Breaking Through Party Lines

[Hizaki]

Hello everyone,

I have been reading the Mane for about 4 years now, but never posted. For some odd reason I was unable to post from my existing account, so I had to create a brand new one just to join the discussion.

I have always enjoyed reading the football discussion (though the content deteriorated quite a bit the past few months), along with the politics forum, and decided to become a regular contributor here (WRP).

Even though I love football very much, I love my country even more and trying to inform people about our corrupt government and the current state of our country is of utmost importance to me.

So why am I posting after all the time spent lurking? Because it’s getting unbearable to watch most on here argue about trivial subjects and getting caught up in the false left-right paradigm. There are a few posters who have a pretty good idea about what’s going on in the US right now: who in particular are ruining this nation, what methods they use to achieve their goals and what changes need to be made to restore our country to its former greatness.

The biggest problem I see is that instead of focusing on real problems, instead of identifying our enemies and coming up with viable solutions to fix the mess we are in, we keep pointing fingers at each other. Liberals hate Republicans and vice versa. Guess what? Both parties suck and neither has YOUR interest at heart. Both in their current state expand government, take away our freedom and rights, destroy the middle class, pursue senseless, incredibly expensive wars and bankrupt our country through insane bailouts. Everything is exactly the same now as it was during the Bush-years except things happen at a more accelerated pace. It's time to forget about party, party ideals and time to start thinking for ourselves.

I will try to contribute to the discussion here with quality material and thought provoking subjects. My goal is to simply get some people thinking outside of party-lines, to help people understand how and why the media and our government lie to us and most importantly to make the average Joe/Jane realize that he/she can change the course we are on by simply getting more involved.

As a final note, I understand the above might sound self-righteous to some readers, but I assure you that is not the case. I think we are obligated to “work” in our community and help each other through these difficult times any way we can. We have a great group of people posting here and I am sure I’ll have a great time.

Cheers,

H

[Garcia Bronco]

Indeed. Republicans and Democrats are interested in two thing:

Telling you to be affraid of it, and who to blame for it.

[JJJ]

Bring it on. We certainly could use some fresh views in here.

[ghwk]

You will be reviled and beaten down. Your way has been tried before but I wish you luck anyway. Even with a neutral start your threads will unfortunatly become unrecognizable from the others like them as maners bolt on false arguements and mistruth's. All well intended threads end up like frankenstein here.

[Bronx33]

Goodluck....

[cutthemdown]

Your bolded statement comes off like it's fact just because you say it is. That isn't coming from the middle ground that's saying this is how it is and soon I will prove it all to you with my great and unbiased approach to posting.

I feel like I have tons of freedom and rights. Wars sometimes need to be fought regardless of cost in money. Show the stats that prove the middle class has shrunk? There may be a bigger gap between the middle and the high, but still the vast majority of America is middle class.

Also America is free with the money. It's almost an obligation because the world uses the dollar as the reserve currency. With being the reserve currency you get tons of perks. We are probably only country that can print money, give it to another country, spend it, and still not have dollar drop significantly. It drops but not really in relation to how much more of them are printed. Try that with the Euro and see what happens.

Still though welcome to the board and I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

[bpc]

Welcome to the board.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hizaki

Guess what? Both parties suck and neither has YOUR interest at heart. Both in their current state expand government, take away our freedom and rights, destroy the middle class, pursue senseless, incredibly expensive wars and bankrupt our country through insane bailouts.

Can't deny the evidence that would support all of the above.

Welcome to our island!

[Hizaki]

First of all, thank you for the warm welcome; I expected it to be much rougher. Before I forget, Chris (bpc) you recently posted an excellent, in-depth and lengthy response to a thread here in WRP. It was great reading. I really wish you would go back to your old ways on the football discussion forum because you used to be one of my favorite posters to read. Just a thought.

Now a quick response to cutthem. The bolded statements are not facts just because I say so. They are the truth and anyone who pays good attention knows it. I’ll try to back up my statement here:

Expanding government: We are slowly creeping our way towards fascism. Government owned auto industry, soon health care and possibly energy?

