Afl-cio predicts EFCA to pass early this year.

[peacepipe]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_418871.html

"The president fully supports the Employee Free Choice Act, the Vice President fully supports the Employee Free Choice Act, a vast majority of the members of the House support the Employee Free Choice Act, a vast majority of the people of the Senate support the Employee Free Choice Act. And I think we are going to have the Employee Free Choice Act despite the determined efforts of the Republican Party..."

Passing EFCA would be a huge win for the american worker.

[Bronx33]

Every coin has another side

[yavoon]

it would be a devastating loss for the american worker, the american economy, and american prosperity. saying the morbidly euphamistically named employee free choice act would be positive to the american worker shows total ignorance of any economic or global consideration.

there's a reason unions are disappearing in the private sector, they are devastating to american competitiveness. the idea that you can extort money from a corporation under threat of bankrupting it with strikes and this is a good back and forth has proved to be economic lunacy. public unions only survive by stealing taxpayer money.

[peacepipe]

Bogus argument, having personally gone through the process of trying to unionize a shop.

[peacepipe]

Originally Posted by yavoon

it would be a devastating loss for the american worker, the american economy, and american prosperity. saying the morbidly euphamistically named employee free choice act would be positive to the american worker shows total ignorance of any economic or global consideration.

there's a reason unions are disappearing in the private sector, they are devastating to american competitiveness. the idea that you can extort money from a corporation under threat of bankrupting it with strikes and this is a good back and forth has proved to be economic lunacy. public unions only survive by stealing taxpayer money.

It's a free market, every american has the right to dictate what their services are worth, it's not extortion it's negiating on a level playing field. If you don't believe in unions don't join one.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by peacepipe

It's a free market, every american has the right to dictate what their services are worth, it's not extortion it's negiating on a level playing field.

sure, and when they pass this they can dictate how many new jobs mexico gets. unions can organize now, the problem is corporations have been able to convince a fair number of people of the truth, that unions destroy companies, and that if they want their job it's best to not get into one.

I wish it wasn't like this, I wish unions were reasonable and cared about competitiveness and understood global economic issues. but they don't. they care about seniority programs and massive over compensation and the only language they speak is extortion and threats of bankruptcy.

as for being able to dictate what your services are worth that's some new kind of hilarious lunacy from the rabid pro union ignorants. so you get a job at mcdonalds and you say "well now that I"m working at mcdonalds I think I'm worth 250$ an hour." no you don't. but that's exactly what unions do. they dictate to companies who can't get rid of them whatever pay packages they want. and as no shock, corporations strapped with unions leave the united states in droves(or simply disappear into bankruptcy). I've seen some desperate pleas from corporations who want to keep their american factories if only the union would relent, but it never does. so the corporation shutters the factory and moves to mexico/china.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by peacepipe

It's a free market, every american has the right to dictate what their services are worth, it's not extortion it's negiating on a level playing field. If you don't believe in unions don't join one.

Sure....which is why you are the first to complain when jobs levae the country. You think YOU have a right to a job and you don't. Unions are ****. The time for them has passed.

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Sure....which is why you are the first to complain when jobs levae the country. You think YOU have a right to a job and you don't. Unions are ****. The time for them has passed.

It seems Andy Stern has visited the white house the most.

[Garcia Bronco]

I mean any act that calls for a vote in the open with names and addresses attached to it is off its rocker in the worst sort of way.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

It seems Andy Stern has visited the white house the most.

Obama doing business with an SEIU/ACORN lobbist...what a surprise.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

I mean any act that calls for a vote in the open with names and addresses attached to it is off its rocker in the worst sort of way.

it's the return of the mafia labor movement.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

It seems Andy Stern has visited the white house the most.

he's a perfect example, his conception of unions is the driver for destroying capitalism. unions don't work within the american system to increase american prosperity, they attempt to destroy it.

[rastaman]

Originally Posted by yavoon

sure, and when they pass this they can dictate how many new jobs mexico gets. unions can organize now, the problem is corporations have been able to convince a fair number of people of the truth, that unions destroy companies, and that if they want their job it's best to not get into one.

Unions do not destroy corp. or companies. If you can provide proof of you claim that unions have caused untold numbers of companies to go out of business please do so. Unions actually built the American middle class. Prior to the rise of unions in this country, America did not have a middle class. What we had were the rich, a segement of society that was just a series of crisis away and they would have found themselves in financial trouble/ruin, and then you had the very poor.

