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Old 12-01-2009, 09:14 PM   #376
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Really?

What exactly can he do better than most of our RB's?

Break tackles?

Perhaps he can, but we've seen Moreno and Jordan steamroll people as well.

Catch passes?

Jordan has 158 career receptions.... Buckhalter has 109...Moreno is one of the better receiving RB's to come outta college the past few seasons.

Block?

If he was the best blocker, he'd be the starting FB, or at least would get more reps wouldn't you think?

Make defenders miss?

Sorry, but if you think Hillis is more agile and has better moves than Moreno or Buckhalter, then you've been sniffing his jock too long.

Big play potential?

For all the hype you heap on him, Hillis' career longest rush is 19 yards. Moreno has almost twice that as his.

Speed?

Moreno might not have had the fastest 40 time, but he definitely plays faster than he times....

I'm thinking you can't name even one thing he does better than the current crop we have....well except ride the pine.
Jordan you said that with a straight face right ....OMG

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Old 12-01-2009, 09:15 PM   #377
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I remember hearing the same kind of senseless crap that Scheffler wasn't a fit for this offense, that we should trade him, or when was McDaniels going to trade Scheffler, or if Scheffler was next in the trading block..
McDaniels never said Scheffler didn't fit the offense. He said exactly the opposite, in that he was excited to have that kind of weapon.

So, the analogy isn't remotely apt.

Beyond that, it's apparent that Scheffler was able to learn his assignments and execute them to a degree that earned him playing time.

In other words, McDaniels showed no bias, and put a Shanahan player on the field to help himself win.

When Hillis can execute his job properly, I'm sure he'll get more playing time, as well.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:23 PM   #378
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Why are some people getting so sensitive over the fact that others here want a Bronco player to see some playing time?

Who knows why he isn't really playing. NONE of us no the real story anyway.
I agree I want the best for every bronco but there are some really crazy ass people on here saying bad things about Hills and Moreno ...

I can see nothing bad about having both on our team . I hope hills does start helping out more becase the guy is gold on 3rd down he always finds the sticks . He was money on 3rd down last year and he was money in college on 3rd down .
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:26 PM   #379
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McDaniels never said Scheffler didn't fit the offense. He said exactly the opposite, in that he was excited to have that kind of weapon.

So, the analogy isn't remotely apt.

Beyond that, it's apparent that Scheffler was able to learn his assignments and execute them to a degree that earned him playing time.

In other words, McDaniels showed no bias, and put a Shanahan player on the field to help himself win.

When Hillis can execute his job properly, I'm sure he'll get more playing time, as well.
When did I say it was McDaniels who said Scheffler didn't fit our offense.
I was referring to the same clowns who are now undermining Hillis abilities to be a force on the field...
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:28 PM   #380
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Jordan you said that with a straight face right ....OMG
LMAO!!!
Yup, that's how far they go to try to make a point that is not there.
To even go as far as comparing Jordan to Hillis is when the guy lost any credibility for me to take him serious anymore...
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:29 PM   #381
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oh and Errand save you breath on why larson is starting at FB it is because of how great he plays ST's now I am not saying he cannot block well, but I think it is more the way Larson plays ST's .
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:30 PM   #382
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LMAO!!!
Yup, that's how far they go to try to make a point that is not there.
To even go as far as comparing Jordan to Hillis is when the guy lost any credibility for me to take him serious anymore...
if he was for real he is nuts.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:33 PM   #383
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When did I say it was McDaniels who said Scheffler didn't fit our offense.
I was referring to the same clowns who are now undermining Hillis abilities to be a force on the field...
Clowns?

You mean, the people who are using two top offensive coaches as their measuring stick on Hillis' progress?

So, if you trust in Shanahan/McDaniels analysis of where Hillis should be in the depth chart, you're a "clown?"

But, if you're a guy on a message board that thinks you're smarter than those coaches... you're A-OK?



Tell you what, work out your problems with Shanahan and McDaniels. They're the coaches who clearly chose to make Hillis a back-up, not a starter.

Go tell them what "clowns" they are.


Or, prove the conspiracy. Take your pick.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:54 PM   #384
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Clowns?

You mean, the people who are using two top offensive coaches as their measuring stick on Hillis' progress?

So, if you trust in Shanahan/McDaniels analysis of where Hillis should be in the depth chart, you're a "clown?"

But, if you're a guy on a message board that thinks you're smarter than those coaches... you're A-OK?



