The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-25-2010, 04:22 PM   #1
Popps
It's so easy
 
Popps's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 29,774
Default Realistic expectations for first round pick?

So, I've been thinking about the huge weight that seems to have been applied to this low first round pick. (Tebow) I can't recall a pick having such heavy scrutiny in a very long time. Jay Cutler was a #11 pick, and while Broncos fans were excited... I don't recall anyone claiming that Mike Shanahan was "forever tied" to the pick, etc. (Though, ultimately... there's an argument that the beginning of his end started with that pick.)

Also, when I look back over our drafts since the 1990s, it seems to me that not only are our lower 1st round picks batting a very low success rate, but our overall 1st round experience for two decades has been extremely inefficient.

In fact, when looking at every draft pick since 1990, I come up with 5 players that appear to be worth the pick we used to acquire them. (Last year graded a N/A at this point.)

Take it a step further, and only use lower 1st round picks...

In 20 years, we've selected only 2 players late in the first round who were significant contributers to the team...


91 4 Mike Croel Linebacker Nebraska
1992 25 Tommy Maddox Quarterback UCLA
1993 11 Dan Williams Defensive end Toledo [j]
1994 — No pick — — [k]
1995 — No pick — — [l]
1996 15 John Mobley Linebacker Kutztown
1997 28 Trevor Pryce Defensive tackle Clemson
1998 30 Marcus Nash Wide receiver Tennessee
1999 31 Al Wilson Linebacker Tennessee
2000 15 Deltha O'Neal Cornerback California [m]
2001 24 Willie Middlebrooks Cornerback Minnesota
2002 19 Ashley Lelie Wide receiver Hawaii
2003 20 George Foster Offensive tackle Georgia
2004 17 D. J. Williams Linebacker Miami (FL) [n]
2005 — No pick — — [o]
2006 11 Jay Cutler Quarterback Vanderbilt [p]
2007 17 Jarvis Moss Defensive end Florida [q]
2008 12 Ryan Clady Offensive tackle Boise State
2009 12 Knowshon Moreno Running back Georgia
18 Robert Ayers Defensive end Tennessee [r]
2010 22 Demaryius Thomas Wide receiver Georgia Tech
25 Tim Tebow Quarterback Florida


So, when we hear the "experts" attach such lofty and critical expectations to this pick, you have to wonder where thy these same experts aren't talking about Jarvis Moss, and how a 1st round pick from just three years ago is probably soon to be released.

How is it that we have outrage over the Tebow pick when he hasn't taken a single snap, and yet no mention of the time/money/pick invested in Jarvis Moss that will likely end with nothing.

Beyond that, given our (and likely most of the league's) track record in the first round... where do these demands of Tebow come from? Less than 30% of our 1st rounders have panned out, including higher choices. Why are the standards different for this one?

Now, we all expect writers to be pretty clueless... but maybe fans will put all of this in a bit more perspective, and have some fun with this pick, instead of expecting it to change the face of Colorado sports forever.

Think about it, if Tebow even developed into a part-time multi-weapon and a solid back-up, he'd be more valuable than 70% of our picks over the last 20 years, and only the 3rd lower 1st rounder in that span to serve the franchise productively.

Maybe if we fans keep a little reality check on this whole situation, we can better enjoy following... and rooting for his progress.

Last edited by Popps; 04-25-2010 at 04:26 PM..
Popps is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 04-25-2010, 04:31 PM   #2
azbroncfan
Ring of Famer
 
azbroncfan's Avatar
 
Angry guntoting,meateating AMERICAN

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Scottsdale
Posts: 8,644

Adopt-a-Bronco:
TEBOW
Default

I have always said nothing in sports is more overrated than an NFL first round pick. In fact in my opinion is that the pick has more value in trading back and acquiring more picks than the actual player that is drafted. Good analysis Popps.
azbroncfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 04:33 PM   #3
Popps
It's so easy
 
Popps's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 29,774
Default

"I've never heard more wasted conversation in my life..."

