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Old 01-20-2010, 10:09 AM   #1
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Default Alright, what went wrong?

Okay, Let me first say that I'm on the pro-Josh bandwagon, but I have a question for everyone on the "screw Josh" bandwagon.

Most of the criticism I've heard about Josh is about his personality; that his abrasive, brash and arrogant ways led to the Cutler fiasco, which was followed by any number of fiascos, Marshall, Nolan, etc.

Another big hit on him was how he cared too much about the Patriot game, how he let it become his Super Bowl, and then eased off the pedal.

If I'm missing anything, please tell me what.

I don't want this to be a thread where people talk about if McDaniels is a good or bad coach, or if the season was satisfactory or not(A man can dream, right?). What I want to hear is theories about why we went 2-8 down the stretch, because I haven't heard any from the Anti-Josh camp. My personal theory is that Nolan and McDaniels were scheming their way to victory in the first 6 games, and then ran out of tricks in the bag, and couldn't hack coaching normally, but that's a wildly simplistic view. The team stopped playing as well, both on offence and on defence.

Why did we go 2-8? Try to avoid letting your bias show, and give me a good answer. What went wrong?
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:19 AM   #2
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Josh McDaniels is what went wrong!

I would say it was a combination of injury, scheme getting figured out on defense, unproductive offense, and lack of talent. I do not think there are many coaches that would have done a lot better this year.

I am anti-McD but I don't want him fired for going 8-8 and I have never been in these 2-8 arguments. Me wanting him fired has to do with how he deals with players and other issues. That and the fact that I would love a normal NFL power structure. This crap with the coach being in full control has not been successful in this league for a while now. Our coach not only is in full control, he also game plans and calls the offensive plays. That is a lot to take on. I do not think this team will be successful with the current way we run things. I know this probably isn't what you want as a response but I figured I would show where I am coming from with the anti-McD stuff.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:22 AM   #3
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We went 2-8 cause McDaniels is dumb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Denver_Broncos_season

Seriously though - You come off the bye, you get handled by two teams that simply pile drive people (BAL and PIT) and after that the gig was up.

Teams started trying to overpower the defense. They couldn't weather the storm.

On the other side of the ball - you can only run so many screen passes before it catches up to you. No deep threat hinders the run game, and Harris getting hurt doesn't help you close.

Basically you lose a bit of steam on the bye, you have two teams in back-back weeks that expose your weaknesses - and it snowballs.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:27 AM   #4
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Okay, Let me first say that I'm on the pro-Josh bandwagon, but I have a question for everyone on the "screw Josh" bandwagon.

Most of the criticism I've heard about Josh is about his personality; that his abrasive, brash and arrogant ways led to the Cutler fiasco, which was followed by any number of fiascos, Marshall, Nolan, etc.

Another big hit on him was how he cared too much about the Patriot game, how he let it become his Super Bowl, and then eased off the pedal.

If I'm missing anything, please tell me what.

I don't want this to be a thread where people talk about if McDaniels is a good or bad coach, or if the season was satisfactory or not(A man can dream, right?). What I want to hear is theories about why we went 2-8 down the stretch, because I haven't heard any from the Anti-Josh camp. My personal theory is that Nolan and McDaniels were scheming their way to victory in the first 6 games, and then ran out of tricks in the bag, and couldn't hack coaching normally, but that's a wildly simplistic view. The team stopped playing as well, both on offence and on defence.

Why did we go 2-8? Try to avoid letting your bias show, and give me a good answer. What went wrong?
I agree with this. Also, I think we had some pretty lucky breaks in the first 6 games, which is part of football but it partially explains the two seperate halves of the season. I think it ultimately comes down to not having the type of talent that is ideal fits for the schemes we were running, but on defense the D-line overachieved for as long as it could.
I think the ultra conservative O we ran worked well for when the D-line was overachieving and the defense dominating, but when it started to faid our offense could not compensate and we were done.

Last edited by Gob; 01-20-2010 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:27 AM   #5
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We went 2-8 cause McDaniels is dumb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Denver_Broncos_season

Seriously though - You come off the bye, you get handled by two teams that simply pile drive people (BAL and PIT) and after that the gig was up.

Teams started trying to overpower the defense. They couldn't weather the storm.

On the other side of the ball - you can only run so many screen passes before it catches up to you. No deep threat hinders the run game, and Harris getting hurt doesn't help you close.

Basically you lose a bit of steam on the bye, you have two teams in back-back weeks that expose your weaknesses - and it snowballs.
So, on offence, we just ran out of innovation and people got our screen pass brilliance figured out...And on defence people just started ramming it down our throat?