Tell you what, work out your problems with Shanahan and McDaniels. They're the coaches who clearly chose to make Hillis a back-up, not a starter.

Go tell them what "clowns" they are.


Or, prove the conspiracy. Take your pick.
well said.....I trust my sources over most of what is typed here....
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:30 PM   #385
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When I was in grad school, they taught me a funny thing: do your research, THEN write your paper.

The running backs in question in 3rd down or goal-to-go situations:

Hillis - 10 rushes for 32 yards (3.2 yards per carry), 4 first downs (40% conversion rate), 2 TDs.

Moreno - 18 rushes for 64 yards (3.6 yards per carry), 10 first downs (56% conversion rate), 1 TD.

So much for Hillis being the more reliable third down and short yardage back.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:09 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Popps View Post
Clowns?

You mean, the people who are using two top offensive coaches as their measuring stick on Hillis' progress?

So, if you trust in Shanahan/McDaniels analysis of where Hillis should be in the depth chart, you're a "clown?"

But, if you're a guy on a message board that thinks you're smarter than those coaches... you're A-OK?



Tell you what, work out your problems with Shanahan and McDaniels. They're the coaches who clearly chose to make Hillis a back-up, not a starter.

Go tell them what "clowns" they are.


Or, prove the conspiracy. Take your pick.
Hillis was never slated to be a starter by either coach.
Not that he couldn't be.
I think they have their own philosophy of who their type of RB should be.
Still, what I'm being adamant about is Hillis lack of play. Independently from whether he is or he's not starter material.
That's up for debate at another day. What we need to realize is what Hillis has brought to our offense since last year, what he can bring to our offense this year.
To have this guy rot on the sidelines is what's disturbing to me.
Why?
You guys keep coming up with reasons as to why he's not playing that nobody outside this forum has even heard of. That's the truth!

For all of us who have seen this guy play, and yes, that includes YOU, we're having a hard time buying what you're selling.

Hillis can play. Hillis is an impact player first and foremost on any day of the week.
You can't convince me that we're better off with Jordan, Moreno and even C-Buck on certain situations like goal-line, 3rd and short type of plays, or any play for that matter that Hillis wouldn't have a better chance to succeed.
I understand Moreno is our "future" back, but that's not reason to make believe that this guy is there yet.
He might be physically ripped and all, but he's still a soft player as you have certainly witnessed but refuse to acknowledge.
And when I and everybody else say "soft" is to describe his lack of toughness, he needs to be tough not only physically but mentally.

He's been one hit, and he's down type of runner.
Do you remember Hillis being like that?

Last edited by strafen; 12-01-2009 at 11:11 PM..
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:22 PM   #387
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When I was in grad school, they taught me a funny thing: do your research, THEN write your paper.

The running backs in question in 3rd down or goal-to-go situations:

Hillis - 10 rushes for 32 yards (3.2 yards per carry), 4 first downs (40% conversion rate), 2 TDs.

Moreno - 18 rushes for 64 yards (3.6 yards per carry), 10 first downs (56% conversion rate), 1 TD.

So much for Hillis being the more reliable third down and short yardage back.
Have you researched his catches conversions as well?
Not that I know it right off the top of my head, but he was certainly used in 3rd downs catching passes.

Remember, Hillis since last year had 72 rushing attempts and 6 Td's.
Moreno already has 161 rushing attempts 4 Td's and 4 fumbles. Not quite apples to apples comparison
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:36 PM   #388
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He might be physically ripped and all, but he's still a soft player as you have certainly witnessed but refuse to acknowledge.
I don't acknowledge things that aren't true.

You saying it doesn't make it so. I've watched him break tackles and run over guys all year. He doesn't have top-flight speed, and he's averaging well over 4 yards a carry. So, do the math. He's going THROUGH people. (And around them.)

Someone just destroyed your argument a couple posts back using statistics, anyway. (Then you switched subjects, of course.)

Again, I love Hillis' ability. I hope he earns more playing time. I'm sure when he can execute his job properly, he'll earn that playing time.
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Old 12-02-2009, 06:59 AM   #389
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Jordan you said that with a straight face right ....OMG
I'm talking about over the course of his career bonehead....

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ampaign=ec0005

Jordan has been pretty much a battering ram on every team he's played for.
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:13 AM   #390
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LMAO!!!
Yup, that's how far they go to try to make a point that is not there.
To even go as far as comparing Jordan to Hillis is when the guy lost any credibility for me to take him serious anymore...
Really?

