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Old 04-12-2011, 12:32 PM   #3776
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I wasn't a Portis fan, that's a taste thing though.

I never argued that Denver's run game was better in 2005...I just don't see why that matters in the Hillis discussion. Droughns did more for Denver than Hillis ever did, I don't see how that can be argued. Just because Denver managed to replace him successfully doesn't change that.

As for your rather abstract comparison of running success before and after Hillis...it's easy to argue. ****, Hillis is a guy that has contributed a whole 600 yards to the Denver Broncos. Yep, that's it...600 total yards ever. This is the guy who's very presence is the difference between a great running game and a poor one? Give me a break. The difference between a great running game and Denver's from last year was Mcd and Shanahan, simple as that.
...but he was successful (to the point of being praised by Belichick) when he left while Denver's running game floundered.

How are you missing this?
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:16 PM   #3777
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...but he was successful (to the point of being praised by Belichick) when he left while Denver's running game floundered.

How are you missing this?
Exactly. Proof is in the pudding. Our biggest problems on offense that year were 3rd down conversions and redzone production. Both were solved with Hillis. Hillis had a 35% first down rate. The highest in the league for 65+ carries. The Broncos' problems came back for the final three games without Hillis. The bold games are when Hillis was starting RB.

2008 Season

6 L
7 L
8 Bye Week
9 L
10 W
11 W
12 L
13 W
14 W

15 L
16 L
17 L

See the only "W" when he didn't start in week 10? The Broncos were not in the lead when our last healthy RB went down. Hillis came in during the 4th quarter and picked up a key 4th and 1 on the winning drive. (something the Broncos usually struggled with) So, he gets some credit for that win as well. He was the MVP for the wins over the last 11 games.

Key stat in week 10 (from NFL.com)
While the Broncos may have only had one fourth-down attempt, it was a big one. During Denver's decisive drive, the Broncos faced a crucial fourth-and-1 and they gave the ball to FB Peyton Hillis. Browns S Sean Jones appeared to have Hillis stopped in the backfield, but the rookie out of Arkansas dragged him a yard and half to convert the first down.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:28 PM   #3778
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I think we need a 200 page thread for Reuben Droughns
There is one, you're posting in it. Reuben Droughns 2.0 at least. Or maybe Reuben Droughns 0.5 is more accurate , as Reuben Droughns had better years as both a Bronco and a Brown.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:07 AM   #3779
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...but he was successful (to the point of being praised by Belichick) when he left while Denver's running game floundered.

How are you missing this?
Hillis was essentially gone in 2009, he had 70 total yards. He was not a contributor to the success of the Broncos running game in 2009. How are you missing that the running game was actually quite close to identical with Hillis as a major contributor in 2008, but as a bench warmer in 2009? Are you suggesting that his mere presence in the locker room is what was keeping the running game a float?
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:01 AM   #3780
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Hillis was essentially gone in 2009, he had 70 total yards. He was not a contributor to the success of the Broncos running game in 2009. How are you missing that the running game was actually quite close to identical with Hillis as a major contributor in 2008, but as a bench warmer in 2009? Are you suggesting that his mere presence in the locker room is what was keeping the running game a float?


1. We dropped .6 ypc from 08-09...

2. Your "point" makes no sense. Part of the reason this is well on the way to reaching 200 pages is it's reflection on McDaniels. Not utilizing Hillis in O&B, shipping him away for poor compensation, and then having our running game flounder while he succeeded as a one man show in a FAR worse offensive system (29th in the NFL vs 13th) and greatly outperformed what we invested the #12 overall selection in is why this will probably go all the way to 300 pages.

I really have no idea why you're the only one who doesn't see this?
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:22 AM   #3781
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Wow! This thread is huge!
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:26 AM   #3782
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The thread that won't die
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:35 AM   #3783
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1. We dropped .6 ypc from 08-09...

2. Your "point" makes no sense. Part of the reason this is well on the way to reaching 200 pages is it's reflection on McDaniels. Not utilizing Hillis in O&B, shipping him away for poor compensation, and then having our running game flounder while he succeeded as a one man show in a FAR worse offensive system (29th in the NFL vs 13th) and greatly outperformed what we invested the #12 overall selection in is why this will probably go all the way to 300 pages.

I really have no idea why you're the only one who doesn't see this?
1. Yay another statistic. Hillis had a 4.4 average in 2010...Moreno had a 4.3, apparently they are practically even then right?

