Dems Exaggerate Health Insurance Profits - The Orange Mane

TexanBob · 10-25-2009, 12:21 PM

Hard to believe this is from the Associated Press, but here it is:

WASHINGTON (AP) - Quick quiz: What do these enterprises have in common? Farm and construction machinery, Tupperware, the railroads, Hershey sweets, Yum food brands and Yahoo? Answer: They're all more profitable than the health insurance industry.

In the health care debate, Democrats and their allies have gone after insurance companies as rapacious profiteers making "immoral" and "obscene" returns while "the bodies pile up."

Ledgers tell a different reality. Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.

Profits barely exceeded 2 percent of revenues in the latest annual measure. This partly explains why the credit ratings of some of the largest insurers were downgraded to negative from stable heading into this year, as investors were warned of a stagnant if not shrinking market for private plans.

But in pillorying insurers over profits, the critics are on shaky ground. A look at some claims, and the numbers:

THE CLAIMS

_"I'm very pleased that (Democratic leaders) will be talking, too, about the immoral profits being made by the insurance industry and how those profits have increased in the Bush years." House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., who also welcomed the attention being drawn to insurers'"obscene profits."

_"Keeping the status quo may be what the insurance industry wants their premiums have more than doubled in the last decade and their profits have skyrocketed." Maryland Rep. Chris Van Hollen, member of the Democratic leadership.

_"Health insurance companies are willing to let the bodies pile up as long as their profits are safe." A MoveOn.org ad.

THE NUMBERS:

Health insurers posted a 2.2 percent profit margin last year, placing them 35th on the Fortune 500 list of top industries. As is typical, other health sectors did much better - drugs and medical products and services were both in the top 10.

The railroads brought in a 12.6 percent profit margin. Leading the list: network and other communications equipment, at 20.4 percent.

HealthSpring, the best performer in the health insurance industry, posted 5.4 percent. That's a less profitable margin than was achieved by the makers of Tupperware, Clorox bleach and Molson and Coors beers.

The star among the health insurance companies did, however, nose out Jack in the Box restaurants, which only achieved a 4 percent margin.

UnitedHealth Group, reporting third quarter results last week, saw fortunes improve. It managed a 5 percent profit margin on an 8 percent growth in revenue.

Van Hollen is right that premiums have more than doubled in a decade, according to a Kaiser Family Foundation study that found a 131 percent increase.

But were the Bush years golden ones for health insurers?

Not judging by profit margins, profit growth or returns to shareholders. The industry's overall profits grew only 8.8 percent from 2003 to 2008, and its margins year to year, from 2005 forward, never cracked 8 percent.

The latest annual profit margins of a selection of products, services and industries: Tupperware Brands, 7.5 percent; Yahoo, 5.9 percent; Hershey, 6.1 percent; Clorox, 8.7 percent; Molson Coors Brewing, 8.1 percent; construction and farm machinery, 5 percent; Yum Brands (think KFC, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell), 8.5 percent.

TexanBob · 10-25-2009, 12:23 PM

I know for a lot of you socialists, ANY profits are too much but it does it really do any good for your leaders to LIE about profits when the facts are so easily accessed.

Spider · 10-25-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanBob

I know for a lot of you socialists, ANY profits are too much but it does it really do any good for your leaders to LIE about profits when the facts are so easily accessed.

I know alot of a lot of you Bedwetters ,are ok with paying 1,800.00 a month in Premiums then getting **** canned as soon as you need it .........We got a name for people like you ................Yep thats the one .......

TexanBob · 10-25-2009, 01:36 PM

Spider can't count beyond the seven teeth in his mouth so it makes sense he wouldn't understand the difficult concepts of business.

Rigs11 · 10-25-2009, 01:54 PM

If you love the insurance companies so much then stick with them. Not sure why you rightards can't comprehend that you still have that option.

Rigs11 · 10-25-2009, 01:57 PM

An one more note, no one gives a rats ass if tupperware companies are making a bigger profit. People are not dying or going bankrupt due to tupperware. Jackasses....

