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Old 11-11-2009, 10:34 AM   #1
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Default Is the offense buckling under McDaniels' stubbornness?

OK, first of all, McDaniels deserves a lot of credit for the 6-0 start, so this isnt about him being garbage. And he has received a lot of praise for it. But it cuts both ways.

A lot of people are now complaining about a lack of ZBS plays. Ive been trying to give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt in attributing it to a Hamilton hamstring injury. Remember that McDaniels said he wants to run both. Or does he? Is he just reverting back to what he knows from where he came from? NE didnt run a lot of ZBS. Is this stubbornness costing us in the running game?

Also, there has been pressure up the middle on Orton. But one thing you can do to counter this is move the pocket. Have the QB roll out. But we havent seen a lot of this either. Rolling out was fairly common in the old system. So then, is this another instance of stubbornness bogging down the offense?

And the above two issues might be affecting deep throws to back the defense off the LOS. Or is it just Orton choosing (or he is coached up) not to?

Remember when our WRs was a strength of our team? Remember when our offensive line was a strength of our team?
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:38 AM   #2
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:40 AM   #3
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Sorry to steal your Sunday but McDaniels is not infallible and he's not above reproach.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:45 AM   #4
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I suppose it's a valid question. Every coach to a certain extent that truly believes in his own system, could get "stubborn" about sticking to it faithfully.

But it is also a question we'll never know the answer to. I don't suppose Josh will come out and say, "Yeah, I've been refusing to run the ZBS b/c my system just works better......I just KNOW IT DOES, damn it! **** you! Yes, I'm being stubborn! What are you going to do about it?!?!"

Regardless of what the real reason is of our lack of mixing in the ZBS.....we won't know.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:46 AM   #5
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Sorry to steal your Sunday but McDaniels is not infallible and he's not above reproach.
I didn't even read your post, sorry.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:47 AM   #6
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:48 AM   #7
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I didn't even read your post, sorry.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:50 AM   #8
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Regardless of what the real reason is of our lack of mixing in the ZBS.....we won't know.
I wonder if it goes back to something that was touched upon here last week. Most here believe that if Shanny gets a job next year, he'll steal away Dennison and RBs coach Bobby Turner. If so, McDaniels isn't left with a whole lot of coaches who are trusted, experienced and/or well versed in the ZBS. Maybe he's simply planning ahead for the full player AND coaching overhaul that he knew would take 2-3 years to fully realize and already has some new coaches in mind to take over the running game should Shanny return to the NFL.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:50 AM   #9
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I didn't even read your post, sorry.
Its fine. Its not like I had high expecations from you anyway.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:55 AM   #10
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:14 AM   #11
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...there has been pressure up the middle on Orton. But one thing you can do to counter this is move the pocket. Have the QB roll out. But we havent seen a lot of this either. Rolling out was fairly common in the old system. So then, is this another instance of stubbornness bogging down the offense?
I haven't seen Orton show much ability to throw on the move so I'm not sure this is a good option unfortunately.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:52 AM   #12
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Everyone on offense did not suddenly get worse. The problem is Orton makes everyones job a lot harder and he doesn't release the ball down field to the receivers. They do have deep routes called all the time. We have guys open down field a lot. Orton either doesn't trust himself or he is being coached to play an ultra conservative game. He makes it much harder on the line because he has no idea how to work a pocket. Just look at this last game when he walked into a blocked defender to give him a sack...
As for the run game, it has been a problem since last year. We had a lot of trouble running when we needed, in short yardage situations, or just against bigger defenses. The only reason our ypc was so high is that we would throw 45 times a game and that helped limit the number of defenders playing close to the line. We still could never run against 8 man fronts or in any short yardage situations. To fix this, we need to address the interior of the o-line. I don't think any system will make a big impact.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:55 AM   #13
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I haven't seen Orton show much ability to throw on the move so I'm not sure this is a good option unfortunately.
Also this. That isn't even close to being an option with Orton. I have yet to see him move out of the pocket and make a good throw. He may be able to but I'm not sure what we have seen from him that makes you think he can.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:58 AM   #14
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No, McDaniels is not above reproach. But neither are you, lex, and you should expect this kind of pushback when you start a bull**** thread.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:00 PM   #15
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I haven't seen Orton show much ability to throw on the move so I'm not sure this is a good option unfortunately.
Correct. McDaniels now knows the players and their limitations, he is most certainly trying to tailor the playcalling to their strengths. Unfortunately throwing the ball downfield and hitting receivers in stride is not something Orton is capable of doing with any consistency, and the game planning reflects that.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:04 PM   #16
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Again... I just don't understand what's so difficult about this.

The offense has been struggling because teams are getting pressure straight up the middle. There is no time to throw the ball deep. There is no time to setup an offense. The defense is penetrating directly into the backfield, so establishing a running game is nearly impossible. Defense in the NFL is really easy when you are able to create mismatches at the line of scrimmage and completely exploit them. That you don't have a running back who is particularly competent in pass protection just makes your issues worse.

The best you can do is try to throw screens or run outside to loosen things up, but when you have the safeties that these teams have....well.... that doesn't work either. The only way you beat these defenses is through excellent interior pass protection, and this team just doesn't have the talent to do that. We need a center and a guard. Badly.

