saw his long delivery coming out of college. Cunningham didn't change much, and as Wyche pointed out in a deadpan, "Randall Cunningham did all right.")

But both coaches started their interviews about quarterback mechanics by sharing the same sentiment.

"At the end of the day, mechanics are probably the last thing on the list or requirements to play quarterback at the highest level," Trestman said.
"That's very, very overdone," Wyche said of attention paid to a quarterback's mechanics.

...

An improved throwing motion will help, but based on the thoughts of two respected quarterback coaches, one ha to wonder if the teeth-gnashing about Tebow's mechanics really has much bearing on whether he'll be a successful NFL quarterback.

"The guy is a winner," Wyche said. "I've been around too many that turned out good."
titan is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-04-2010, 06:52 AM   #2
BroncoBuff
***************
 
BroncoBuff's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 25,741

Adopt-a-Bronco:
MALIK+QUANTERUS
Default

I'm no expert on mechanics, but if he's changing his during Senior Bowl week, the real experts must've been pretty concerned.
BroncoBuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 07:50 AM   #3
Kaylore
Anybody want a peanut?
 
Kaylore's Avatar
 
Go Avs!

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ceti Alpha V
Posts: 44,519

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Wesley Duke
Default

Mechanics can help with accuracy and protecting the ball which are both very important to being a good QB. I still maintain that a "slow release" is incredibly overrated and if the other things are good it won't matter (See Elway patting the ball before every throw effectively telegraphing where he was throwing. Also see Rivers slow release and low velocity throws. Accuracy and timing trump both these.)

Tebow holding the ball low exposes him to getting stripped a lot the way Rapistburger does (he holds it by his leg sometimes). Also keeping your body tight on the motion helps improve accuracy, stability and power. His leg fail thing not only limits accuracy but makes him vulnerable.

So while mechanics in the abstract can be overstated, looking at which aspect of his mechanics are being worked on and why (ie doing your job, journalist) can reveal how important they are. In Tebow's case, they are critical.
Kaylore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 07:53 AM   #4
Cito Pelon
Attack at all times . . .
 
Cito Pelon's Avatar
 
Shabby County Seat

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AFC Championshipville, NotTooShabby County
Posts: 15,993

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Slim Shabby
Default

I think proper mechanics are very helpful for a QB. There's been quite a few NFL QB's that didn't have the classic perfect setup and release, but every QB is a little bit different. Some have it all, some have to work on the little things (or be great runners) to be successful as NFL QB's.

The little things count a lot sometimes. Jake Plummer was a little shaky as a pocket-passer, but he was superb at selling play-action. Cutler was horrible selling the play-action, hell he'd often just wave the ball in the RB's general direction, but he was/is a pretty good pocket passer.

Tebow is right to work on his mechanics, IMO. If it can be improved, he should do so. Why limit himself? Why not try to be perfect? Look at a guy like Matt Hasselbeck, he's not an athletic QB at all, not a strong arm, but he executed and had some good years. He had his feet exactly where they were supposed to be, had his timing down with his receivers, good accuracy.

Look at Peyton Manning, he's not a great athlete, but he has perfect mechanics. His drops and timing are precise, he has his feet set properly when he throws, has his body positioned properly to get max velocity and accuracy.

Look at Dan Marino, one of the slowest players ever in the NFL, but his superfast release, accuracy, timing made him one of the most prolific passers ever (along with rule changes that penalized getting after the QB).

Look at Roger The Dodger Staubach (who I think is a good comparison to Tebow), he was raw and inexperienced with poor mechanics coming out of the Navy, but he was a winner. If Tebow can improve his mechanics he could have a better career than Staubach.

So I'd like to see Tebow work to have the perfect setup and release and actually accomplish it. It just makes him that much better, makes him more dangerous.
Cito Pelon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 08:00 AM   #5
Cito Pelon
Attack at all times . . .
 
Cito Pelon's Avatar
 
Shabby County Seat

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AFC Championshipville, NotTooShabby County
Posts: 15,993

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Slim Shabby
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
Mechanics can help with accuracy and protecting the ball which are both very important to being a good QB. I still maintain that a "slow release" is incredibly overrated and if the other things are good it won't matter (See Elway patting the ball before every throw effectively telegraphing where he was throwing. Also see Rivers slow release and low velocity throws. Accuracy and timing trump both these.)

Tebow holding the ball low exposes him to getting stripped a lot the way Rapistburger does (he holds it by his leg sometimes). Also keeping your body tight on the motion helps improve accuracy, stability and power. His leg fail thing not only limits accuracy but makes him vulnerable.

So while mechanics in the abstract can be overstated, looking at which aspect of his mechanics are being worked on and why (ie doing your job, journalist) can reveal how important they are. In Tebow's case, they are critical.
I agree. Tebow I guess could be ok without trying to be perfect. The OP mentioned Cunningham, and he used to get reamed for that slow release in the red zone where a quick snap throw is helpful.