Pseudofool · 10-25-2009, 02:06 PM

It's not how much profit or even the fact that they make profit that's problematic; rather its the means through which these profits are produced. I really don't want to argue about the dubiousness of practices like denying coverage for preexisting conditions. What's clear to me is that there's something wrong with any market that allows an industry to so abusively work against their own consumers best interests. There's nothing free, or fair, or judicious, or even sensible about that. What's worse is this isn't just some toy-company monopoly--this industry directly affects touchstone for measuring cultural success, the mortality rate. So even, the most sterile, unsympathetic worldview can note with irony how well the "free" market's been doing it's job.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html
175 Northern Mariana Islands 6.59 2009 est.
176 Lithuania 6.47 2009 est.
177 Belarus 6.43 2009 est.
178 Croatia 6.37 2009 est.
179 Faroe Islands 6.32 2009 est.
180 United States 6.26 2009 est.
181 Cuba 5.82 2009 est.
182 European Union 5.72 2009 est.
183 Italy 5.51 2009 est.
184 Isle of Man 5.37 2009 est.
185 Taiwan 5.35 2009 est.
186 San Marino 5.34 2009 est.
187 Greece 5.16 2009 est.
188 Ireland 5.05 2009 est.
189 Canada 5.04 2009 est.
190 Wallis and Futuna 5.02 2009 est.
191 Monaco 5.00 2009 est.
192 New Zealand 4.92 2009 est.
193 United Kingdom 4.85 2009 est.
194 Gibraltar 4.83 2009 est.
195 Portugal 4.78 2009 est.
196 Australia 4.75 2009 est.
197 Jersey 4.73 2009 est.
198 Netherlands 4.73 2009 est.
199 Luxembourg 4.56 2009 est.
200 Guernsey 4.47 2009 est.
201 Belgium 4.44 2009 est.
202 Austria 4.42 2009 est.
203 &nbsp

enmark 4.34 2009 est.
204 Korea, South 4.26 2009 est.
205 Liechtenstein 4.25 2009 est.
206 Slovenia 4.25 2009 est.
207 Israel 4.22 2009 est.
208 Spain 4.21 2009 est.
209 Switzerland 4.18 2009 est.
210 Germany 3.99 2009 est.
211 Czech Republic 3.79 2009 est.
212 Andorra 3.76 2009 est.
213 Malta 3.75 2009 est.
214 Norway 3.58 2009 est.
215 Anguilla 3.52 2009 est.
216 Finland 3.47 2009 est.
217 France 3.33 2009 est.
218 Iceland 3.23 2009 est.
219 Macau 3.22 2009 est.
220 Hong Kong 2.92 2009 est.
221 Japan 2.79 2009 est.
222 Sweden 2.75 2009 est.
223 Bermuda 2.46 2009 est.
224 Singapore 2.31 2009 est.

Spider · 10-25-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanBob

Spider can't count beyond the seven teeth in his mouth so it makes sense he wouldn't understand the difficult concepts of business.

..This coming from you .................quit possibly ,the closest one here to Barry in stupidity ........

JJJ · 10-25-2009, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pseudofool

It's not how much profit or even the fact that they make profit that's problematic; rather its the means through which these profits are produced. I really don't want to argue about the dubiousness of practices like denying coverage for preexisting conditions. What's clear to me is that there's something wrong with any market that allows an industry to so abusively work against their own consumers best interests. There's nothing free, or fair, or judicious, or even sensible about that. What's worse is this isn't just some toy-company monopoly--this industry directly affects touchstone for measuring cultural success, the mortality rate. So even, the most sterile, unsympathetic worldview can note with irony how well the "free" market's been doing it's job.

In the single payer system people wait for months and sometimes years for surgery. Is that moral?

The burden of the morality question you pose is on the government, not the companies. If it is a moral imperative then pass a law. If they would simply insist that all citizens have to have health care the market will provide it safely and effectively just like they do in Switzerland where the free market provides the services under a government mandate that all must be covered. Switzerland does pretty well on that list. This ensures the young and healthy are paying into the system to keep the costs under control.

A single payer universal health care system simply won't work in a country of 300m people. Too big of an organization, too much inefficiency and waste, too much corruption. It simply is not practical and not consistent with how we want services delivered in our society, through markets not the government.

Strip the insurance companies of their anti-trust protection, let them compete nationwide, and force all to pay for a minimum level of coverage. It uses our existing free market infrastructure and accomplishes all that is really needed in the cheapest way possible.

barryr · 10-26-2009, 06:33 AM

The liberal idiots can't seem to comprehend that with a public plan, many companies are going to drop insurance and it will become a single payer option and when the government has no competition, that's even worse when private companies don't have competition. The government doesn't need to make a profit, while private companies do, so talk about a huge advantage or disadvantage.

TailgateNut · 10-26-2009, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanBob

I know for a lot of you socialists, ANY profits are too much but it does it really do any good for your leaders to LIE about profits when the facts are so easily accessed.

You're talking margins, not raw numbers. ....and it's not the insurers who get the choice piece of the pie. It's the Pharma's and providers who are reaping the Mucho Dinero.

