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Old 11-24-2009, 07:19 AM   #1
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Default Well, the scheme advantages are over...

I said in an thread earlier this year that the NFL usually loses major scheme advantages in weeks 4 and 10. For this team, it looks like week six was a killer week for DEN. Teams started to use the No huddle offense to keep mediocre players on the field and deny the defense fresh subs to bolster the situational play of the defense. The offense started to get much worse play from its OL as teams finally caught on to the pass protection and running scheme changes they have changed. Injuries have shown the lack of depth at OT and QB to execute the new scheme.

So, what we have now is a team that was playing much better than the sum of its parts in the earlier stages of the year get nullified by teams who were able to expose its mediocre players without their scheme advantages. I was wrong earlier to think 6 weeks was enough time to call this a solid team, it just took longer than I thought for teams to expose the poor players on defense. It also took longer than usual to expose the offense and their ineffectiveness up front, especially without good QB play in the second half the last few weeks.

Overall, I am very disappointed to find that the players were not able to keep up such a high level of play without their scheme advantages. However, we have seen a lot of improvement in areas that really needed improvement. Right now, this is an average NFL team all over again. Yet, it is very different from the pushover team DEN has been the last few years. The sad thing is how exposed they have been the last few weeks. I wonder how much they actually can change down the stretch to hide those weaknesses. That was supposed to be a strength of this team. They were supposed to be able to utilize multidimensional gameplans on both sides of the ball week to week.

That is what the next 6 weeks will always show. The last 6 weeks of the season always favor the players over the systems. Teams know what you are and where you struggle and will devise creative ways to influence matchups. I just pray we will get to see players who learn and get better at what they struggle to do. That is what the next 6 weeks should be about for DEN. Find the players who can and will execute when its just about outplaying the guy in front of you.
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:41 AM   #2
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We all knew this was coming, there are to many "smart" folks in the league not to figure out what going when comes to any team. My biggest concern is that appears that McDaniels and McCoy aren't finding ways to get the playmakers into the game. It would be nice to get Scheffer involved somehow, he give us such an advantage with his ability to go vertical and force the defense to respect what he does.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:43 PM   #3
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Bump for a relevant thread.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:05 PM   #4
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didnt we know this coming into the season? In all honesty, i thought we would start off with some tough losses and get better as the team bought into the schemes. This team is VASTLY undertalented on both sides of the ball, in my opinion. We were playing perfect football for a while and protecting the ball and stopping 3rd down conversions.

lately, we are getting KILLED in the turnover battle and giving up a ton of 3rd downs. As a team that doesnt have the talent to mask those warts, the losses have begun to follow suit. Look for us begin blitzing a lot more and taking chances to try and force turnovers, something we really didnt try and do against SD. I would also liek to see us get more conservative on offense (I know everyone wants us to go downfield but we arent built for it) Set us up with some nice 3rd and shorts, so we can keep opposing Ds on their heels....nothing is better than a play action on 3rd and 2 to catch them off guard

not all is lost, but it will take a LOT to make the playoffs...in my mind we need a few teams to implode (baltimore and Jacksonville hopefully)
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:07 PM   #5
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That is what the next 6 weeks will always show. The last 6 weeks of the season always favor the players over the systems. Teams know what you are and where you struggle and will devise creative ways to influence matchups. I just pray we will get to see players who learn and get better at what they struggle to do. That is what the next 6 weeks should be about for DEN. Find the players who can and will execute when its just about outplaying the guy in front of you.
Hey, Med12 --

I think this time still has a couple wins left in them over the next six weeks, but I'll be surprised if it's much more than that. If they can finish the season at 8-8 or 9-7, I'll call it a successful year.

We had a lot of turnover last off-season; that was McD cutting the deadwood like Jamie Winborn and Nate Webster. I'm expecting to see almost as much turnover again in the coming offseason for guys like Ben Hamilton and Peyton Hillis. The next round of turnover will be replacing the one-dimensional players who (for whatever reason) are not able to grasp and make the weekly adjustments that McD and Nolan want to make.

I don't think we've yet seen the full range of the adjustments and game plans that McD can bring to the table. That's because some of the players were "just good enough" to make the team this year with what McD asked of them. With more asked of them in the next offseason, some won't be able to keep up. They won't be around much longer. Next year I'm expecting to see just about as much change from this year as this year was from last year.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:19 PM   #6
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We all knew this was coming, there are to many "smart" folks in the league not to figure out what going when comes to any team. My biggest concern is that appears that McDaniels and McCoy aren't finding ways to get the playmakers into the game. It would be nice to get Scheffer involved somehow, he give us such an advantage with his ability to go vertical and force the defense to respect what he does.
We need to play Hillis more. He is our savior. He would have over 1200 yards by now.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:20 PM   #7
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This is the same logic I tried to apply against Mike Shanahan's record the past decade and we met with resistance even name calling.

