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Old 04-12-2011, 06:26 AM   #3751
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Really? When do you guys just admit McDaniels screwed up? Gimmick RB>3rd string, no play QB. What makes him gimmicky? The fact he can catch, block and run? I will take that for 16 games. Is it hard to admit that we should have kept him and had a pretty good tandem in Moreno and Hillis? Not only did we trade him for a zero yard passer last year, we also gave a better pick in exchange. We really need to run through this again?
Yeah, the value of the trade was just awful....especially in hindsight (many still thought Quinn could put it together and be the 1st round QB he was supposed to be). Hillis has been super overrated by the OM though. Which I suppose is par for the course. Player leaves, half the board thinks he sucks...the other half thinks he's a HOFer.
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:59 AM   #3752
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Really? When do you guys just admit McDaniels screwed up? Gimmick RB>3rd string, no play QB. What makes him gimmicky? The fact he can catch, block and run? I will take that for 16 games. Is it hard to admit that we should have kept him and had a pretty good tandem in Moreno and Hillis? Not only did we trade him for a zero yard passer last year, we also gave a better pick in exchange. We really need to run through this again?
Because McD didn't screw up at all if you like Tebow. Getting a legitimate back-up on the roster was essential in drafting Tebow. You're nucking futs if you think that Tebow gets drafted by Denver if the 2 QB's were Orton and Brandstater.

And the gimmick is the color of his skin. He's a run of the mill, dime a dozen back....But because he's white, people fawn over him.

See also: Woodhead, Danny
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:10 AM   #3753
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Because McD didn't screw up at all if you like Tebow. Getting a legitimate back-up on the roster was essential in drafting Tebow. You're nucking futs if you think that Tebow gets drafted by Denver if the 2 QB's were Orton and Brandstater.

And the gimmick is the color of his skin. He's a run of the mill, dime a dozen back....But because he's white, people fawn over him.

See also: Woodhead, Danny

I think it has more to do with the fact we won games with him as our starting running back.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:20 AM   #3754
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I think it has more to do with the fact we won games with him as our starting running back.
We won games with Selvin Young, Travis Henry & Ron Dayne also.

Feel free to point me to a 152 page thread about one of them.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:28 AM   #3755
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We won games with Selvin Young, Travis Henry & Ron Dayne also.

Feel free to point me to a 152 page thread about one of them.
None went on to have success with another team?

If it had been, say, Arian Foster showing flashes here, and we traded him for a completely non-productive player, and he went on to have the season he did down in Houston, it'd be a 200 page thread, imo.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:36 AM   #3756
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Because McD didn't screw up at all if you like Tebow. Getting a legitimate back-up on the roster was essential in drafting Tebow. You're nucking futs if you think that Tebow gets drafted by Denver if the 2 QB's were Orton and Brandstater.

And the gimmick is the color of his skin. He's a run of the mill, dime a dozen back....But because he's white, people fawn over him.

See also: Woodhead, Danny
We got a legitimate backup? What position? Water boy?
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:39 AM   #3757
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We got a legitimate backup? What position? Water boy?
Sorry...A perceived legitimate back up. A former first round pick with game starts under his belt certainly qualifies as that.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:40 AM   #3758
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Sorry...A perceived legitimate back up. A former first round pick with game starts under his belt certainly qualifies as that.
Is that the criteria? Crap, I wonder if we can trade with the Raiders to get Jarvis Moss back.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:45 AM   #3759
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Someone get Jamarcus Russel on the phone.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:47 AM   #3760
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Is that the criteria? Crap, I wonder if we can trade with the Raiders to get Jarvis Moss back.
Thanks for proving my point...Moss was definitely perceived as at least a legitimate back-up by the Raiders for that exact criteria.

Anyway....You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what Brady Quinn is or isn't, was or wasn't. What matters is that McD doesn't draft Tebow with only Brandstater to back up Orton.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:49 AM   #3761
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Thanks for proving my point...Moss was definitely perceived as at least a legitimate back-up by the Raiders for that exact criteria.

Anyway....You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what Brady Quinn is or isn't, was or wasn't. What matters is that McD doesn't draft Tebow with only Brandstater to back up Orton.
Wellllllllllllllll... in your analogy, we could've gotten Michael Bush from them for Moss then?
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:51 AM   #3762
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Anyway....You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what Brady Quinn is or isn't, was or wasn't. What matters is that McD doesn't draft Tebow with only Brandstater to back up Orton.