Do me a favor: Go to your provider and calculate the time spent on your "treatment/diagnosis", and then get a copy of the invoice which the insurance co. receives, add in your copay and divide by the #of minutes actually devoted to your care.

Spider · 10-26-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

You're talking margins, not raw numbers. ....and it's not the insurers who get the choice piece of the pie. It's the Pharma's and providers who are reaping the Mucho Dinero.

Do me a favor: Go to your provider and calculate the time spent on your "treatment/diagnosis", and then get a copy of the invoice which the insurance co. receives, add in your copay and divide by the #of minutes actually devoted to your care.

but Texican boob already thought of that , he knows how to run a business

TailgateNut · 10-26-2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider

but Texican boob already thought of that , he knows how to run a business

I once recieved (due to a billing error) a copy of a billing from a regular doctor visit for a minor ailment. The total billing was at $546 (not much considering), unless you break down the time devoted to my care.

Check in: 5 minutes
Nurse (weight, temp, BP and initail log) 12 minutes
Doctor consult 7 minutes
Check out 3 minutes

Total time (not time spent in clinic which was over 1 hour) 27 minutes

That's $20.22 per frigging minute, which equals $1213.20 p. hr., and the majority of time was front desk clerk and nursing asst..

Also, this particular visit did not require blood work, x-rays or any other High cost treatment/tests.

Spider · 10-26-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

I once recieved (due to a billing error) a copy of a billing from a regular doctor visit for a minor ailment. The total billing was at $546 (not much considering), unless you break down the time devoted to my care.

Check in: 5 minutes
Nurse (weight, temp, BP and initail log) 12 minutes
Doctor consult 7 minutes
Check out 3 minutes

Total time (not time spent in clinic which was over 1 hour) 27 minutes

That's $20.22 per frigging minute, which equals $1213.20 p. hr., and the majority of time was front desk clerk and nursing asst..

Also, this particular visit did not require blood work, x-rays or any other High cost treatment/tests.

My sons broken leg 50 K , no surgery ............ I dont have the break down , but 50 ****ing thousand dollars to set a broken leg .......

10-25-2009, 12:21 PM	#1
TexanBob Don't Argue With Me You Know I'm Right Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,023 Adopt-a-Bronco: Darris Nash	Dems Exaggerate Health Insurance Profits Hard to believe this is from the Associated Press, but here it is: WASHINGTON (AP) - Quick quiz: What do these enterprises have in common? Farm and construction machinery, Tupperware, the railroads, Hershey sweets, Yum food brands and Yahoo? Answer: They're all more profitable than the health insurance industry. In the health care debate, Democrats and their allies have gone after insurance companies as rapacious profiteers making "immoral" and "obscene" returns while "the bodies pile up." Ledgers tell a different reality. Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones. Profits barely exceeded 2 percent of revenues in the latest annual measure. This partly explains why the credit ratings of some of the largest insurers were downgraded to negative from stable heading into this year, as investors were warned of a stagnant if not shrinking market for private plans. But in pillorying insurers over profits, the critics are on shaky ground. A look at some claims, and the numbers: THE CLAIMS _"I'm very pleased that (Democratic leaders) will be talking, too, about the immoral profits being made by the insurance industry and how those profits have increased in the Bush years." House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., who also welcomed the attention being drawn to insurers'"obscene profits." _"Keeping the status quo may be what the insurance industry wants their premiums have more than doubled in the last decade and their profits have skyrocketed." Maryland Rep. Chris Van Hollen, member of the Democratic leadership. _"Health insurance companies are willing to let the bodies pile up as long as their profits are safe." A MoveOn.org ad. THE NUMBERS: Health insurers posted a 2.2 percent profit margin last year, placing them 35th on the Fortune 500 list of top industries. As is typical, other health sectors did much better - drugs and medical products and services were both in the top 10. The railroads brought in a 12.6 percent profit margin. Leading the list: network and other communications equipment, at 20.4 percent. HealthSpring, the best performer in the health insurance industry, posted 5.4 percent. That's a less profitable margin than was achieved by the makers of Tupperware, Clorox bleach and Molson and Coors beers. The star among the health insurance companies did, however, nose out Jack in the Box restaurants, which only achieved a 4 percent margin. UnitedHealth Group, reporting third quarter results last week, saw fortunes improve. It managed a 5 percent profit margin on an 8 percent growth in revenue. Van Hollen is right that premiums have more than doubled in a decade, according to a Kaiser Family Foundation study that found a 131 percent increase. But were the Bush years golden ones for health insurers? Not judging by profit margins, profit growth or returns to shareholders. The industry's overall profits grew only 8.8 percent from 2003 to 2008, and its margins year to year, from 2005 forward, never cracked 8 percent. The latest annual profit margins of a selection of products, services and industries: Tupperware Brands, 7.5 percent; Yahoo, 5.9 percent; Hershey, 6.1 percent; Clorox, 8.7 percent; Molson Coors Brewing, 8.1 percent; construction and farm machinery, 5 percent; Yum Brands (think KFC, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell), 8.5 percent.