The offenses issues are really the result of playing the two best defensive front-7's in the league in back to back weeks. Just watch, everything will be magically 'fixed' this week. Washington doesn't bring anything resembling that level of physical football to the table.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:04 PM   #17
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Everyone on offense did not suddenly get worse. The problem is Orton makes everyones job a lot harder and he doesn't release the ball down field to the receivers. They do have deep routes called all the time. We have guys open down field a lot. Orton either doesn't trust himself or he is being coached to play an ultra conservative game. He makes it much harder on the line because he has no idea how to work a pocket. Just look at this last game when he walked into a blocked defender to give him a sack...
As for the run game, it has been a problem since last year. We had a lot of trouble running when we needed, in short yardage situations, or just against bigger defenses. The only reason our ypc was so high is that we would throw 45 times a game and that helped limit the number of defenders playing close to the line. We still could never run against 8 man fronts or in any short yardage situations. To fix this, we need to address the interior of the o-line. I don't think any system will make a big impact.
Well said.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:05 PM   #18
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As for the run game, it has been a problem since last year. We had a lot of trouble running when we needed, in short yardage situations, or just against bigger defenses. The only reason our ypc was so high is that we would throw 45 times a game and that helped limit the number of defenders playing close to the line. We still could never run against 8 man fronts or in any short yardage situations. To fix this, we need to address the interior of the o-line. I don't think any system will make a big impact.
I agree and I don't think a lot of people realize this. It isn't an entirely new problem but I think it's been more glaringly apparent the last couple of games than I can ever recall.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:06 PM   #19
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Again... I just don't understand what's so difficult about this.

The offense has been struggling because teams are getting pressure straight up the middle. There is no time to throw the ball deep. There is no time to setup an offense. The defense is penetrating directly into the backfield, so establishing a running game is nearly impossible. Defense in the NFL is really easy when you are able to create mismatches at the line of scrimmage and completely exploit them. That you don't have a running back who is particularly competent in pass protection just makes your issues worse.

The offenses issues are really the result of playing the two best defensive front-7's in the league in back to back weeks. Just watch, everything will be magically 'fixed' this week. Washington doesn't bring anything resembling that level of physical football to the table.
the OL is not preforming nearly as badly as you seem to think. Orton has had plenty of time to make his reads and throws. Take a look back at some of the sacks, he has time to check down 4 receivers before he stumbles into a defender
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:11 PM   #20
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I agree and I don't think a lot of people realize this. It isn't an entirely new problem but I think it's been more glaringly apparent the last couple of games than I can ever recall.
Last year could be at least partially attributed to the fact that the starting RB was at times a FB, or even worse, some loser from a kiosk at the local mall (literally) not to mention a rook LT and 1st year starting RT to go along with relatively green Kuper.

Far less excuses this year. Really, the only major difference, aside from the high #1 spent on Moreno who hasn't shown much, is the QB.

Lets see... only major personnel change is the change from Cutler to Orton, and now the run game AND passing game have gone to ****... hmm....


Occam's razor -the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion, thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one.

the reason the offense is struggling to score points is mainly because of Orton and his limitations. This is a better team with a better QB, and Cutler was a better QB. McDaniels has to hold back on the playbook and dink us to infinity because Orton cannot get down the field, period.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:16 PM   #21
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Last year could be at least partially attributed to the fact that the starting RB was at times a FB, or even worse, some loser from a kiosk at the local mall (literally) not to mention a rook LT and 1st year starting RT to go along with relatively green Kuper.

Far less excuses this year. Really, the only major difference, aside from the high #1 spent on Moreno who hasn't shown much, is the QB.

Lets see... only major personnel change is the change from Cutler to Orton, and now the run game AND passing game have gone to ****... hmm....


Occam's razor -the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion, thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one.

the reason the offense is struggling to score points is mainly because of Orton and his limitations. This is a better team with a better QB, and Cutler was a better QB. McDaniels has to hold back on the playbook and dink us to infinity because Orton cannot get down the field, period.
the 49ers of the 80's and 90's made their whole reputation on the "dink & dunk" quick slant to the WR.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:21 PM   #22
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the 49ers of the 80's and 90's made their whole reputation on the "dink & dunk" quick slant to the WR.
haha- those teams a) had a run game and b) had a QB that consistently hit his receivers in stride, allowing for huge gains after the catch. Every throw that Orton makes, the receiver either has to a)dive for it or b) stop in his tracks and come back to it. You have been watching the games, so you know this to be true.

I do not know the remedy for it, I just have observed it. If he was hitting Royal or Marshall or Stokley in stride, I am sure we would see quite a few more slants taken for 20+ yard gains. Montana always hit Rice and Taylor in stride, and Young went deep more often
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:21 PM   #23
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I think that this is a fair conversation, and I think the answer is that McDaniels is here to install his system, not extend Shanahan's. I think it's fair to wonder if rather than just bull headed installing his own thing, he might think to adapt his offense and innovate using the tools that he's got. This system has produced 1000 yard rushers for us like no other system that I can ever remember in the history of the game. And it's about to be chucked on the scrap heap.

I think that there's a legitimate discussion about whether the baby should be thrown out with the bath water or not. I mean, why keep Turner or Dennison around? I would say that their days are probably numbered from the looks of things.

I think Bobby Turner belongs in the Ring of Fame.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:27 PM   #24
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haha- those teams a) had a run game and b) had a QB that consistently hit his receivers in stride, allowing for huge gains after the catch. Every throw that Orton makes, the receiver either has to a)dive for it or b) stop in his tracks and come back to it. You have been watching the games, so you know this to be true.

I do not know the remedy for it, I just have observed it. If he was hitting Royal or Marshall or Stokley in stride, I am sure we would see quite a few more slants taken for 20+ yard gains. Montana always hit Rice and Taylor in stride, and Young went deep more often
so if we could get Orton to hit the quick slant consistently, then you'd be happy with him at QB? or is there no circumstance under which you'd ever accept him back there?
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:29 PM   #25
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No, McDaniels is not above reproach. But neither are you, lex, and you should expect this kind of pushback when you start a bull**** thread.
The lilliputian mafia is predictable, dude.
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