I wish it wasn't like this, I wish unions were reasonable and cared about competitiveness and understood global economic issues. but they don't. they care about seniority programs and massive over compensation and the only language they speak is extortion and threats of bankruptcy.

Unions made it possible for workers becoming middle class. However Americans trying to maintain their middle class status or even attain middle class in America today is like scaling a cliff. Most middle-class Americans are clinging to the edge with their fingernails, trying not to fall. In the 1950s middle-class families could live comfortably if just one parent worked. Today more than 60 percent of mothers with children under six are in the work force. Not only do both parents work but often at least one of those parents works two or more jobs.

The American dream and the American reality have collided. In America we have always said that if you work hard and play by the rules, you can take care of yourself and your family. But the minimum wage is just $7.25 per hour. With a 40-hour workweek, that comes to a gross income of $13,390 per year. Nobody can support a family, own a home, buy health insurance, or retire decently on $13,390 per year!


as for being able to dictate what your services are worth that's some new kind of hilarious lunacy from the rabid pro union ignorants. so you get a job at mcdonalds and you say "well now that I"m working at mcdonalds I think I'm worth 250$ an hour." no you don't. but that's exactly what unions do. they dictate to companies who can't get rid of them whatever pay packages they want. and as no shock, corporations strapped with unions leave the united states in droves(or simply disappear into bankruptcy). I've seen some desperate pleas from corporations who want to keep their american factories if only the union would relent, but it never does. so the corporation shutters the factory and moves to mexico/china.

Unless you are a CEO, you don’t have a lot of leverage to demand benefits at your workplace. Every year or two, you might go to your boss and ask for a raise or an extra day of vacation, but usually you can’t do much about what hours you work, what health benefits you receive, or how your retirement benefits are structured. Unions give workers that leverage. Unions are designed to give workers a voice in decisions that affect their jobs.

They allow workers to negotiate with their employers for wages, health benefits, retirement benefits, and good working conditions. In the best circumstances, unions partner with companies—both have an interest in satisfied, happy workers.

American workers in this country have been on a downward financial income spiral ever since Ronald Reagan declared war on working people in 1981. Companies cut prices and then cut wages so they can still turn a hefty profit. Folks whose wages have been cut can't afford to shop at midrange stores like Macy's, so they have to buy at "low-wage" discount stores like Wal-Mart. That drives more midrange stores out of business and increases pressure on discount stores to send their prices even lower. To compensate for lower prices, they lower wages so they can still turn a hefty profit. On and on it goes -- until the people working those jobs are no longer middle class and have to work two or three jobs to survive.

[TexanBob]

Organized labor = organized crime.

What's the one thing Communists keep in operation when they take over a country? Labor unions.

Why? Because it is easier to control workers with an iron fist through union intimidation than it is through police tactics.

Organized labor, in principle, is a good thing. Back in the days of child labor and seven-day work weeks, it was even necessary. But these days, unions only bloat costs for businesses with featherbedding and burdensome benefits. Why did GM and Chrysler go broke? It was all the union concessions they gave over the years. Heck, the UAW even had something set up where GM was paying people that refused to work.

If unions weren't led by toadies and thugs interested only in the survival of the union, they might actually be an agent of good. But as we've seen in case after case, they are mob-infested quasi-legal extortion groups whose only concern is what makes themselves the most money.

[rastaman]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

I mean any act that calls for a vote in the open with names and addresses attached to it is off its rocker in the worst sort of way.

Gar Unions provides for Democracy in the work force. If you can't talk freely about your working conditions, you can't negotiate changes to those conditions. If you're afraid the boss will fire you if you complain about overtime, you have no way to prevent your boss from requiring you to work extra hours.

Most of us don't think about workplace rights. We assume that because we live in America, we have all the rights we need.

There are no constitutional protections in the workplace. Most people are at-will employees, which means they can be hired or fired at will. Federal law protects you from being fired because of race, age, gender, or disability, but it doesn't protect you from being fired for saying that the boss is overworking you or the company's actions are immoral. You can't say that sort of thing in the workplace because the workplace is not a democracy.