No biggie as I was confindent in my premise that teams game plan the last 4 opponents so weeks 5-16 tells more about a team than weeks 1-4

As far as this year, the team need to play a near flawless game to win.

I have a feeling even if Moreno scores and Barrett catches the on sides kick SD would have just turned it up a notch on offense and we would have lost 23-13 or 26-13 . River could throw short, intermediate and deep and he didn't even throw one screen their bread and butter.

The WASH game was really the backbreaker with the stupid ST TD. Simms was horrible but down by 10 instead of 3 I think Wahsington may have gone to more passing and less running
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:28 PM   #8
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thanks med
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:29 PM   #9
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didnt we know this coming into the season? In all honesty, i thought we would start off with some tough losses and get better as the team bought into the schemes. This team is VASTLY undertalented on both sides of the ball, in my opinion. We were playing perfect football for a while and protecting the ball and stopping 3rd down conversions.

lately, we are getting KILLED in the turnover battle and giving up a ton of 3rd downs. As a team that doesnt have the talent to mask those warts, the losses have begun to follow suit. Look for us begin blitzing a lot more and taking chances to try and force turnovers, something we really didnt try and do against SD. I would also liek to see us get more conservative on offense (I know everyone wants us to go downfield but we arent built for it) Set us up with some nice 3rd and shorts, so we can keep opposing Ds on their heels....nothing is better than a play action on 3rd and 2 to catch them off guard

not all is lost, but it will take a LOT to make the playoffs...in my mind we need a few teams to implode (baltimore and Jacksonville hopefully)

No it isn't. This team was a top 5 talented team offensively headed into the offseason, and that is without the Moreno pick. Stop making excuses.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:33 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by vancejohnson82 View Post
didnt we know this coming into the season? In all honesty, i thought we would start off with some tough losses and get better as the team bought into the schemes. This team is VASTLY undertalented on both sides of the ball, in my opinion. We were playing perfect football for a while and protecting the ball and stopping 3rd down conversions.

lately, we are getting KILLED in the turnover battle and giving up a ton of 3rd downs. As a team that doesnt have the talent to mask those warts, the losses have begun to follow suit. Look for us begin blitzing a lot more and taking chances to try and force turnovers, something we really didnt try and do against SD. I would also liek to see us get more conservative on offense (I know everyone wants us to go downfield but we arent built for it) Set us up with some nice 3rd and shorts, so we can keep opposing Ds on their heels....nothing is better than a play action on 3rd and 2 to catch them off guard

not all is lost, but it will take a LOT to make the playoffs...in my mind we need a few teams to implode (baltimore and Jacksonville hopefully)
What I knew coming into the season was that we had a club with a borderline retarded defense and a top flight offense and that tossing the QB in favor of an inferior replacement wasn't the answer to the team's problems. Our problems on offense begin and end with McKid. Period.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:37 PM   #11
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No it isn't. This team was a top 5 talented team offensively headed into the offseason, and that is without the Moreno pick. Stop making excuses.
what a joke....the O-line is old and starting to fall apart due to injuries this year....we had NO RB before we drafted Moreno...

adn the problem with this team was DEFENSE...there was no quick fix for that...you really want to tell me we have top NFL talent on that side of the ball??

our best players are all on the wrong side of 30 and I doubt anyone outside of Denver could name our defensive line

nobody is making excuses here....we have overachieved to this point in the season its just that some of you refuse to see that
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:43 PM   #12
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what a joke....the O-line is old and starting to fall apart due to injuries this year....we had NO RB before we drafted Moreno...

adn the problem with this team was DEFENSE...there was no quick fix for that...you really want to tell me we have top NFL talent on that side of the ball??

our best players are all on the wrong side of 30 and I doubt anyone outside of Denver could name our defensive line

nobody is making excuses here....we have overachieved to this point in the season its just that some of you refuse to see that
We have 3 out 5 player on the offense line that have played less then 4 years? how is that old? In particular the LT is only in his second year and only going to get better. Meanwhile there is some depth on the oline with Olson and Polumbus. We need another guard and center but that doesn't mean the offense line is done. Here are all the guys under 30 that play makers for this team-

Marshall
Williams
Royal
Scheffer
Moreno
Clady
Harris
Dumervil
Larson
Woodyard
Kuper
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:48 PM   #13
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This team was a top 5 talented team offensively headed into the offseason...
I'm not sure this is true. I think our O-line is smallish and not physical enought and this has been a problem against the better and more physical teams for years. This year, trying to run a scheme that doesn't best hide our O-lines flaws, this problem is being fully exposed. Now mix in a QB who really needs the help of a non-existent running game and we've got big problems.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:51 PM   #14
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Its almost like a certain Chiefs fan said something about scheming and how opposing teams will start to get an advantage RIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST LOSS. I know, I was a troll at the time and as it turns out I was correct in wanting to bet anyone on how Orton had played his best six game stretch of any time in the season and a certain someone kept telling me how they hadnt peeked and his best football was ahead of him....