LaMont Jordan's career has turned out much better than Hillis' has.

He's put up the following numbers

892 attempts for 3,707 yards, a 4.2 career avg. with a longest of 61 yards and 28 TD's. He's also caught 158 passes for 1301 yards (8.2 avg.) and 3 TD's

That's 5,008 total yards

His best season was 2005 when he rushed for 1025 yards and caught 70 balls scoring 11 TD's. For his career Jordan has 9 fumbles total....losing 4 of them.

When Hillis plays 9 seasons...well hell, when Hillis plays 9 ****ing games, come talk to us then.
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:17 AM   #391
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Yeah - McDaniels is benching Hillis for conspiracy reasons... because he doesn't like Hillis. Even tho his goal is to win mother fuc.kin games, and ultimate goal is to win the SB, he will allow something dumb to happen like benching a player that should play because he hates him/conspiracy.

I wonder how some of you fuc.k-tards were raised.

The players that will give the team the best chance to win will play... what in your mind makes you think that he would do otherwise on PURPOSE?
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:17 AM   #392
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oh and Errand save you breath on why larson is starting at FB it is because of how great he plays ST's now I am not saying he cannot block well, but I think it is more the way Larson plays ST's .
I think the reason he's starting FB is the same reason Hillis is not. Larsen outperforms Hillis in the coaches eyes.
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:56 AM   #393
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His biggest problem is that he's not a particularly good lead blocker.

It's nice to have a versatile player who can do lots of things at the full back position, but the number one job a FB has to be good at is lead blocking and that's where Hillis struggles.

It's like having a WR who can break tackles and throw brilliant downfield passes on trick plays but isn't very good at actually getting open and catching the football. It's hard to put a guy like that on the field very often.

He's a good player to have for depth purposes. Can run the ball pretty decently, can catch passes, can do a bit of lead blocking. But he's not great at any one job, and McDaniels seems very role-orientated and can probably just see someone who is a better player at any given role that he needs.

Moreno is a better running back.

Larsen is a better lead blocker.

Scheffler is a better big, physical pass catching mismatch.

The only role I can see he might be best suited to is short yardage, and I think Moreno is getting better at that all the time and it's something which will ultimately be a real strength of his.

Hillis will probably go on to be a useful if unspectacular player one day, I doubt it'll be in Denver though.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:21 AM   #394
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Someone just destroyed your argument a couple posts back using statistics, anyway. (Then you switched subjects, of course.)

.
Destroyed my argument with statistics?
You only see what you want to see.
He was using stats that are not equal on both sides to really tell the story.
You can't compare Hillis 72 career rushing attempts to Morenos 161 career rushing attempts to make a case when not all things are being equal.
If I was going to prorate Hillis stats of 72 Rushing attempts, yardage and TD's scored to Morenos actual numbers, then you have to assume that Hillis would have close to 1200 yrds, 11-12 TD's with the same attempts and games played as where Moreno stands right now, no?
That would be a more fair scenario to compare their numbers, and not when one has carried the ball and played more games (started) than the other one.
Come on, you can do better than that!
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:45 AM   #395
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When I was in grad school, they taught me a funny thing: do your research, THEN write your paper.

The running backs in question in 3rd down or goal-to-go situations:

Hillis - 10 rushes for 32 yards (3.2 yards per carry), 4 first downs (40% conversion rate), 2 TDs.

Moreno - 18 rushes for 64 yards (3.6 yards per carry), 10 first downs (56% conversion rate), 1 TD.

So much for Hillis being the more reliable third down and short yardage back.
Are those Hillis's stats from the 2008 season? If so you're comparing apples and oranges.

Moreno is getting all the starts in 2009 and Hillis hasn't been given the same opportunity's.

Thats not a fair comparison.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:52 AM   #396
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His biggest problem is that he's not a particularly good lead blocker.

It's nice to have a versatile player who can do lots of things at the full back position, but the number one job a FB has to be good at is lead blocking and that's where Hillis struggles.

It's like having a WR who can break tackles and throw brilliant downfield passes on trick plays but isn't very good at actually getting open and catching the football. It's hard to put a guy like that on the field very often.

He's a good player to have for depth purposes. Can run the ball pretty decently, can catch passes, can do a bit of lead blocking. But he's not great at any one job, and McDaniels seems very role-orientated and can probably just see someone who is a better player at any given role that he needs.

Moreno is a better running back.

Larsen is a better lead blocker.

Scheffler is a better big, physical pass catching mismatch.