[yavoon]

btw as for the confidence in it being passed, that's more cheerleading. the disastrously poisonous bill certainly could be passed, but it has some pretty serious obstacles. obama did one brilliant thing with the health care which he will be unable to do with card check. he bought off the health care industry in advance of even attempting to pass the legislation. and as per that they've remained very quiet.

there is no real opportunity to buyout anyone with card check, everyone in business knows this is the worst legislative idea in 30 years, and they will be there to line the barricades against it.

then there's the moderate democrats, who have proven quite frustrating to obama's health care agenda they will be no less frustrating to card check.

the best chance card check has is to be passed in the middle of the night on a friday with zero debate. any drawn out discussion and public debate about it will be extremely stressful on moderate democrats and even some democrats farther to the left in their poll numbers. especially if their poll numbers are still hurting from ramming through(or attempting to ram through) health care.

oh and sorry rasta I still consider your opinion worthless. Nice touch with everything in bold though, I assume you're going to have to scream louder and louder as time goes on.

[bpc]

Hey, work should be guaranteed, just like healthcare and homes.... or so they will have you believe.

[rastaman]

Originally Posted by yavoon

he's a perfect example, his conception of unions is the driver for destroying capitalism. unions don't work within the american system to increase american prosperity, they attempt to destroy it.

This country needs to see a return of the American labor movement today more than ever. The American working middle class is regressing. Middle-class income has stopped growing. The net worth of those who earn less than $150,000 per year (which includes everybody from the working poor to the highest end of the most well-off of the middle class) has continued to sprial downward.

The problem isn't the economy. Corporations are making more money than ever. The real income of people whose net worth exceeds $100 million is doubling.

What's happening is simple: The rich are getting richer and the entire spectrum of the middle class is disappearing.

We can easily trace this decline to Reagan's first public declaration of war on the middle class when he went after the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) in 1981. He broke the back of the air-traffic controllers' union and began the practice of using the Department of Labor -- traditionally the ally of workers -- against organized labor and working people.

Reagan liked to say he was against "big government." What he really meant was that he was against Roosevelt's New Deal. He was against Social Security, the minimum wage, free college education (he ended that in California as its governor), and programs like the WPA. He believed in the discredited concept of "trickle-down" economics -- the theory that if you create a corporatocracy, the rich will nobly spend some of their money to help the rest of us. The American people don't need handouts. Our workers just want to be paid a living wage for a fair day's work. We can't count on the corporatocracy to give us what we earn, so we need a strong labor movement to give us the power to negotiate our wages and benefits. Ultimately, it's all about power.

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by peacepipe

It's a free market, every american has the right to dictate what their services are worth, it's not extortion it's negiating on a level playing field. If you don't believe in unions don't join one.

Right but then also don't get upset when company fires all the union boys and hires non-union. It's a free world right?

[cutthemdown]

All having union everything would do is make inflation run like crazy. Sounds good to force companies into paying everyone 40 bucks an hour, but the problem is most union jobs are over paid. You overpay everyone you have a real problem.

[snowspot66]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

All having union everything would do is make inflation run like crazy. Sounds good to force companies into paying everyone 40 bucks an hour, but the problem is most union jobs are over paid. You overpay everyone you have a real problem.

Instead of blaming unions wouldn't it be more appropriate then to say that both sides need to negotiate within financial reality and with a mutual interest? Happy workers happy company. No unions results in big companies like Wal-Mart treating everybody like **** because they know there are dozens of people lined up to work a ****ty minimum wage job with no hope for anything better as long as they work there.

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by snowspot66

Instead of blaming unions wouldn't it be more appropriate then to say that both sides need to negotiate within financial reality and with a mutual interest? Happy workers happy company. No unions results in big companies like Wal-Mart treating everybody like **** because they know there are dozens of people lined up to work a ****ty minimum wage job with no hope for anything better as long as they work there.

The market would say if people are lining up then it can't be ****ty. Obviously the job is easy, requires no real training or skills. That's why people are outside lining up for the jobs. It's a good job for extra money, while you go to school, while you look for a better job. You can't unionize walmart, pay the workers more, give them bennies and make working at walmart a real career.

Sure some will move up into management etc, but really its an entry level job, or a families 2nd income job etc.

[rastaman]

Originally Posted by yavoon

btw as for the confidence in it being passed, that's more cheerleading. the disastrously poisonous bill certainly could be passed, but it has some pretty serious obstacles. obama did one brilliant thing with the health care which he will be unable to do with card check. he bought off the health care industry in advance of even attempting to pass the legislation. and as per that they've remained very quiet.

there is no real opportunity to buyout anyone with card check, everyone in business knows this is the worst legislative idea in 30 years, and they will be there to line the barricades against it.

then there's the moderate democrats, who have proven quite frustrating to obama's health care agenda they will be no less frustrating to card check.

the best chance card check has is to be passed in the middle of the night on a friday with zero debate. any drawn out discussion and public debate about it will be extremely stressful on moderate democrats and even some democrats farther to the left in their poll numbers. especially if their poll numbers are still hurting from ramming through(or attempting to ram through) health care.

oh and sorry rasta I still consider your opinion worthless. Nice touch with everything in bold though, I assume you're going to have to scream louder and louder as time goes on.