What I'm trying to get at here is that people are blaming McDaniels for everything, without pointing to anything ON the field. Sure, McDaniels ****ed up off the field a fair amount...Tell me how he ****ed up on it.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:34 AM   #6
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So, on offence, we just ran out of innovation and people got our screen pass brilliance figured out...And on defence people just started ramming it down our throat?

What I'm trying to get at here is that people are blaming McDaniels for everything, without pointing to anything ON the field. Sure, McDaniels ****ed up off the field a fair amount...Tell me how he ****ed up on it.
He wasn't able to pull a pro-bowl LG, C, RT and NT out of his ass.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:34 AM   #7
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He stepped on Chris Harris's toe, took a tire iron to Russ Hochstein, and made Weigmann old. Also, he didn't let Hillis get enough 2 yard runs.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:35 AM   #8
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Tell me how he ****ed up on it.
Well, it was him getting rid of Cutler, his playcalling, and his unwillingness to fix the lines that created an offensive regression and allowed for the d-line to break apart easily. We had 5 picks in the first two rounds. We spent loads in FA. We didn't spend many of those resources on either line.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:36 AM   #9
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Well, it was him getting rid of Cutler, his playcalling, and his unwillingness to fix the lines that created an offensive regression and allowed for the d-line to break apart easily. We had 5 picks in the first two rounds. We spent loads in FA. We didn't spend many of those resources on either line.
So, you're of the opinion that the problems that caused us to go 2-8 were there the whole time? Nothing changed after 6 games to lead to the terrible end?
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:37 AM   #10
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Seems to me that the Ravens discovered that Wigman and Hamilton could not hold up against big NTs or DTs who opened lanes for the LBs to fire in. With a rookie RB learning to block in the NFL, he was susceptible to the delayed rush by the MLBs, which further shortened the time for Orton to find the primary target let alone do his progressions. Secondly, the game plans did not call for long passes beyond the quick (compensating) passes which were used to cover for the weak Oline's middle. Moreover, since the bubbles and quicks were compensating for the Oline, the Ds understood that they did not have to cover deep balls. Thirdly, Harris' replacement - Polumbus - could not actually contain the speed rushers from his side of the line. Fourth, Clady was being asked to help in the compensation which left him against the speed rushers on his side alone. He did well, but there were more breakdowns than usual this year, but he was still good. Fifth, Buck was hurt enough that it broke the one-two punch significantly. Sixth, Moreno got nearly 1000 yards this year, but the Oline couldnt move a pile of empty boxes by the 13th game or so. Moreno was tackled behind the LOS so much that one thought the other team had a pipeline into the huddle and knew just what play was being called. (I often wondered whether someone on that Oline was giving a "tell".) Simms proved ineffective, probably due to his lack of playing time over the previous two years, and the lack of prep time since Orton was learning the O himself and got most of the prep time.

Seventh, the D started to get hurt. Dawkins hurt his ankle, People were getting banged up, but htey never quit until the last game.

Heroic moments were seen throughout the season. We should remember those as well as the failures......
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:37 AM   #11
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When did this whole "our season went south because Josh was too happy to beat the Patriots" routine start? Who squatted over the forum and dropped this latest turd?

Does this mean we're done with the Hillis conspiracy?
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:37 AM   #12
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So, on offence, we just ran out of innovation and people got our screen pass brilliance figured out...And on defence people just started ramming it down our throat?

What I'm trying to get at here is that people are blaming McDaniels for everything, without pointing to anything ON the field. Sure, McDaniels ****ed up off the field a fair amount...Tell me how he ****ed up on it.
He can be blamed for turmoil with personnel and having a lousy draft. He can be blamed for emasculating the offense by replacing Cutler with Orton and turning a blind eye to Royal, Scheffler, and Hillis.

I don't blame him for the defense being over matched (although I wonder how much credit Nolan should get).
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:38 AM   #13
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So, on offence, we just ran out of innovation and people got our screen pass brilliance figured out...And on defence people just started ramming it down our throat?

What I'm trying to get at here is that people are blaming McDaniels for everything, without pointing to anything ON the field. Sure, McDaniels ****ed up off the field a fair amount...Tell me how he ****ed up on it.
As people like to remind me during other arguments, I am not an insider and don't know what happens behind the scenes. The only thing I can judge head coaches on is the product they put on the field and the changes they make in the offseason. I was ok with Shanny going because of his recent mediocre records, and because he would either dump a good DC because his defense faided after compensating for the offense all season (Coyer) or would keep the same horrible DC who never made any improvement (you know), but throughout all of it he didn't really ever commit to throwing more resources to the D-line. Since I don't see why I should judge McDaniels by different standards, I am not happy with this season.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:39 AM   #14
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In the games we won we handled the battles at the line of scrimmage on offense and defense. In the games we lost, we didn't.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:40 AM   #15
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On offense what happened was that we stopped being innovative. Before the bye week we had showed up to each game with a tailor made game plan and new formations and styles to match our opponent and it worked. For some reason we came into the Baltimore game with a plan that was incredibly poorly concieved, and when Baltimore completely broke the screen we had nothing. From there on in the only game we really came with something innovative was the Redskins game where we challenged what was supposed to be their strength and it worked.
In many of the games we came in with stuff that looked entirely vanilla, we would run exclusively out of heavy multi TE sets, we would line up without a runningback on many passing plays, we ended up with a gameplan that lead to 50% of our passes going to Marshall.