-Jon Gruden on where players are/should be selected.
Popps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 04:50 PM   #4
Bronco Boy
Avid Ambien Abuser
 
Bronco Boy's Avatar
 
Eric Fischer: Catholic Priest

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York. **** you too.
Posts: 2,030

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Lamin Barrow
Default

...Clady? Oh, I see. Late in the first round.
Bronco Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 04:52 PM   #5
gunns
I WANT DEFENSE!
 
gunns's Avatar
 
Defense, defense, defense

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Always Hoping
Posts: 12,715

Adopt-a-Bronco:
TJ Ward
Default

Quote:
Maybe if we fans keep a little reality check on this whole situation, we can better enjoy following... and rooting for his progress.
That was good, but revealing Shanahan's problems with the late 1st round doesn't equate to it being an overall problem. I would have liked to see late rounders, for that time period, overall success rate. That being said even if it's a majority of the late rounders, I don't need a reality check to better enjoy the following and root for his progress. I do that because I'm a Bronco fan.
gunns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 05:00 PM   #6
ColoradoDarin
Not Too Shabby Poster
 
ColoradoDarin's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 8,253

Adopt-a-Bronco:
CJ
Default

You need a much bigger sample to mean anything (how many late 1st rounders we've had prior to this year - 6). Even if you take the full sample of first rounders in the last 20 years, it's still not enough. You are also talking about 3-4 different regimes of picking players with different criteria. I really don't know if this means anything.
ColoradoDarin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 05:18 PM   #7
Popps
It's so easy
 
Popps's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 29,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin View Post
You need a much bigger sample to mean anything (how many late 1st rounders we've had prior to this year - 6). Even if you take the full sample of first rounders in the last 20 years, it's still not enough. You are also talking about 3-4 different regimes of picking players with different criteria. I really don't know if this means anything.
I think it does, and I think you just answered the question.

How many late first round picks have been "organization changers" for this team?

Really very few over the course of the franchise. Even our higher picks have had a very low success rate.

So, again... it's not that you don't hope for the best, here. But, if people are demanding that he's the savior of the franchise, simply because he was picked in the top 30 picks, I'd suggest they balance those demands by looking at the reality of 1st round pick success rate over the course of history.
Popps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 05:25 PM   #8
Mogulseeker
Formerly mightysmurf
 
Mogulseeker's Avatar
 
Eat greedy

Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Boulder... Vail when it snoooows
Posts: 16,931

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Lamin Barrow
Default

A lot of our best players were taken in the 4th.
Mogulseeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 05:26 PM   #9
extralife
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,087
Default

Don't be stupid. You miss with a first round QB, someone pays a price. When that first round QB is simultaneously the most known college player in the last fifty years AND a guy MOST people around the game of football think we significantly overpaid for, well, it ain't getting any easier. Don't be naive just to cover McD's ass before the kid ever puts on a Broncos uniform. That you already feel the need to try to soften the blow of a possible falls tells us you yourself believe what you appear to be railing against in this thread.

And lets go down the list anyway, just for kicks

91: serviceable
92: disastrous pick, but a serviceable player far down the road
93: got me
96: integral part of super bowl teams
97: almost a hall of fame kind of player
98: bust
99: great player, all pro, etc.
00: below average pick, had some high points and a pro bowl year, but way too inconsistent
01: bust
02: see 00
03: bust, but at least started for two teams
04: has played ever LB position for us, occasionally at a pro bowl level
06: not even touching this, but it ain't a bust
07: bust
08: baring something strange, this one looks like a home run

So it's almost 50/50 for the Broncos. I would say our first round picks over that period of time have probably been slightly below league average. Not that I know where you're even going with that.
extralife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 05:45 PM   #10
bowtown
Ring of Famer
 
bowtown's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,608

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Aaron Brewer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
Maybe if we fans keep a little reality check on this whole situation, we can better enjoy following... and rooting for his progress.
You must be new here.
bowtown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 05:46 PM   #11
gyldenlove
Ring of Famer
 
gyldenlove's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nęstved, DK
Posts: 11,209

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

A 1st round pick is a 50/50 proposition going around the league, about half the players will have solid careers at least and about half will last less than 5 years or ride the pine.

The real difference comes with QBs, there are no average QBs, if you are a lineman it is fine being the average guy next to the superstar, but if you are the QB if you are not good, you are bad. Almost every player can find a spot in the league as a backup or rotation guy but that doesn't happen with QBs, so QBs are always binary, 0 or 1.