Says who? That's nothing but guesswork.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:55 AM   #3763
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Thanks for proving my point...Moss was definitely perceived as at least a legitimate back-up by the Raiders for that exact criteria.

Anyway....You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what Brady Quinn is or isn't, was or wasn't. What matters is that McD doesn't draft Tebow with only Brandstater to back up Orton.
Conjecture and hypotheticals. Your argument has officially fallen apart.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:02 AM   #3764
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Says who? That's nothing but guesswork.
Says McD.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:09 AM   #3765
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Wellllllllllllllll... in your analogy, we could've gotten Michael Bush from them for Moss then?
If back up DE's were as important as back up QB's....AND Oakland really felt they needed said back-up DE before they could take a chance on drafting the best college DE ever but was controversial and perceived to be a NFL project.....AND Bush was in the doghouse to begin with....

Then yeah...maybe.

It's too bad that that isn't remotely the case.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:27 AM   #3766
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If back up DE's were as important as back up QB's....AND Oakland really felt they needed said back-up DE before they could take a chance on drafting the best college DE ever but was controversial and perceived to be a NFL project.....AND Bush was in the doghouse to begin with....

Then yeah...maybe.

It's too bad that that isn't remotely the case.
Considering back up DE's see the field, they're much more important than back up QBs as shown by the NFL teams investment in them as opposed to sweet back ups across the NFL like Curtis Painter, Brian Hoyer, Matt Flynn etc
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:15 AM   #3767
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None went on to have success with another team?

If it had been, say, Arian Foster showing flashes here, and we traded him for a completely non-productive player, and he went on to have the season he did down in Houston, it'd be a 200 page thread, imo.
I think we need a 200 page thread for Reuben Droughns
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:20 AM   #3768
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I think we need a 200 page thread for Reuben Droughns
I think that's a BETTER comparison, but still pretty terrible:

Trading Droughns netted two immediate starters that contributed to a 13-3 season and an AFCCG berth and Denver rushed for over 2500 yards.

With the Hillis trade, we netted 0 starters, finished 2nd worse in the NFL (WORST, imo, if you factor in schedule strength), and rushed for a full 1000 yards less than 2005.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:22 AM   #3769
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A draft pick or cash would've been better than Quinn because he was never worth a damn.

The Browns were going to cut him anyway!
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:39 AM   #3770
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I think that's a BETTER comparison, but still pretty terrible:

Trading Droughns netted two immediate starters that contributed to a 13-3 season and an AFCCG berth and Denver rushed for over 2500 yards.

With the Hillis trade, we netted 0 starters, finished 2nd worse in the NFL (WORST, imo, if you factor in schedule strength), and rushed for a full 1000 yards less than 2005.
Oh I'm totally not arguing compensation (showing my willingness to talk and contribute without addressing the conversation at hand). I just think people focus too much on Hillis being great (I think he's okay), you didn't hear a lot of that for Droughns (I did do my fair share of b****ing about how terribly I thought Mike Anderson was handled here). It's not that Hillis is so great, it's that we got rid of a potential contributor for jack ****.

That said, Hillis wasn't going to be much of a contributor under McD anyway though. It would be nice to have him now, over a waste of space bust QB, but at the time of the trade McD was the coach of the immediate future. Meaning they were both gonna be useless. The logic was there at the time, trade a guy he isn't going to use for a guy he might.

I guess my point is, Hillis isn't any more special than Droughns really. I understand how it sucks that we don't have him and got nothing in return though.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:44 AM   #3771
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Oh I'm totally not arguing compensation (showing my willingness to talk and contribute without addressing the conversation at hand). I just think people focus too much on Hillis being great (I think he's okay), you didn't hear a lot of that for Droughns (I did do my fair share of b****ing about how terribly I thought Mike Anderson was handled here). It's not that Hillis is so great, it's that we got rid of a potential contributor for jack ****.

That said, Hillis wasn't going to be much of a contributor under McD anyway though. It would be nice to have him now, over a waste of space bust QB, but at the time of the trade McD was the coach of the immediate future. Meaning they were both gonna be useless. The logic was there at the time, trade a guy he isn't going to use for a guy he might.