Taking away our freedom: The “Patriot” Act; constant attacks on the second amendment; proposed airport naked body scanners for a specific example.

Destroying the middle class: Eroding our manufacturing base, thus destroying many middleclass families; overregulation of small and medium size businesses (no incentives to open or operate a business).

Senseless wars: Vietnam; now the Middle East (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, soon Iran).
We are not there to fight terrorism. Let’s not kid ourselves. Actually it is funny because we are the ones responsible for most of the terrorism against us. Our imperialist, world-policing ways made the rest of the world hate us, especially the ME (South America as well, which we exploited beyond your wildest imagination). Now I know I might be labeled unpatriotic for not blindly following what our government and media feed us, but if you read up on our history then you know that the founding fathers warned us to always be cautious with our government. It is our right and duty to question what the politicians (who are supposed to represent us) in Washington do. A good citizen will never take the government for granted and will always have a cautious approach towards it.

Insane bailouts: Too big to fail? Who are they kidding? In a capitalist, free-market society any insolvent business needs to fail, without any exceptions. Too bad Goldman Sachs didn’t get the memo.

This is why I said it’s crucial to think outside of party ideology in order to successfully discuss these topics. A Republican will cheer me on when I point to the Obama administration’s insane spending and their relentless efforts of nudging this country towards fascism. However, they will get butthurt when I point to the fact that the “Patriot” Act is one of the most unconstitutional pieces of legislation ever to get through Congress. On the contrary, a Democrat will nod approvingly when I bash Bush’s murderous wars and his arrogance, but be on the defensive when I discuss how insane government run healthcare really is.

All I ask is to have an open mind and don't label each other. The discussions will be much more constructive that way.

[JJJ]

Originally Posted by Hizaki

First of all, thank you for the warm welcome; I expected it to be much rougher. Before I forget, Chris (bpc) you recently posted an excellent, in-depth and lengthy response to a thread here in WRP. It was great reading. I really wish you would go back to your old ways on the football discussion forum because you used to be one of my favorite posters to read. Just a thought.

Now a quick response to cutthem. The bolded statements are not facts just because I say so. They are the truth and anyone who pays good attention knows it. I’ll try to back up my statement here:

Expanding government: We are slowly creeping our way towards fascism. Government owned auto industry, soon health care and possibly energy?

Taking away our freedom: The “Patriot” Act; constant attacks on the second amendment; proposed airport naked body scanners for a specific example.

Destroying the middle class: Eroding our manufacturing base, thus destroying many middleclass families; overregulation of small and medium size businesses (no incentives to open or operate a business).

Senseless wars: Vietnam; now the Middle East (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, soon Iran).
We are not there to fight terrorism. Let’s not kid ourselves. Actually it is funny because we are the ones responsible for most of the terrorism against us. Our imperialist, world-policing ways made the rest of the world hate us, especially the ME (South America as well, which we exploited beyond your wildest imagination). Now I know I might be labeled unpatriotic for not blindly following what our government and media feed us, but if you read up on our history then you know that the founding fathers warned us to always be cautious with our government. It is our right and duty to question what the politicians (who are supposed to represent us) in Washington do. A good citizen will never take the government for granted and will always have a cautious approach towards it.

Insane bailouts: Too big to fail? Who are they kidding? In a capitalist, free-market society any insolvent business needs to fail, without any exceptions. Too bad Goldman Sachs didn’t get the memo.

This is why I said it’s crucial to think outside of party ideology in order to successfully discuss these topics. A Republican will cheer me on when I point to the Obama administration’s insane spending and their relentless efforts of nudging this country towards fascism. However, they will get butthurt when I point to the fact that the “Patriot” Act is one of the most unconstitutional pieces of legislation ever to get through Congress. On the contrary, a Democrat will nod approvingly when I bash Bush’s murderous wars and his arrogance, but be on the defensive when I discuss how insane government run healthcare really is.