Lets look at the 4 players we have drafted in the 1st round the last couple of years. Moreno, even if he doesn't become the pro bowl stud RB, he can still find a solid niche as a 15 carry guy who blocks and catches as well, you can make a very good career like that, just look at Westbrook. Ayers, even if he is not the next Demarcus Ware or Elvis Dumervil, he could be the next Mike Vrabel or Jarrett Johnson, that would be good, you need those guys to win super bowls - Thomas doesn't have to be the new Randy Moss, David Givens would do just fine. Tebow on the other hand will most likely never be a support player, if he is not Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger he might be Rex Grossman or Alex Smith, and that is just not enough.
gyldenlove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 05:47 PM   #12
gyldenlove
Ring of Famer
 
gyldenlove's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nęstved, DK
Posts: 11,209

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

Remember, there are only two kinds of teams in the NFL: Those who have a franchise QB and those who are looking for one.
gyldenlove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 06:04 PM   #13
listopencil
[sarcasm]text[/sarcasm]
 
listopencil's Avatar
 
BOOM! Winner.

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The People's Republic Of California
Posts: 8,537

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Broncos FO
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
Jay Cutler was a #11 pick, and while Broncos fans were excited... I don't recall anyone claiming that Mike Shanahan was "forever tied" to the pick, etc. (Though, ultimately... there's an argument that the beginning of his end started with that pick.)
So...those of us that were seriously PISSED THE **** OFF when Shanny picked Cutler were absolutely correct?
listopencil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 06:08 PM   #14
listopencil
[sarcasm]text[/sarcasm]
 
listopencil's Avatar
 
BOOM! Winner.

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The People's Republic Of California
Posts: 8,537

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Broncos FO
Default

Quote:
2000 15 Deltha O'Neal Cornerback California [m]
2001 24 Willie Middlebrooks Cornerback Minnesota
2002 19 Ashley Lelie Wide receiver Hawaii
2003 20 George Foster Offensive tackle Georgia


Wow. That is some depressing **** right there.
listopencil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 06:17 PM   #15
Popps
It's so easy
 
Popps's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 29,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
So...those of us that were seriously PISSED THE **** OFF when Shanny picked Cutler were absolutely correct?
In retrospect? Sure.
Popps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 06:25 PM   #16
listopencil
[sarcasm]text[/sarcasm]
 
listopencil's Avatar
 
BOOM! Winner.

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The People's Republic Of California
Posts: 8,537

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Broncos FO
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
In retrospect? Sure.
I almost always get pissed ahead of time or blow up instantly. Rarely do I get angry in retrospect.
listopencil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 06:30 PM   #17
extralife
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,087
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
The real difference comes with QBs, there are no average QBs
This is probably the most true thing on this board in the last god knows how long. At that position, you're either a superstar or you're gone. There's nothing inbetween. No one would complain about having the Kyle Orton of left guards, but the Kyle Orton of QBs is a point of contention, and it's made that guy's career extremely unstable. If Tim Tebow isn't a superstar, it's a problem, and that problem will extend beyond himself.
extralife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 07:18 PM   #18
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 55,935

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

You must not have been here when Reeves selected Maddox. That was a **** storm. I sometimes wonder how crazy it would have been if we had the interwebs back then.

Oh, and that pick got Reeves fired.
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 07:23 PM   #19
FireFly
Ring of Famer
 
FireFly's Avatar
 
The window is open!

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by azbroncfan View Post
I have always said nothing in sports is more overrated than an NFL first round pick. In fact in my opinion is that the pick has more value in trading back and acquiring more picks than the actual player that is drafted. Good analysis Popps.
QFT

I would almost always trade back or trade for vets the premium placed on 1st is crazy - you're paying for HOPE not production
FireFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 07:37 PM   #20
bloodsunday
Ring of Famer
 
Nothing lasts forever.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dove Valley
Posts: 5,838

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

Man there are some picks on that list I would like to forget!

At the end of the day a draft pick is a draft pick. Where he was drafted doesn't matter beyond draft day. (I would say perhaps the lone exception is teams inside the top 10 because of the money involved -- especially for QBs). Even though everyone assumes he "projects" better to the NFL, I would argue Bradford is the biggest risk because they are going to have to give him $80M.

But I digress....

If we get a Pro Bowler and a couple of quality starters out of this draft, then it was a success. Period. It won't matter if Tebow is one of those guys are not. Winning and Losing is all you are judged on in the NFL. People that assume our whole draft is with Tebow are just stupid. If Tebow "busts", but Thomas, Beadles and Walton become staples of our new offense, who cares?
bloodsunday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #21
bloodsunday
Ring of Famer
 
Nothing lasts forever.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dove Valley
Posts: 5,838

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

In general if you go into a draft assuming your first round picks are going to play HUGE roles for your organization, you probably don't have a huge ceiling for the following season anyway.
bloodsunday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 07:49 PM   #22
Popps
It's so easy
 
Popps's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 29,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodsunday View Post
In general if you go into a draft assuming your first round picks are going to play HUGE roles for your organization, you probably don't have a huge ceiling for the following season anyway.
Certainly it's reasonable to expect a return on your investment.