The only role I can see he might be best suited to is short yardage, and I think Moreno is getting better at that all the time and it's something which will ultimately be a real strength of his.

Hillis will probably go on to be a useful if unspectacular player one day, I doubt it'll be in Denver though.
Agreed. Hillis in McDaniel's system does not have a future as far as getting a chance to contribute with the first team offense. Now if Hilli's is satisfied with the special teams roles McD has in stored for him, then Peyton should remain in Denver.

However, if Hillis is unhappy as a special teams player, at the end of the season he should go to McD and ask for his out-right release. Hillis if hasn't already done so needs to get his agent to put out feelers for other teams who maybe interested in his talent.

Its nothing personal....McD has his players he wants to use with the first team offense and Peyton isn't one of them. So its time for Hillis to move on for better opportunities.
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:17 AM   #397
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Agreed. Hillis in McDaniel's system does not have a future as far as getting a chance to contribute with the first team offense. Now if Hilli's is satisfied with the special teams roles McD has in stored for him, then Peyton should remain in Denver.

However, if Hillis is unhappy as a special teams player, at the end of the season he should go to McD and ask for his out-right release. Hillis if hasn't already done so needs to get his agent to put out feelers for other teams who maybe interested in his talent.

Its nothing personal....McD has his players he wants to use with the first team offense and Peyton isn't one of them. So its time for Hillis to move on for better opportunities.
Well put.
Everybody and anybody outside this forum knows Hillis could play on another team and be very productive. He will impact offenses and would force opposing defenses to make adjustment to cover for him. He's that kind of player....
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:27 AM   #398
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Thats not a fair comparison.
It might not be completely fair but it's really the only yardstick we have. And if this comparison isn't fair you also need to throw out the TD comparison which only suggests that Hillis has had more goal line and deep red zone opportunities.

Also, many are saying Hillis is the better third down and goal line option. At the very least this comparison raises legit doubt about that.

And for the record, I'm all for Hillis getting more touches. But I trust the coaches on this.
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:35 AM   #399
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Destroyed my argument with statistics?
You only see what you want to see.
He was using stats that are not equal on both sides to really tell the story.
You can't compare Hillis 72 career rushing attempts to Morenos 161 career rushing attempts to make a case when not all things are being equal.
If I was going to prorate Hillis stats of 72 Rushing attempts, yardage and TD's scored to Morenos actual numbers, then you have to assume that Hillis would have close to 1200 yrds, 11-12 TD's with the same attempts and games played as where Moreno stands right now, no?
That would be a more fair scenario to compare their numbers, and not when one has carried the ball and played more games (started) than the other one.
Come on, you can do better than that!
No.

You were the one that made a statement about Hillis being a better short-yardage runner.

That was proven to be factually incorrect.

So, like the last time you were proven incorrect, you're changing the subject. Now you want to project forward?

You were wrong. Just admit it. There is no statistical evidence for Hillis being a better short-yardage runner.



The funny thing about all of this is... I was a HUGE Hillis guy last season when Shanahan kept trying to insert slobs like Selvin Young and Cooked Crack into our lineup. (In other words, he was the best of what we had at that time.)

But, he's likely not the best we have now, or he'd be starting. If you haven't learned that about McDaniels, you're simply not paying attention. He's benched his own guys, made his own draft picks inactive and started Shanahan guys if they're the best option.

So, once again... a logical mind looks for a logical explanation. Why does Hillis APPEAR to be a great RB, and yet two great coaches attempt to avoid using him as a starter?

A logical mind assumes that when there is enough smoke, there is probably fire... and Hillis work-ethic, coachability and mental preparedness has been questioned since he left school.



Hey, if Hillis starts getting the rock and blows up, no one will be happier than me. I'd love to have another hammer to pound teams with. The difference is, I understand that Moreno is a more complete back... and he's our future, and I also understand that our coaching staff sees these guys first hand every day. There's no conspiracy here.

When Hillis earns carries as a starting RB, he'll get those carries. Until then, he'll remain a STs guy and a back-up.
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:36 AM   #400
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Well put.
Everybody and anybody outside this forum knows Hillis could play on another team and be very productive.
Prove it.

Show me any proof of that.


Show me proof that the collective NFL world believes that Hillis is an NFL starter.

You have it ass-backwards. If anything, this forum has a tendency to highly overvalue and overrate Broncos players. There's no where in the world Hillis will get as much respect as he does on this forum.

Are you related to him?
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