As I said then, McD will begin to make his adjustments aftera couple weeks and I think he is smart enough to stay ahead of the curve just a bit.

All I got to say is you are welcome!

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Old 11-24-2009, 02:15 PM   #15
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It is players (and depth) over scheme. I always go back to that same off tackle run that Joe Gibbs had the Hogs and Riggins run. Everybody knew they were going to do it, everybody schemed against it, and they rode that play to the SB. Nobody could stop it. The Elway bootleg or the ZBS with TD and the Zimmerman-Jones line. Everybody knew it was going to come and nobody could do anything to stop it. Get the players who can execute and shove it down the oppositions' throats. Football is simple.
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:36 PM   #16
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Its almost like a certain Chiefs fan said something about scheming and how opposing teams will start to get an advantage RIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST LOSS. I know, I was a troll at the time and as it turns out I was correct in wanting to bet anyone on how Orton had played his best six game stretch of any time in the season and a certain someone kept telling me how they hadnt peeked and his best football was ahead of him....

As I said then, McD will begin to make his adjustments aftera couple weeks and I think he is smart enough to stay ahead of the curve just a bit.

All I got to say is you are welcome!
That's why, outside of a few select posters, I don't come to this board for football discussion any longer.

Med's been saying this since the pre-season. People called him out on it as the 6 game win streak was going on.

Then, miracously, now after what's happened over the last month, all these same posters are coming in here and saying they knew all along we couldn't keep up the pace, etc. It's humorous I suppose.
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Old 11-24-2009, 03:03 PM   #17
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I'm not sure this is true. I think our O-line is smallish and not physical enought and this has been a problem against the better and more physical teams for years. This year, trying to run a scheme that doesn't best hide our O-lines flaws, this problem is being fully exposed. Now mix in a QB who really needs the help of a non-existent running game and we've got big problems.
We totally agree on the scheme change being the cause of the majority of problems, but I liken it more to having Arod on your team and asking him to bunt. If the dude is good at hitting home runs, let him hit more runs. No need to reinvent the wheel.

This team was perfectly built to run at least a partly zone blocking-style scheme. It's not like it wasn't working. If it was proven to have failed, then so be it, blow it up. ZBS was the best thing to ever happen in Denver, and I don't see the reason for killing it off, just like if a new coach comes to pittsburgh, you don't suddenly try to make them into the greatest show on turf. You use what they do to your advantage- play hard nosed defense- and go from there.

The Denver Broncos are known for running the ball exceptionally well behind a smart, agile, athletic offensive line. It works. The players are young for the most part and understand, if not thrive in it. Too many players are now looking like they are completely lost after having shown flashes of brilliance in the past few years- Hillis, Royal, Sheffler come to mind specifically.

Seems more like an ego issue to me more than anything else. Hearing about McDaniels telling the Chargers LBs that "we own you" en route to a home 32-3 shellacking leads me to believe that his ego might be getting in the way of making good, sound football decisions.

Hopefully I am wrong, and hopefully he begins to re-implement what works.

Last edited by colonelbeef; 11-24-2009 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 11-24-2009, 03:55 PM   #18
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It is players (and depth) over scheme. I always go back to that same off tackle run that Joe Gibbs had the Hogs and Riggins run. Everybody knew they were going to do it, everybody schemed against it, and they rode that play to the SB. Nobody could stop it. The Elway bootleg or the ZBS with TD and the Zimmerman-Jones line. Everybody knew it was going to come and nobody could do anything to stop it. Get the players who can execute and shove it down the oppositions' throats. Football is simple.
Football is simple if you have better players across the board than the other team. However, the NFL has more talent than the bad teams are given credit. There is not a team in the NFL that is better than every other team 22 deep every play, like College used to be.

What Makes pro football so damn hard to figure is how mental the game is versus just pure athletic talent. However, from week 11 the skill level of the players is so much more important than the scheme and play selection than the first 10 games.

Very few people here realize how complex every single play of an NFL game is compared to the HS and college games many here may be familiar. The fundamentals are still the same, but that is it. The systems that NFL teams actually run are so much more complex and involve so many more decisions pre and post snap its not even funny. Even the simplest NFL schemes today are 10 times more complex than college, and the reason is they have more time to devote to it. The schemes all have minute tweaks for every situation, opponent, and player.