On defense we stopped doing things that worked. The one play that really got to the Chargers more than anything else when we beat them early was the delayed blitz in the middle, Rivers tends to drop deep and then step up when he feels the pressure, but blitzing in the middle takes away that option and makes him nervous. For some reason we didn't blitz in the middle at all in the 2nd game.
Against the Raiders we didn't blitz nearly as much as you would think against a team that gave up 8 sacks to the Redskins the previous week. Instead we sat back and dared them to pass the ball and they did.
The rotation on the defensive front that worked so well early on always having people who could rush on passing downs and people who could stop the run on early downs failed, we ended up with a lot of mismatches and people would take advantage of knowing what we were vulnerable to.

One big thing that affected both sides of the ball late were penalties. In the first 6 games we took very few penalties, but we took double digit penalties in several games during the slide. Many of them stupid penalties, holdings that weren't necesary, offsides, false starts, things that shouldn't happen.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:40 AM   #16
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Seems to me that the Ravens discovered that Wigman and Hamilton could not hold up against big NTs or DTs who opened lanes for the LBs to fire in. With a rookie RB learning to block in the NFL, he was susceptible to the delayed rush by the MLBs, which further shortened the time for Orton to find the primary target let alone do his progressions. Secondly, the game plans did not call for long passes beyond the quick (compensating) passes which were used to cover for the weak Oline's middle. Moreover, since the bubbles and quicks were compensating for the Oline, the Ds understood that they did not have to cover deep balls. Thirdly, Harris' replacement - Polumbus - could not actually contain the speed rushers from his side of the line. Fourth, Clady was being asked to help in the compensation which left him against the speed rushers on his side alone. He did well, but there were more breakdowns than usual this year, but he was still good. Fifth, Buck was hurt enough that it broke the one-two punch significantly. Sixth, Moreno got nearly 1000 yards this year, but the Oline couldnt move a pile of empty boxes by the 13th game or so. Moreno was tackled behind the LOS so much that one thought the other team had a pipeline into the huddle and knew just what play was being called. (I often wondered whether someone on that Oline was giving a "tell".) Simms proved ineffective, probably due to his lack of playing time over the previous two years, and the lack of prep time since Orton was learning the O himself and got most of the prep time.

Seventh, the D started to get hurt. Dawkins hurt his ankle, People were getting banged up, but htey never quit until the last game.

Heroic moments were seen throughout the season. We should remember those as well as the failures......
That's it in a nutshell.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:41 AM   #17
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He can be blamed for turmoil with personnel and having a lousy draft. He can be blamed for emasculating the offense by replacing Cutler with Orton and turning a blind eye to Royal, Scheffler, and Hillis.

I don't blame him for the defense being over matched (although I wonder how much credit Nolan should get).
So, the consensus seems to be forming that the things that lead to the 2-8 ending happened in the offseason, right? Nothing changed after 6 games, we just got lucky for the first 6 games. Bad team from the start. McDaniels sucks as a GM and a manager of people, is this the general idea?
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:46 AM   #18
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So, you're of the opinion that the problems that caused us to go 2-8 were there the whole time? Nothing changed after 6 games to lead to the terrible end?
Yup. I think the pass blocking was bad because of injury and QB but the run problems and d-line problems have been here for years.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:48 AM   #19
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Seems to me that the Ravens discovered that Wigman and Hamilton could not hold up against big NTs or DTs who opened lanes for the LBs to fire in. With a rookie RB learning to block in the NFL, he was susceptible to the delayed rush by the MLBs, which further shortened the time for Orton to find the primary target let alone do his progressions. Secondly, the game plans did not call for long passes beyond the quick (compensating) passes which were used to cover for the weak Oline's middle. Moreover, since the bubbles and quicks were compensating for the Oline, the Ds understood that they did not have to cover deep balls. Thirdly, Harris' replacement - Polumbus - could not actually contain the speed rushers from his side of the line. Fourth, Clady was being asked to help in the compensation which left him against the speed rushers on his side alone. He did well, but there were more breakdowns than usual this year, but he was still good. Fifth, Buck was hurt enough that it broke the one-two punch significantly. Sixth, Moreno got nearly 1000 yards this year, but the Oline couldnt move a pile of empty boxes by the 13th game or so. Moreno was tackled behind the LOS so much that one thought the other team had a pipeline into the huddle and knew just what play was being called. (I often wondered whether someone on that Oline was giving a "tell".) Simms proved ineffective, probably due to his lack of playing time over the previous two years, and the lack of prep time since Orton was learning the O himself and got most of the prep time.