I am certainly not alone in seeing this. We agree that this is a reflection on McD, we disagree that Hillis as a player has anything to do with it (or at least very little). I'm not making some huge leap in logic. My argument here is system related...all McD's fault. Denver may have had a nice passing offense to bolster it's rankings, but it's run system was utter ****. Hillis wasn't going to help that. I'm arguing that even with Hillis, the run game would have been equally as ****ty.

Now fast forward to this upcoming season, if we are seeing good running lanes it would have been nice to have another hammer to strike the defense with like Hillis. Hillis himself doesn't make the running game though, very few backs do.

Around there worship seems to come a little easy....so Hillis with his 2250 all purpose yards in his career (600 in Denver) in better rushing systems (Denvers old system/Browns current) is Super awesome the Next Earl Campbell...and Moreno with his 2311 all purpose yards in an inferior rushing system is Slowshon the bust.
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:41 AM   #3784
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Doesn't matter how you swing it the trade of Hillis for Brady fuggin Quinn was an epic failure
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:47 AM   #3785
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Well the om melt when hardesty starts next year?
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:52 AM   #3786
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So Hillis with his 2250 all purpose yards in his career (600 in Denver) in better rushing systems (Denvers old system/Browns current) is Super awesome the Next Earl Campbell...and Moreno with his 2311 all purpose yards in an inferior rushing system is Slowshon the bust.


People love white RB's.
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:56 AM   #3787
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Wow! This thread is huge!
People are sporting as much wood in this thread as the one about Trex decking.....
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:59 AM   #3788
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Doesn't matter how you swing it the trade of Hillis for Brady fuggin Quinn was an epic failure
Hey, Stop that. If you put it in a perspective that everyone will agree with like that, then there's nothing to argue about.
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:29 AM   #3789
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I wonder if the Elway thread on the Colts board went this long.
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:50 AM   #3790
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Hey, Stop that. If you put it in a perspective that everyone will agree with like that, then there's nothing to argue about.
You'll find a way...
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:15 PM   #3791
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Because McD didn't screw up at all if you like Tebow. Getting a legitimate back-up on the roster was essential in drafting Tebow. You're nucking futs if you think that Tebow gets drafted by Denver if the 2 QB's were Orton and Brandstater.

And the gimmick is the color of his skin. He's a run of the mill, dime a dozen back....But because he's white, people fawn over him.

See also: Woodhead, Danny
Here is the quote I would have put so kudos as follows...

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A draft pick or cash would've been better than Quinn because he was never worth a damn.

The Browns were going to cut him anyway!
If McD needed a backup, no problem. The problem is giving away a guy that proved he can play and we needed RB help. You forgive McD for having a QB backup but don't mention the fact we didnt have a good enough backup plan at RB. The guy turns out to be a starter where Quinn is nowhere close to being a starter for our team (or it seems the Browns as they canned his ass). McD then tried to save face by getting a suck of all sucks in Maroney that proved horrible. While Moreno was out, we had nothing back there. Over in Cleveland, Hillis was running over people, scoring and catching balls out of the backfield. He did everything and we had nothing.
HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND!
STOP BEING A BRICK!
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:34 PM   #3792
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Here is the quote I would have put so kudos as follows...



If McD needed a backup, no problem. The problem is giving away a guy that proved he can play and we needed RB help. You forgive McD for having a QB backup but don't mention the fact we didnt have a good enough backup plan at RB. The guy turns out to be a starter where Quinn is nowhere close to being a starter for our team (or it seems the Browns as they canned his ass). McD then tried to save face by getting a suck of all sucks in Maroney that proved horrible. While Moreno was out, we had nothing back there. Over in Cleveland, Hillis was running over people, scoring and catching balls out of the backfield. He did everything and we had nothing.
HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND!
STOP BEING A BRICK!
Except I'm not defending McD for not using Hillis to his potential. I'm just saying that if he wasn't going to use him on the field to begin with....Better to trade him for a back up QB than cut him or have him ride the pine like 2009. Especially when having that back up makes you feel more comfortable in drafting Tebow.

People like white RB's. People hate Quinn because there are some faggy pics on the internet. I get it. I just prefer the taking the long view on this.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:39 PM   #3793
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I avoided this thread for about 140 pages.... funny how nothing has changed since then.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:44 PM   #3794
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Except I'm not defending McD for not using Hillis to his potential. I'm just saying that if he wasn't going to use him on the field to begin with....Better to trade him for a back up QB than cut him or have him ride the pine like 2009. Especially when having that back up makes you feel more comfortable in drafting Tebow.