All I ask is to have an open mind and don't label each other. The discussions will be much more constructive that way.

The goal of Vietnam was not senseless and was completely consistent with American ideals.

Communism killed well over 100m people or 2793 people every single day of the 20th century. Most being starved or worked to death.

Not fighting it would be like not fighting AIDS. A lot more people would die if you did nothing.

How we executed it perhaps was a bit senseless.

Nothing senseless about Afghanistan or drones into Pakistan. Clear purpose and reason for being there.

You will always have an argument for Iraq. End result will be the first true democracy in the middle east outside of Israel though.

[barryr]

What's interesting is how somany politicans, mostly democrats, claim to worry about the middle class, yet there hasn't been much of one for years. If you belong to a union or a wealthy lobbyist(which most are)you will get breaks from this admin. Otherwsise, you will ned up paying more in taxes one way or the other. This is fair and decent?

Communists killed millions even after the U.S. left Vietnam and Cambodia, yet you won't hear too many liberals interested in talking about that.

The Patriot Act was supposedly so bad and would take away everyone's rights, yet I have yet to see whose rights have been violated. Besides, not only did democrats vote for it, Obama has yet to get rid of it, so must not be that bad afterall.

We were told, even by Obama himself, the surge wouldn't work, but it did and notice how the media left once the surge was working and didn't have daily death numbers to report.

Right now, we have soldiers being killed in Afghanistan, yet the media has mostly ignored that. The liberal media doesn't mind wars as long as it's a democrat in charge of it. There was little coverage when Clinton got our troops involved in Haiti and Kosovo and we lost soldiers then too. But since it was a democrat making the decision, the hand-wringing by liberals in the media was suddenly stopped.

[JJJ]

Originally Posted by barryr

What's interesting is how somany politicans, mostly democrats, claim to worry about the middle class, yet there hasn't been much of one for years. If you belong to a union or a wealthy lobbyist(which most are)you will get breaks from this admin. Otherwsise, you will ned up paying more in taxes one way or the other. This is fair and decent?

Communists killed millions even after the U.S. left Vietnam and Cambodia, yet you won't hear too many liberals interested in talking about that.

The Patriot Act was supposedly so bad and would take away everyone's rights, yet I have yet to see whose rights have been violated. Besides, not only did democrats vote for it, Obama has yet to get rid of it, so must not be that bad afterall.

We were told, even by Obama himself, the surge wouldn't work, but it did and notice how the media left once the surge was working and didn't have daily death numbers to report.

Right now, we have soldiers being killed in Afghanistan, yet the media has mostly ignored that. The liberal media doesn't mind wars as long as it's a democrat in charge of it. There was little coverage when Clinton got our troops involved in Haiti and Kosovo and we lost soldiers then too. But since it was a democrat making the decision, the hand-wringing by liberals in the media was suddenly stopped.

Yep, somehow I missed all those Khmer Rouge protests. And so many blocked streets from those Saddam and Sudan protests that I could hardly get to work.

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by JJJ

Yep, somehow I missed all those Khmer Rouge protests. And so many blocked streets from those Saddam and Sudan protests that I could hardly get to work.

The protests were supressed by rational means went to starbucks and bought some more coffee.

[Hizaki]

Originally Posted by JJJ

The goal of Vietnam was not senseless and was completely consistent with American ideals.

If by "American ideals" you mean policing the world, imposing our will on the weak and murdering millions then yes

Look, I am not arguing for communism. I loath the very idea of it. It is a failed system, an evil that has brought great suffering on many parts of the world. I should know, since I am from the Eastern Bloc and lived there until I was in my very late teens.

But the idea that Vietnam is by any means justified is one that only exist in the mind of most Americans; ones who are blind to the facts and the outside world. This is not meant as a derogatory comment, so please don't take it that way. What I am trying to say is that only people born and raised here and indoctrinated in our war-mongering ways could justify horrors like we caused there. There was absolutely no reason for us and the French for that matter, to occupy Vietnam, regardless of how we feared the spread of communism. Our job is not to police the world, but to take care of our own and sustain a strong, viable economy, a strong industrial base and market along with a great national defense system (defense is the key word here).