I figure it's good for Tebow to work hard to get the perfect mechanics. It sure won't hurt.
Cito Pelon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 08:06 AM   #6
elsid13
Lost In Space
 
elsid13's Avatar
 
Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 19,570
Default

People are to focused on Tebow upper body/arm and not on his feet. He got to get his feet set better if he wants to be successful in the NFL. Right now he's unbalanced on most of his throws and doesn't set up with a good base out of his drops.
elsid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 08:25 AM   #7
CEH
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,829
Default

"At the end of the day, mechanics are probably the last thing on the list or requirements to play quarterback at the highest level," Trestman said.


I think this is kinda how Josh feels.

His mechanics need work because I don't think he will move around the pocket like an Elway or Cunningham. He may have that 6th sense in the pocket at the NFL level I don't know since we haven't seen him play. I know he won't out run LBers.

They are working hard right on ecomony of motion type drills. Towel under is right arm , tighter body and arm motions. They have already worked on improving his release point buying him 2 more feet from on coming rushers.
That might be all he needs and 1000's of reps to ingrain the new motions

Can Tebow read defenses and fit balls into tigher windows that will really be where he succeeds of fails.
CEH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 08:56 AM   #8
footstepsfrom#27
helmet to helmet hitter
 
footstepsfrom#27's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 16,135

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Joe Mays
Default

I think mechanics are important but leadership and the other intangibles this guy has are far and away more important. Does anyone really think this kid won't work it out? He's outworking everyone so I see no reason he won't adapt to whatever he has to do. Over-analysis and paralysis...just like what happens in the draft. Three years from now people will be shaking their heads that anyone doubted Tebow would be successful.
footstepsfrom#27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 10:21 AM   #9
strafen
Karma
 
strafen's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,341

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Elway
Default

The only part of Tebow's mechanic's that concerned me was his tendency to hold the ball low while moving around the pocket as it has been talked about plenty . This has been fixed.
I still believe his other great tangibles and intangibles makes his mechanic's flaws not so much of a big hindrance in his game...

Last edited by strafen; 07-04-2010 at 10:24 AM..
strafen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 10:38 AM   #10
footstepsfrom#27
helmet to helmet hitter
 
footstepsfrom#27's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 16,135

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Joe Mays
Default

It's interesting that people focus so much on the tangibles when those are things that can be coached into or out of a player over time, but it's the intangibles that are either there or they're not...those things, leadership, character, a level of competitiveness that rises to the highest degree, the ability to shoulder a team in the time of greatest pressure and perform when others can't...those are the things that can't really be taught or coached, and they're far more vital for success, yet most fans focus on combine results, what some scout or GM says, arm strength, mechanics, etc...and most of those things are either less important or they can be fixed. Give me rare leadership ability, outstanding character and a guy who won't settle for less than being the best...I"ll take that and win all day long. What truly amazes me is that we see so many examples of talent that fails...Russel for example...that we ought to have understood this lesson by now. Choose what can't be taught, coached or practiced into someone and grab that...then work on the rest. Tebow will be amazing when he figures it out. We just got to be a little patient because this guy will produce at the NFL level despite what the so called experts think.
footstepsfrom#27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 10:45 AM   #11
strafen
Karma
 
strafen's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,341

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Elway
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
It's interesting that people focus so much on the tangibles when those are things that can be coached into or out of a player over time, but it's the intangibles that are either there or they're not...those things, leadership, character, a level of competitiveness that rises to the highest degree, the ability to shoulder a team in the time of greatest pressure and perform when others can't...those are the things that can't really be taught or coached, and they're far more vital for success, yet most fans focus on combine results, what some scout or GM says, arm strength, mechanics, etc...and most of those things are either less important or they can be fixed. Give me rare leadership ability, outstanding character and a guy who won't settle for less than being the best...I"ll take that and win all day long. What truly amazes me is that we see so many examples of talent that fails...Russel for example...that we ought to have understood this lesson by now. Choose what can't be taught, coached or practiced into someone and grab that...then work on the rest. Tebow will be amazing when he figures it out. We just got to be a little patient because this guy will produce at the NFL level despite what the so called experts think.
I'll take Tebow's intangibles over any other tangible flaw he may have.
You're right, intangibles can not be taught or coached, either you have it or you don't. It's also referred as the "IT" factor that has been the common denominator in those QB's ever considered to be the best in the game.
I personally believe Tebow will surprise a lot of people. I hope they let things run their course and not expect too much too early from the guy...