Seventh, the D started to get hurt. Dawkins hurt his ankle, People were getting banged up, but htey never quit until the last game.

Heroic moments were seen throughout the season. We should remember those as well as the failures......
Can we put this on the front page? Maybe make it like one of those disclaimers you have to scroll through and read before you can sign in?
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:49 AM   #20
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So, the consensus seems to be forming that the things that lead to the 2-8 ending happened in the offseason, right? Nothing changed after 6 games, we just got lucky for the first 6 games. Bad team from the start. McDaniels sucks as a GM and a manager of people, is this the general idea?
Nolan was the only reason the Broncos won a single game. It seemed to me that the few times they showed Nolan on TV sitting up in the booth after the sixth game, he looked kind of groggy. I am convinced the McDaniels started drugging Nolan after that sixth game. I am further convinced that Belichick supplied the drugs. Plus I have no doubt, NO DOUBT, that they might have tampered with his headset so that everything he said WAS ACTUALLY FUNNELED STRAIGHT TO JOSH! and then Josh was able to change the play before it got to the field. I'm pretty sure all the evidence points to that. So, Parcells going after Nolan wasn't tampering...

IT WAS AN INTERVENTION INTENDED TO SAVE HIS LIFE!!!

Josh is truly evil.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:50 AM   #21
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When did this whole "our season went south because Josh was too happy to beat the Patriots" routine start? Who squatted over the forum and dropped this latest turd?

Does this mean we're done with the Hillis conspiracy?
Sure. Lets talk about the regression of each of the 2008 Broncos offensive players as well as the 2009 draft choices, and how none of it has anything to do with McDaniels.

Last edited by Gob; 01-20-2010 at 10:52 AM..
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:53 AM   #22
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So, the consensus seems to be forming that the things that lead to the 2-8 ending happened in the offseason, right? Nothing changed after 6 games, we just got lucky for the first 6 games. Bad team from the start. McDaniels sucks as a GM and a manager of people, is this the general idea?
The entire thing is his responsibility. And of course offseason moves have an impact on in-season play. I was giving the guy props during the fast start. I simply thinks he is taking a 'scorched earth' strategy, which I don't think is helpful. By the beginning of the '10 season, he will have run Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler out of town. I don't think that is moving in the right direction (regardless of the awful season Cutler had).
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:55 AM   #23
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Sure. Lets talk about the progression of each of the 2009 Broncos defensive players, and how none of it has anything to do with McDaniels.
I edited your quote. Just for kicks.

But seriously, this isn't what I want, guys. No pointing fingers or defending McDaniels. Don't talk about how poorly Hillis did this year. What went wrong this year? Did anything change after 6 games? If so, what? If not, how did we win 6 straight?

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The entire thing is his responsibility. And of course offseason moves have an impact on in-season play. I was giving the guy props during the fast start. I simply thinks he is taking a 'scorched earth' strategy, which I don't think is helpful. By the beginning of the '10 season, he will have run Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler out of town. I don't think that is moving in the right direction (regardless of the awful season Cutler had).
I'm not trying to defend McDaniels! I'm trying to get people to form coherent, well thought through arguments, rather than just partisan bickering.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:03 AM   #24
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If not, how did we win 6 straight?
Bengals - Miracle halfcourt shot at the buzzer
Browns - They're the Browns
Faiders - JaMucus played the entire game
Cowgirls - Defense pitches shutout last 3 quarters
Pats - Defense pitches shutout in second half
Chuggers - Royal sparks team with 2 return TD's
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:03 AM   #25
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The entire thing is his responsibility. And of course offseason moves have an impact on in-season play. I was giving the guy props during the fast start. I simply thinks he is taking a 'scorched earth' strategy, which I don't think is helpful. By the beginning of the '10 season, he will have run Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler out of town. I don't think that is moving in the right direction (regardless of the awful season Cutler had).
Holy ****, people still think he ran Cutler out of town? I dont' understand how everyone just ignores the fact that he wanted to be traded before "Cassell-gate" even happened. Marshall wanted out of Denver before then too...he actually seems to get along well with McDaniels.

Scheffler has a vajayjay, I would welcome running him out of town.

Sorry to derail your thread KI, back on track!
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