But, look... if you play poker, and you get your money in with 88 against AA, you've got about a 20% chance of winning.

Are you going to be surprised or upset when those odds hold?

We've hit on about 30% of our 1st round draft picks, most of those being higher selections. I'm sure the league average for lower 1st round picks is close to ours over 20 years.


So, again... it's great to hope for the best. As fans, that's our job. But, if you want to get down to the math of this thing... Tebow has around a 30% chance of working out, if he's lucky. Same as any other #25 pick in the history of the league.
Popps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 07:57 PM   #23
bloodsunday
Ring of Famer
 
Nothing lasts forever.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dove Valley
Posts: 5,838

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
Certainly it's reasonable to expect a return on your investment.

But, look... if you play poker, and you get your money in with 88 against AA, you've got about a 20% chance of winning.

Are you going to be surprised or upset when those odds hold?

We've hit on about 30% of our 1st round draft picks, most of those being higher selections. I'm sure the league average for lower 1st round picks is close to ours over 20 years.


So, again... it's great to hope for the best. As fans, that's our job. But, if you want to get down to the math of this thing... Tebow has around a 30% chance of working out, if he's lucky. Same as any other #25 pick in the history of the league.
First of all, I think the league average is probably higher than ours -- there were some miserable picks there. I think that's ultimately why Shanahan couldn't get it together after after 1998. It also depends on how you define working out. Gerrard Warren was a disaster for Cleveland but has had a serviceable NFL career. All that said, I get your point.

But, since you brought up odds. If the the odds of every pick "working out" are 50/50 (theoretically), then the real problem with the Tebow picks is that we gave up 2 others to get it. We'd theoretically have odds that 1.5 of those guys "worked out" where right now our theoretical value is only .5.

Nonetheless, you shouldn't expect first round picks to contribute right away, ironically (because they are paid so much), quarterbacks in particular. If Tebow is our 2011 starter we'll have done well.
bloodsunday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 08:08 PM   #24
Tombstone RJ
Ring of Famer
 
Tombstone RJ's Avatar
 
Old School

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Tetons!
Posts: 22,309

Adopt-a-Bronco:
WorrellWilliams
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
Certainly it's reasonable to expect a return on your investment.

But, look... if you play poker, and you get your money in with 88 against AA, you've got about a 20% chance of winning.

Are you going to be surprised or upset when those odds hold?

We've hit on about 30% of our 1st round draft picks, most of those being higher selections. I'm sure the league average for lower 1st round picks is close to ours over 20 years.


So, again... it's great to hope for the best. As fans, that's our job. But, if you want to get down to the math of this thing... Tebow has around a 30% chance of working out, if he's lucky. Same as any other #25 pick in the history of the league.
Your sample base is way too small to make that claim. Your using the Broncos first round picks since 1990 which is not representative of the other 31 teams in the NFL.

The only way you make that kind of claim is by comparing the Broncos success rate with the success rate of the 31 other members of the NFL. I'm thinking it's closer to 50%.
Tombstone RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 08:22 PM   #25
broncosteven
Kranz Dictum
 
broncosteven's Avatar
 
AFC WEST CHAMPS Tough and Competent

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tranquility Base
Posts: 37,985

Adopt-a-Bronco:
CJ Anderson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
Certainly it's reasonable to expect a return on your investment.

But, look... if you play poker, and you get your money in with 88 against AA, you've got about a 20% chance of winning.

Are you going to be surprised or upset when those odds hold?

We've hit on about 30% of our 1st round draft picks, most of those being higher selections. I'm sure the league average for lower 1st round picks is close to ours over 20 years.


So, again... it's great to hope for the best. As fans, that's our job. But, if you want to get down to the math of this thing... Tebow has around a 30% chance of working out, if he's lucky. Same as any other #25 pick in the history of the league.
This is why when you hit on a 4th rounder who becomes a top 3-5 player at his position I prefer to keep him around rather than trade for picks that MAY work out.

BTW does your point go for Thomas who was picked at 22 or just TT?
broncosteven is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:39 PM.


Denver Broncos