People like white RB's. People hate Quinn because there are some faggy pics on the internet. I get it. I just prefer the taking the long view on this.
But that is why this thread has grown so long. You had the McD nuthuggers try to tell us the trade was good. We pointed out it was a mistake and the proof is in the pudding. It was on McD alone that he didnt play him more and we saw what happened (even though we knew of it in 08) when he gets his chance. The fact he is white puts a special love interest to it as there isnt many that succeed. As a Broncos fan, I would be pissed off regardless of the man's color. Maybe McD didnt take to him because he was white and the chances of a white guy succeeding at RB is very miniscule. All I know is we paid the price for it. Luckily, McD is gone but his suckiness will live on for a few more years (see Ryan Leaf what he did to the Chargers for a few years).
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:11 PM   #3795
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But that is why this thread has grown so long. You had the McD nuthuggers try to tell us the trade was good. We pointed out it was a mistake and the proof is in the pudding. It was on McD alone that he didnt play him more and we saw what happened (even though we knew of it in 08) when he gets his chance. The fact he is white puts a special love interest to it as there isnt many that succeed. As a Broncos fan, I would be pissed off regardless of the man's color. Maybe McD didnt take to him because he was white and the chances of a white guy succeeding at RB is very miniscule. All I know is we paid the price for it. Luckily, McD is gone but his suckiness will live on for a few more years (see Ryan Leaf what he did to the Chargers for a few years).
Not really Hillis related...but I think Denver is going to bounce back rather fast.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:23 PM   #3796
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Not really Hillis related...but I think Denver is going to bounce back rather fast.
Justification?

Unfortunately, the way I see it, even our BEST players all have HUGE question marks on them.

And outside of those 6-7 guys, the rest of the team pretty much sucks.
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:34 PM   #3797
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But that is why this thread has grown so long. You had the McD nuthuggers try to tell us the trade was good. We pointed out it was a mistake and the proof is in the pudding. .
You're arguing two separate issues here.

The trade was good, from a value standpoint.

The decision not to play him? The decision to trade him in the first place? Not good....But I'm not arguing that.


As far as McD was concerned....Hillis was a means to an end. He got sh*t canned and the CBA didn't get worked out but It's obvious to me what he was going for with his QB's.

*Not taking a chance on Tebow with only Brandstater as a back up.
*Need to improve QB2
*Former 1st round QB with starting experience was available.
*QB2 upgraded
*Tebow drafted
*Orton to start 2010...Pump up his trade value
*Develop Tebow, Fix Quinn over the 2010 season and 2011 camps
*Trade Orton pre 2011 draft for more than he's ever been worth
*Unleash the Tebow in 2011
*Quinn is now a quality back-up after a year and a half with McD
*^^^Probably even starter quality (Orton-ish) if Tebow goes down
*Sign street FA for QB3
*QB situation set for a decade or more.

Could he have done all of that without trading Hillis? Sure, but if he didn't like him to begin with....He's killing two birds with one stone. Wish he would've not thrown in the 5th rounder but Hillis for Quinn is fine value wise.

Except on the 'Mane where people love white RB's and hate pretty boy QB's that have douchey pictures on the internetz.
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:39 PM   #3798
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and the whole thing starts over right.................NOW!
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:47 PM   #3799
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and the whole thing starts over right.................NOW!
Yea!!!
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:48 PM   #3800
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You're arguing two separate issues here.

The trade was good, from a value standpoint.

The decision not to play him? The decision to trade him in the first place? Not good....But I'm not arguing that.


As far as McD was concerned....Hillis was a means to an end. He got sh*t canned and the CBA didn't get worked out but It's obvious to me what he was going for with his QB's.

*Not taking a chance on Tebow with only Brandstater as a back up.
*Need to improve QB2
*Former 1st round QB with starting experience was available.
*QB2 upgraded
*Tebow drafted
*Orton to start 2010...Pump up his trade value
*Develop Tebow, Fix Quinn over the 2010 season and 2011 camps
*Trade Orton pre 2011 draft for more than he's ever been worth
*Unleash the Tebow in 2011
*Quinn is now a quality back-up after a year and a half with McD
*^^^Probably even starter quality (Orton-ish) if Tebow goes down
*Sign street FA for QB3
*QB situation set for a decade or more.

Could he have done all of that without trading Hillis? Sure, but if he didn't like him to begin with....He's killing two birds with one stone. Wish he would've not thrown in the 5th rounder but Hillis for Quinn is fine value wise.

Except on the 'Mane where people love white RB's and hate pretty boy QB's that have douchey pictures on the internetz.
Your timeline reads like a complicated conspiracy theory...
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