Over 60,000 of our men had to die basically for nothing, along with millions of innocent Vietnamese civilians (numbers range from 1 to 7 million 1). All those lives lost cannot ever be justified.

1
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

[JJJ]

Originally Posted by Hizaki

If by "American ideals" you mean policing the world, imposing our will on the weak and murdering millions then yes

Look, I am not arguing for communism. I loath the very idea of it. It is a failed system, an evil that has brought great suffering on many parts of the world. I should know, since I am from the Eastern Bloc and lived there until I was in my very late teens.

But the idea that Vietnam is by any means justified is one that only exist in the mind of most Americans; ones who are blind to the facts and the outside world. This is not meant as a derogatory comment, so please don't take it that way. What I am trying to say is that only people born and raised here and indoctrinated in our war-mongering ways could justify horrors like we caused there. There was absolutely no reason for us and the French for that matter, to occupy Vietnam, regardless of how we feared the spread of communism. Our job is not to police the world, but to take care of our own and sustain a strong, viable economy, a strong industrial base and market along with a great national defense system (defense is the key word here).

Over 60,000 of our men had to die basically for nothing, along with millions of innocent Vietnamese civilians (numbers range from 1 to 7 million 1). All those lives lost cannot ever be justified.

1
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

No, I mean opposing the murdering of the equivilent of a 9/11 attack every single day of every single year of the 20th century. If you think about the number it is simply staggering.

A line in the sand was drawn in Vietnam. We may have lost there but our presence no doubt slowed down the communist wave that was spreading in southeast Asia. That wave would have killed far more than the numbers lost during the conflict, of that I am positively sure. How many more countries would have fallen under Moaist and Stalinist dictatorships had we not actively opposed it and how many tens of millions more would have died? Does the bully stop hitting the kid who doesn't fight back?

It is pretty naive to believe we caused all the horrors in Vietnam. There were plenty of horrors in store for it had we not been there at all. See Cambodia for an idea of that. Ho Chih Minh would have followed the Moa doctrine of death in a quite disciplined way I am sure.

The barbaric forms of Communism that existed at that time had to be opposed. Fighting such evil is always justified.

Our troops definitely did not die for nothing in Vietnam. The only thing ever worth fighting for is liberty and freedom. JFK said "We will pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and success of liberty." This was the ideals I was speaking of.

The fact you use such language as "war-mongering ways" and "imposing our will to kill millions" indicates to me your thought provoking contributions could use a little more study. Your isolationist utopia theory in the long run would put the citizens of the US at much more risk. How many times do we have to learn that lesson?

With your East Block upbringing you do realize you are only able to write this freely today because America resisted communism on all fronts?

[cutthemdown]

Vietnam was a just war that was not fought correctly. Still though they would be better off today had we succeeded there.

What about Korea? Just or not? I'm sure S Koreans pretty happy that the USA and other UN troops fought it out to protect them from the communist North. Also this is unrelated but what is it with the North always being the communists?

You can go all the way back to the Mexican American war, the Spanish American war, and see plenty of examples where the USA was basically just making excuses to attack and take land. We are powerful pretty much because we were bullies.

Now everyone wants to pretend we used to be pure and have lost our way. It's just not the case. America has always carried a big stick.

[mhgaffney]

Hizaki,

Well you can already see the sort of idiots you are up against in here.

Forty years later they still don't have a clue about Viet Nam -- what it was really all about. They still mouth the empty cliches and platitudes about freedom.

I call em knee jerks... for a reason. It's exactly what they are.

MHG

[JJJ]

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

Hizaki,

Well you can already see the sort of idiots you are up against in here.

Forty years later they still don't have a clue about Viet Nam -- what it was really all about. They still mouth the empty cliches and platitudes about freedom.

I call em knee jerks... for a reason. It's exactly what they are.

MHG

100m people dead at the hands of communism, another 50m at the hands of fascism and all you talk about is your silly conspiracy theories.