Last edited by strafen; 07-04-2010 at 11:19 AM..
strafen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 10:57 AM   #12
broncogary
Horse Player and Dimwit
 
broncogary's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,847
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
It's interesting that people focus so much on the tangibles when those are things that can be coached into or out of a player over time, but it's the intangibles that are either there or they're not...those things, leadership, character, a level of competitiveness that rises to the highest degree, the ability to shoulder a team in the time of greatest pressure and perform when others can't...those are the things that can't really be taught or coached, and they're far more vital for success, yet most fans focus on combine results, what some scout or GM says, arm strength, mechanics, etc...and most of those things are either less important or they can be fixed. Give me rare leadership ability, outstanding character and a guy who won't settle for less than being the best...I"ll take that and win all day long. What truly amazes me is that we see so many examples of talent that fails...Russel for example...that we ought to have understood this lesson by now. Choose what can't be taught, coached or practiced into someone and grab that...then work on the rest. Tebow will be amazing when he figures it out. We just got to be a little patient because this guy will produce at the NFL level despite what the so called experts think.
A perfect example is Joe Montana.
broncogary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 11:11 AM   #13
gyldenlove
Ring of Famer
 
gyldenlove's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nćstved, DK
Posts: 10,775

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

Mechanics are not the be all end all of a quarterback, however it is important for a number of reasons, firstly mechanics go towards consistency, it is no use being able to laser the 30 yard deep out if you are unable to consistently hit the short hitch or in routes.

Chad Pennington has impecable mechanics and he makes his living that way despite his obvious athletic limitations, Mike Vick had amazing mechanics and unmatched athletic ability but lacked the accuracy, consistency and size to put it all together. On the other hand Roethlisberger has the mechanics of a drunk 2-year old but he makes that work.

What it really comes down to is if Tebow can keep up with the mental side of the game while on the same time having the accuracy and consistency needed to survive behind center in the NFL he can have success despite his unorthodox mechanics.
gyldenlove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 11:13 AM   #14
footstepsfrom#27
helmet to helmet hitter
 
footstepsfrom#27's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 16,135

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Joe Mays
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncogary View Post
A perfect example is Joe Montana.
Yep...also Drew Brees is a great example, and nobody talks about mechanics or any of that stuff if a guy wins. Winning at the college level is different...I get that...but some fans over emphasize that as well. If you've got the ability to make others around you better and inspire confidence, assuming some basic benchmark skills exist, that is something that exists despite the level of competition. This guy's the most fiery competitor I've ever seen at the college level, and I've got no doubt he continues that once he settles into grasping the NFL game.
footstepsfrom#27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 01:05 PM   #15
OCBronco
Seasoned Veteran
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 256

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Von Miller
Default

People seemed to complain about how Tebow dips the ball before winding up to throw. To those people, I would have them take a look at Steve Young's release:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBuGr1pDEEM


I would say the bigger thing with Tebow is speeding up his release and decision making, and also correcting some of the flaws with the rest of his body.

By the way, while I'm making Steve Young comparisons, check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4jie8tt0BI

The similarities in how Young and Tebow were assessed coming out college are spooky.
OCBronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 01:11 PM   #16
Rausch 2.0
Angry Drunken German
 
Rausch 2.0's Avatar
 
Angry Drunken German

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jefferson City, Mo.
Posts: 895

Adopt-a-Bronco:
McD
Default

I think with a round 3 contract he could be huge for you.

He would have come in without the FOOTBALL JESUS tag and could have Kordell Stewart-ed into the lineup as he got comfortable.

To me, this pick was like the Chiefs drafting a ****ING 3-4 D3 IN THE MOTHER****ING TOP 5!

*breathing......*

*baby steps*

I think if you use him like a Kordell you'll have a $#it ton of explosive trick/mix up plays that can catch a defense off guard. From punting on the 30 to a TD.

I'm just glad you didn't hire Chan Gailey after the Jesus Christ of football, Todd (I hate everyone and told grandma' to shove it up 'er 'gunt) Haley, gave him the big diss...
Rausch 2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 01:27 PM   #17
Xenos
Who got Bunny Ears?
 
Xenos's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,190

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
Mechanics can help with accuracy and protecting the ball which are both very important to being a good QB. I still maintain that a "slow release" is incredibly overrated and if the other things are good it won't matter (See Elway patting the ball before every throw effectively telegraphing where he was throwing. Also see Rivers slow release and low velocity throws. Accuracy and timing trump both these.)

Tebow holding the ball low exposes him to getting stripped a lot the way Rapistburger does (he holds it by his leg sometimes). Also keeping your body tight on the motion helps improve accuracy, stability and power. His leg fail thing not only limits accuracy but makes him vulnerable.

So while mechanics in the abstract can be overstated, looking at which aspect of his mechanics are being worked on and why (ie doing your job, journalist) can reveal how important they are. In Tebow's case, they are critical.
Except that Rivers doesn't have a slow release though. His release is funky but there's no wasted motion at all.