The whole reason for this discussion is that DEN rode that excellent advantage early and they are now in a situation where they have to do something different than what got them here. Personally, I am apalled at how the defense seems to be reverting back to its read and react tendencies. What made them fun to watch was the aggressive style and playcalling they brought versus previous years. It was almost as fun as the second half of the 2005 AFCC team defense. Right now, they need to get back to making adjustments and start anticipating what and how teams plan to attack them better. The excellent defensive gameplanning and halftime adjustments have all disappeared. That needs to be changed and quick.

Offensively, they are breaking down right at the LOS. I would not be shocked to see some more ZBS and the pass protections they used early last year down the stretch. We know those guys can do it, they need to change it up a bit and stop being so damn predictable. In short, they need someone to self scout their ass better and make some set up plays. However, they have to get better up front if they want to get better. The OL should not be the reason this team is struggling offensively. It just should not be.
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Old 11-24-2009, 04:43 PM   #19
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Seems more like an ego issue to me more than anything else.
That's certainly possible. I also think he feels that running the ZBS isn't/wasn't going to get it done against the better, more physical teams we'd have to beat in the playoffs. That's not the scheme he ran in NE, it's not the scheme he believes in, it's not the scheme he's comfortable with. The problem is this line was built to run that scheme. It's fine to start making the transition but you probably have to use the scheme that best suits the talent as at least part of your game plan. Regardless, I think the interior of the line needs to get bigger and stronger this offseason.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:11 PM   #20
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Personally, I am apalled at how the defense seems to be reverting back to its read and react tendencies.

Offensively, they are breaking down right at the LOS. I would not be shocked to see some more ZBS and the pass protections they used early last year down the stretch.
Where did the creative blitzing go? Are we that afraid of the big play? Our only legitimate wins this year came on well timed run and pass blitzes.

I would personally love to see more ZBS because I think we can run well. But Orton might as well be wearing concrete shoes. I miss Cutler's feet much more than his arm in this regard.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:49 PM   #21
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That's why, outside of a few select posters, I don't come to this board for football discussion any longer.

Med's been saying this since the pre-season. People called him out on it as the 6 game win streak was going on.

Then, miracously, now after what's happened over the last month, all these same posters are coming in here and saying they knew all along we couldn't keep up the pace, etc. It's humorous I suppose.
For the record, I wasnt even here in preseason. So put that one to rest son.

It was meant in good fun, I think Med knows that. If you couldnt pick it up, I dont know what to tell you.

I was poking fun at med because we had a discussion on this topic in a previous thread.

But since you dont know what the hell you are talking about, heres a link to the thread so you can understand why I was poking fun. There are some true jewels in that thread from both of us.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthr...t=86135&page=2

my first post is #50, take a few minutes to read through it so you dont attack a straw man again with ignorance.

Id like to add that you get butthurt wayyyyyy to easy. Take a mydol and get back to me, playa!


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Old 11-24-2009, 10:08 PM   #22
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I hear what you are saying about the scheme and all and I agree that is partly true but not entirely. I honestly think it has been the big mistakes that have killed this team. You don't game plan for mistakes, they just happen when you are not prepared, don't know the situation and poor execution (and the occasional awesome play by the other guys who get paid also). For example, Moreno did not need to try and extend that ball over the goal line with a crowd of people there, on only 1st down. That's knowing the situation. The melt down in Washington on the fake kick was an example of poor execution at it's finest. They even knew the fake was coming and still could not execute a play to stop it (probably somebody forgot an assignment).

So yeah, I think partly it is people are learning what we do best but mistakes and also injuries do play their part.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:16 PM   #23
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What I knew coming into the season was that we had a club with a borderline retarded defense and a top flight offense and that tossing the QB in favor of an inferior replacement wasn't the answer to the team's problems. Our problems on offense begin and end with McKid. Period.
You are thinking of some other team. The offense we had last season was not a "top flight" unit. They were 16th of scoring for the season, and 24th over the final 13 games. Also committed the second most turnovers in the league. Hardly a "top flight" group. But that myth persists in spite of the facts.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:24 PM   #24
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You are thinking of some other team. The offense we had last season was not a "top flight" unit. They were 16th of scoring for the season, and 24th over the final 13 games. Also committed the second most turnovers in the league. Hardly a "top flight" group. But that myth persists in spite of the facts.
Yeah..........but they were also #2 in offensive yardage. #3 passing....#12 rushing with a different back every week due to injury.

Thats a pretty top flight unit in most peoples terms.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:31 PM   #25
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Yeah..........but they were also #2 in offensive yardage. #3 passing....#12 rushing with a different back every week due to injury.

Thats a pretty top flight unit in most peoples terms.
Scoring is what makes you a top flight unit in reality, not perception. They were only 16th in that department. And after a hot start in the first three games, they were only 24th over the final 13 games. Yardage is window dressing.
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