10-25-2009, 02:06 PM	#7
Pseudofool Cynic at Large Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The Kingdom of Solipsism Posts: 2,886 Adopt-a-Bronco: Me?	It's not how much profit or even the fact that they make profit that's problematic; rather its the means through which these profits are produced. I really don't want to argue about the dubiousness of practices like denying coverage for preexisting conditions. What's clear to me is that there's something wrong with any market that allows an industry to so abusively work against their own consumers best interests. There's nothing free, or fair, or judicious, or even sensible about that. What's worse is this isn't just some toy-company monopoly--this industry directly affects touchstone for measuring cultural success, the mortality rate. So even, the most sterile, unsympathetic worldview can note with irony how well the "free" market's been doing it's job. https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html 175 Northern Mariana Islands 6.59 2009 est. 176 Lithuania 6.47 2009 est. 177 Belarus 6.43 2009 est. 178 Croatia 6.37 2009 est. 179 Faroe Islands 6.32 2009 est. 180 United States 6.26 2009 est. 181 Cuba 5.82 2009 est. 182 European Union 5.72 2009 est. 183 Italy 5.51 2009 est. 184 Isle of Man 5.37 2009 est. 185 Taiwan 5.35 2009 est. 186 San Marino 5.34 2009 est. 187 Greece 5.16 2009 est. 188 Ireland 5.05 2009 est. 189 Canada 5.04 2009 est. 190 Wallis and Futuna 5.02 2009 est. 191 Monaco 5.00 2009 est. 192 New Zealand 4.92 2009 est. 193 United Kingdom 4.85 2009 est. 194 Gibraltar 4.83 2009 est. 195 Portugal 4.78 2009 est. 196 Australia 4.75 2009 est. 197 Jersey 4.73 2009 est. 198 Netherlands 4.73 2009 est. 199 Luxembourg 4.56 2009 est. 200 Guernsey 4.47 2009 est. 201 Belgium 4.44 2009 est. 202 Austria 4.42 2009 est. 203 &nbspenmark 4.34 2009 est. 204 Korea, South 4.26 2009 est. 205 Liechtenstein 4.25 2009 est. 206 Slovenia 4.25 2009 est. 207 Israel 4.22 2009 est. 208 Spain 4.21 2009 est. 209 Switzerland 4.18 2009 est. 210 Germany 3.99 2009 est. 211 Czech Republic 3.79 2009 est. 212 Andorra 3.76 2009 est. 213 Malta 3.75 2009 est. 214 Norway 3.58 2009 est. 215 Anguilla 3.52 2009 est. 216 Finland 3.47 2009 est. 217 France 3.33 2009 est. 218 Iceland 3.23 2009 est. 219 Macau 3.22 2009 est. 220 Hong Kong 2.92 2009 est. 221 Japan 2.79 2009 est. 222 Sweden 2.75 2009 est. 223 Bermuda 2.46 2009 est. 224 Singapore 2.31 2009 est.

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10-25-2009, 12:23 PM	#2
TexanBob Don't Argue With Me You Know I'm Right Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,023 Adopt-a-Bronco: Darris Nash	I know for a lot of you socialists, ANY profits are too much but it does it really do any good for your leaders to LIE about profits when the facts are so easily accessed.

10-25-2009, 01:36 PM	#4
TexanBob Don't Argue With Me You Know I'm Right Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,023 Adopt-a-Bronco: Darris Nash	Spider can't count beyond the seven teeth in his mouth so it makes sense he wouldn't understand the difficult concepts of business.

10-25-2009, 01:54 PM	#5
Rigs11 Ring of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7,818	If you love the insurance companies so much then stick with them. Not sure why you rightards can't comprehend that you still have that option.

10-25-2009, 01:57 PM	#6
Rigs11 Ring of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7,818	An one more note, no one gives a rats ass if tupperware companies are making a bigger profit. People are not dying or going bankrupt due to tupperware. Jackasses....

10-26-2009, 06:33 AM	#10
barryr Ring of Famer New to the Forum Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,267 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	The liberal idiots can't seem to comprehend that with a public plan, many companies are going to drop insurance and it will become a single payer option and when the government has no competition, that's even worse when private companies don't have competition. The government doesn't need to make a profit, while private companies do, so talk about a huge advantage or disadvantage.