There is no mystery why we were in Vietnam and we all know we didn't fight the cold war like a bunch of choir boys.

Our "occupied" territories of Germany, Japan, and South Korea have become the the 2nd, 4th, and 15th largest economies in the world. Really horrible to be under the boot of the US isn't it?

Way to keep things in perspective.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Vietnam was a just war that was not fought correctly. Still though they would be better off today had we succeeded there.

Gotta love that revisionist history from the Bush Youth who (a) were not there and (b) aren't old enough to remember the war.

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Gotta love that revisionist history from the Bush Youth who (a) were not there and (b) aren't old enough to remember the war.

All you gotta do is look at S Korea. That could be Vietnam right now. Certainly everyone can agree S Korea better off then N Korea right. It's safe to assume same thing would have happened had we won in Vietnam. The people there would be prospering under capitalism instead of being poor.

[Hizaki]

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

Hizaki,

Well you can already see the sort of idiots you are up against in here.

Forty years later they still don't have a clue about Viet Nam -- what it was really all about. They still mouth the empty cliches and platitudes about freedom.

I call em knee jerks... for a reason. It's exactly what they are.

MHG

Well, I have been lurking and reading the forum for close to 4 years now, so I understand the mindset and political alignment of almost every poster here. I don't mind that some people don't agree with me, I just hope I can open some eyes. If I get only 1 person, Liberal, Conservative or Independent, to wake up to all the lies that are fed to us and all the fraud that we are subject to then I consider my involvement a success.

[Hizaki]

Originally Posted by JJJ

No, I mean opposing the murdering of the equivilent of a 9/11 attack every single day of every single year of the 20th century. If you think about the number it is simply staggering.

JJJ, you are correct in your notion that communism is a great evil; however, you make the mistake of thinking that we must eradicate it. That is not our job and I think that is where we disagree. We cannot police the world because in the process we will gather many enemies and subject ourselves to terrorism, as is the case today.

You also mentioned that I am an isolationist. That is just not true. I think we should have a very aggressive foreign trade policy and we should trade and exchange goods with as many nations as possible. We could make lots of friends this way, and very few enemies. Now I know this might be a “utopian” way of looking at things, but I don’t believe it is that far fetched.

I will try to give a quick example why interfering in other’s business is just not a sound policy.

Imagine that a new political system is gaining foothold in Northern America that is very radical and is not well accepted in Europe. Now let’s say the US takes on this new political identify and is minding its’ own business. In this scenario the US is also a much smaller nation and not very powerful. Now imagine there is this single mighty nation in Europe that decides that this new political system is threatening to its ideals and its own imperialist agendas and decides to take matters into its own hands. It stages an attack on its own military base nearby (i.e. Gulf of Tonkin) and declares war on the US, stating that the spread of this new, radical political movement has to be stopped. Fighting ensues, millions die during the next decade, amongst them many of our family members (friends, parents, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters) and the mighty nation pulls out in defeat, leaving the rubble behind. How would you feel? Would you feel the war was vindicated if you lost a child? How about if you lost your only brother?

If you lost everything, would you grow hatred towards the country that caused the deaths? Would you “understand”? Because that is exactly what’s going on right now and why Americans are loathed everywhere: from Europe, to the Middle East, from the Far East to Africa as well as South and Central America. We need to change this perception and the best way to do it is to end the wars, pull our forces out, leave our bases in the 135 or so countries we currently are occupying and come home. Then fix our economy, re-establish a manufacturing base, kick the crooks out of Washington, go back to the principles of our Constitution and have a sound defense system in place.

[Rohirrim]

Have you ever been to Versailles?

[Hizaki]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Have you ever been to Versailles?

Was that directed at me Roh? If yes, then no I have not been to Versailles. Why you ask if you don't mind me asking?

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Hizaki

Was that directed at me Roh? If yes, then no I have not been to Versailles. Why you ask if you don't mind me asking?

Go there. Stroll the grounds. It's all one needs to know about politics.