Tebow just needs to find the right balance. He doesn't have to have the quickest release, but he can't have the long windups like Leftwhich either.

Last edited by Xenos; 07-04-2010 at 01:33 PM..
Xenos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 02:52 PM   #18
OCBronco
Seasoned Veteran
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 256

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Von Miller
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenos View Post
Except that Rivers doesn't have a slow release though. His release is funky but there's no wasted motion at all.

Tebow just needs to find the right balance. He doesn't have to have the quickest release, but he can't have the long windups like Leftwhich either.

Rivers' motion also has a dip and a strange loop in it. Despite this, he gets rid of the ball quickly. Perhaps that's what you mean when you say it's efficient.

Check out the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86A_MlcOazo
OCBronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 03:40 PM   #19
Xenos
Who got Bunny Ears?
 
Xenos's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,190

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OCBronco View Post
Rivers' motion also has a dip and a strange loop in it. Despite this, he gets rid of the ball quickly. Perhaps that's what you mean when you say it's efficient.

Check out the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86A_MlcOazo
That's not exactly the norm for him if you see a dip and strange loop in the throwing motion. Most of the time when he throws it, he essentially just shot puts it at a 3/4 angle and it looks like he doesn't really need to pull it back at all if that makes any sense. Most of the power of the throw comes from his torso and feet. It looks a lot like he's just pushing the ball forward.
Xenos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 04:05 PM   #20
strafen
Karma
 
strafen's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,341

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Elway
Default

Anybody here remember Bernie Kosar from the Browns?
He was akward to put it mildly...

strafen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 06:08 PM   #21
Xenos
Who got Bunny Ears?
 
Xenos's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,190

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by strafen View Post
Anybody here remember Bernie Kosar from the Browns?
He was akward to put it mildly...

Marino also had a somewhat similar 3/4 release.
Xenos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 08:08 PM   #22
Ray Finkle
DOOONNNTTTTT CAAARRREEE!
 
Ray Finkle's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 7,470
Default

I compare it to a hockey/lacrosse players shot mechanics. Natural athletes will find a way but if you refine their mechanics, you have a great chance of consistency. That is what Tebow needs consistent mechanics....
Ray Finkle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 08:10 PM   #23
BroncoMan4ever
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoMan4ever's Avatar
 
That's just like your opinion, man

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 12,932

Adopt-a-Bronco:
VIRGIL GREEN!!!
Default

i am not all that worried about his mechanics or how he looks throwing the ball, all i care about is the results.

look at Rivers, he has one of the weirdest throwing motions i have ever seen in the NFL, yet he is a top 5 QB in the league. if strange mechanics are getting the job done, who cares what he looks like throwing the ball.
BroncoMan4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2010, 12:15 AM   #24
boltaneer
17
 
boltaneer's Avatar
 
ATTA BABY!

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: America's Finest City
Posts: 4,320
Default

The key with Rivers mechanics is his quick release, not slow release. Rivers has a strange throwing motion but his footwork and everything else is fine.

I think it's hard to be successful with a slow release. Tebow needs to keep working to shorten it if he is going to succeed IMO. Maybe it's just because I'm so used to seeing Tebow's old slow release when I watch his new motion, it's quicker but it looks so stiff and forced. He doesn't look comfortable doing it yet.

BTW, Brees had all sorts of issues with his mechanics early in his career here. He can thank Brian Schottenheimer for being inept in that department. He actually sought coaching in the off season because he wasn't getting it from Marty's boy. I think Sean Peyton has worked wonders with him since arriving in New Orleans because Brees now is the poster boy for perfect mechanics.

You guys had better hope little McD doesn't turn out to be another Brian Schottenheimer, especially with a project like Tebow.
boltaneer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2010, 06:13 AM   #25
baja
It is what it Is.
 
baja's Avatar
 
Pay attention.

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in a bunker
Posts: 56,917

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Julius Thomas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltaneer View Post
The key with Rivers mechanics is his quick release, not slow release. Rivers has a strange throwing motion but his footwork and everything else is fine.

I think it's hard to be successful with a slow release. Tebow needs to keep working to shorten it if he is going to succeed IMO. Maybe it's just because I'm so used to seeing Tebow's old slow release when I watch his new motion, it's quicker but it looks so stiff and forced. He doesn't look comfortable doing it yet.

BTW, Brees had all sorts of issues with his mechanics early in his career here. He can thank Brian Schottenheimer for being inept in that department. He actually sought coaching in the off season because he wasn't getting it from Marty's boy. I think Sean Peyton has worked wonders with him since arriving in New Orleans because Brees now is the poster boy for perfect mechanics.

You guys had better hope little McD doesn't turn out to be another Brian Schottenheimer, especially with a project like Tebow.

Np dobt, It's going to be all or nothing with McDaniels.
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:50 AM.


Denver Broncos