I guess my point is, Hillis isn't any more special than Droughns really. I understand how it sucks that we don't have him and got nothing in return though.
The issue isn't ONLY compensation. It's also how we managed to have the BEST rushing season in recent Denver history (maybe ever, actually. We rushed for even more yards in 2005 than we did in TD's 2k season, ftr) AFTER trading Droughns, and the WORST after trading Hillis.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:55 AM   #3772
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Yeah, the value of the trade was just awful....especially in hindsight (many still thought Quinn could put it together and be the 1st round QB he was supposed to be). Hillis has been super overrated by the OM though. Which I suppose is par for the course. Player leaves, half the board thinks he sucks...the other half thinks he's a HOFer.
He hasn't been overrated on the OM. Only 30% thought he would go over 1200. He's been underrated if anything.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthr...ghlight=hillis
He will start at RB and rush for over 1200 yards. The Browns fans will love this guy 30.00%
he will see time as a short yardage power back and become a valuable option for the Browns 44.17%
He will struggle to learn the offense in Cleveland stick around for a season or two than be cut 22.50%
He will be a late training camp cut. 3.33%
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:16 AM   #3773
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The issue isn't ONLY compensation. It's also how we managed to have the BEST rushing season in recent Denver history (maybe ever, actually. We rushed for even more yards in 2005 than we did in TD's 2k season, ftr) AFTER trading Droughns, and the WORST after trading Hillis.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is there...it's rather abstract. Both players were fullbacks forced into the TB role through injury. Droughns contributed more during his one season running the ball than Hillis did in his 4 games or so (both as Broncos). Droughns went and followed it up by being the first Browns running back since the 80's to crack 1000 yards. 2005 saw the return of my boy Anderson, who is still the best back we've had since TD IMO.

From 2008 to 2009 Broncos running game went down a whole 30 yards. The Browns of 2009 actually had a better running game than in 2010. So lets go with that this time if you like. The Addition of Droughns to the Browns improved their team, while the addition of Hillis did not.

See, this is not a case of Hillis being special in anyway. It's a case of getting no compensation. Along with knowing that now we will probably have a system that Hillis could have been used in...as a good compliment...not the next Earl Campbell (). People can **** talk McD's mishandling of the running game all they want...Hillis wasn't the fix though.
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:48 AM   #3774
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I'm not sure exactly what the point is there...it's rather abstract. Both players were fullbacks forced into the TB role through injury. Droughns contributed more during his one season running the ball than Hillis did in his 4 games or so (both as Broncos). Droughns went and followed it up by being the first Browns running back since the 80's to crack 1000 yards. 2005 saw the return of my boy Anderson, who is still the best back we've had since TD IMO.
I guess you forgot about Portis?

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From 2008 to 2009 Broncos running game went down a whole 30 yards. The Browns of 2009 actually had a better running game than in 2010. So lets go with that this time if you like. The Addition of Droughns to the Browns improved their team, while the addition of Hillis did not.
And from 2004 to 2005 the Broncos running game not only didn't skip a beat, but improved several hundred yards.

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See, this is not a case of Hillis being special in anyway. It's a case of getting no compensation. Along with knowing that now we will probably have a system that Hillis could have been used in...as a good compliment...not the next Earl Campbell (). People can **** talk McD's mishandling of the running game all they want...Hillis wasn't the fix though.
It's a case of getting no compensation and EXTREMELY amplified by the lack of success comparatively. I don't even see how you can possibly argue that.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:10 PM   #3775
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I guess you forgot about Portis?

And from 2004 to 2005 the Broncos running game not only didn't skip a beat, but improved several hundred yards.

It's a case of getting no compensation and EXTREMELY amplified by the lack of success comparatively. I don't even see how you can possibly argue that.
I wasn't a Portis fan, that's a taste thing though.

I never argued that Denver's run game was better in 2005...I just don't see why that matters in the Hillis discussion. Droughns did more for Denver than Hillis ever did, I don't see how that can be argued. Just because Denver managed to replace him successfully doesn't change that.

As for your rather abstract comparison of running success before and after Hillis...it's easy to argue. ****, Hillis is a guy that has contributed a whole 600 yards to the Denver Broncos. Yep, that's it...600 total yards ever. This is the guy who's very presence is the difference between a great running game and a poor one? Give me a break. The difference between a great running game and Denver's from last year was Mcd and Shanahan, simple as that.
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