All you're doing is spreading reckless propaganda. You and your ilk are totally ignorant and arrogant on the true history of the need for unions in this country. Your post above is full of rhetoric, red herrings, and chicken little the sky is falling etc. The facts are the American middle class needs to organize and reverse the war on the American workers started by the Reagan administration by doing the falling:

First, we must recognize and reclaim the government programs that create a middle class:

-Return to the American people our ownership of the military, the prison system, and the ballot box.

-Fight for free and public education that encourages critical thinking, historical knowledge, and a love of learning in each child. Combat the No Child Left Behind Act and the belief that education is a commodity that can be tested.

-Fight for a national single-payer health-care system based on Medicare.

-Fight for Social Security -- do not let it be privatized or co-opted.

-Fight for progressive taxation: reinstate a rate of 35 percent on corporations and a rate of 70 percent on the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans -- and use the money to pay back the Social Security system and to fund an economic investment program.

-Fight for a living wage and for the right of labor to organize.

-Fight for a national energy program that puts people and the planet -- not Big Oil -- first.

When America has a strong middle class, democracy will follow. The opposite is also true. To fight back, we must also make use of the ballot box. We can achieve the economic programs that make the middle class possible by using the power of our democracy to vote for those politicians who support the middle class. We've been conned by the failed Reagan voodoo economics and trickle down lies by conservative voting Republicans, Corporate Democrats and Reagan Democrats for long enough. It's simple time to take back America.

[rastaman]

Originally Posted by TexanBob

Organized labor = organized crime.

What's the one thing Communists keep in operation when they take over a country? Labor unions.

Why? Because it is easier to control workers with an iron fist through union intimidation than it is through police tactics.

Organized labor, in principle, is a good thing. Back in the days of child labor and seven-day work weeks, it was even necessary. But these days, unions only bloat costs for businesses with featherbedding and burdensome benefits. Why did GM and Chrysler go broke? It was all the union concessions they gave over the years. Heck, the UAW even had something set up where GM was paying people that refused to work.

If unions weren't led by toadies and thugs interested only in the survival of the union, they might actually be an agent of good. But as we've seen in case after case, they are mob-infested quasi-legal extortion groups whose only concern is what makes themselves the most money.

Just as the three branches of our federal government are supposed to act as a check and balance to each other, unions were created to act in much the same way to protect the workers from greedy corporations.

Our country would be a lot better off if we could mend both of these broken systems.

A strong national presence of unions even helps people who work in non-union places. Employers are forced to raise the wages and benefits offered ( perhaps not to the level of union workers, but still above the minimums ) in order to keep the good workers they have. A rising tide raises all boats.

[peacepipe]

Originally Posted by yavoon

btw as for the confidence in it being passed, that's more cheerleading. the disastrously poisonous bill certainly could be passed, but it has some pretty serious obstacles. obama did one brilliant thing with the health care which he will be unable to do with card check. he bought off the health care industry in advance of even attempting to pass the legislation. and as per that they've remained very quiet.

there is no real opportunity to buyout anyone with card check, everyone in business knows this is the worst legislative idea in 30 years, and they will be there to line the barricades against it.

then there's the moderate democrats, who have proven quite frustrating to obama's health care agenda they will be no less frustrating to card check. the best chance card check has is to be passed in the middle of the night on a friday with zero debate. any drawn out discussion and public debate about it will be extremely stressful on moderate democrats and even some democrats farther to the left in their poll numbers. especially if their poll numbers are still hurting from ramming through(or attempting to ram through) health care.

oh and sorry rasta I still consider your opinion worthless. Nice touch with everything in bold though, I assume you're going to have to scream louder and louder as time goes on.

Just to give you an idea of where moderates stand when it comes to unions, Joe Lieberman,YES JOE LIEBERMAN, has a 100% rating from the AFL-CIO. If there is any moderate Dem that we need to worry about it is Blanche Lincoln, who ain't going to stand a chance at getting re-elected without the dem base. She won't even make out of the dem primary let alone a general.

As far as libs go, look at what states have liberal senators, the N. East, the west coast. You actually think they are going to have to worry about there jobs if they support EFCA? They may get a parade for voting for EFCA. I think you can count on 1 hand how many reps are in the NE.