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Old 10-21-2009, 02:02 AM   #1
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THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:08 AM   #2
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THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?
My only doubt now is that he might not take a nice long term cap friendly deal without demanding top dollar.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:08 AM   #3
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:09 AM   #4
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I have the same confidence in Orton as I had in pre-Oakland injury Griese, and like him for all of the same reasons. That's to say, I didn't expect Griese to do the same things that the gun slinger who came before him could do with a football - I just expected him to go out, manage the game, and get the ball into the right hands, and by doing so, have the team in a position to win games once the fourth quarter rolled around.

I think that's exactly the kind of QB that Orton is, and I would be interested in hearing reasons why I'm wrong on that. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the Griese that we all remember - the limp armed quarterback who was either being picked up off the turf or throwing an interception every other down. I'm talking about the Griese who threw both Eddie and Rod 100 catch seasons, was twice named the AFC player of the week (10/17/99, 9/10/01), named offensive player of the month (September 2001), and set a Broncos team record with a 102.9 passer rating while posting the 2nd-best TD-to-INT ratio (19/4) for a season in NFL history (2000 Season).

Aside from Griese, there is another Broncos quarterback that I think Orton draws similar comparisons to: 1990 Steve Deberg. Deberg was another quarterback with a lot of grit and nerve, though his game management ability didn't come until after he was an elder statesman in the game. Deberg was phenomenal in 1990, throwing for 3,444 yards, 23 TDs, and only 4 INTs that entire season for a QB rating of 96.3. There were only two games that year that the Chiefs lost where they weren't in position to win the game when the fourth quarter rolled around. It proved to be the same for them in the playoffs, and ultimately they came up short, losing 17-16 to the Miami Dolphins after Nick Lowrey missed a 52-yard field goal at the end of the game. Despite the ending, that was a great season for the Chiefs.

Finally, I'd add one other immediate comparison that comes to mind: Mark Rypien, WSU Cougar, and Superbowl ring wearing Alumni of the Washington Redskins. Rypien was a 2x Pro Bowl selection (1989, 1991), a Superbowl MVP, NFC Offensive Player of the Year (1991), and of course, a Superbowl Champion. That 1991 Redskins team is very close to how these Broncos are modeled. Gary Clark, Art Monk, Ricky Sanders, Ernest Byner and rookie runningback Ricky Ervins. (oh yeah, they also had Gerald Riggs as a third down back - can't wait until we get our third down back in production). Their offensive line was legendary, and their defense - led by HOFer Darrell Green, and lined by Charles Mann and Fred Stokes - not to mention pro-bowl linebacker Wilber Marshall. Rypien and that team rumbled for 11 wins out of the gates.

The point that I'm trying to make is that there's no doubt in my mind that we can get a lot out of Kyle Orton. I think the guy is one of the sharpest tools in the NFL shed. I love the way he goes out and conducts business. He's definitely proven he's a winner, and that means a lot.

But all that being said, the downside of all of the guys I mentioned here nags at my consciousness, and came into clear focus for me last night at pool when my buddy grinned and said, "you Broncos fans crack me up, if your defense was only half as good as it is right now everyone in Denver would hate Kyle Orton right now, and here you are trying to tell me how good he is."

Of course, the best response is the one I gave him: "we're winning now aren't we?"

But the statement did give me pause because it takes me full circle back to pre-shoulder injury Griese, the guy who built up so much good will with the Broncos fans because of his gritty, efficient, pro-bowl earning record-setting performances. All of which went up in smoke almost overnight.

That pretty much sums up both my hopes and reservations about Orton. I suspect, like with Griese, I'll have to be one of the last ones here being pulled off the Orton boat insisting that if we put enough talent around the guy, he can pull off miracles, but I'm hoping he saves me the embarassment and goes out and wins a Superbowl with this team.

Last edited by Taco John; 10-21-2009 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:36 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?
I really like how Orton has improved so far in the season but I think it's still too early to make a judgement on him being a long term solution.

I have two reservations:

I would like to see how he plays as defenses start adjusting to our short passing game. We already saw it with SD. Jammer and Cromartarie were pushed up the line in order to go after the WRs for the 1-5 yard passes from Orton. As a result we didn't see many passes thrown Royal/Stokley/Gaffney's way. I guess it's not really a big deal because only defense with top CBs can get away with doing this. Anything less that very good play from the CBs will result in big plays from our WRs in this type of press coverage.

Secondly, I want to see how Orton continues to handle his pre snap reads. I think the most important part of McD's system calls for the QB to make the right presnap reads and decisions. Orton is already doing this but I want him to continue doing it against the good front 7's we'll face the next three/four weeks.

So really I don't have any criticisms of the guy. I understand that in order for him to succeed we need a good OL and WRs getting open and that's cool. But I want him to do the things he's doing for an entire season because any QB can have a good two/three game stretch or longer.

Also, finally, props to Orton in settling down as a pocket passer in this offense. I counted at least 8 times in his dropbacks where he went through two to three reads, scanning the entire field.

Plus, even though on a lot of plays he had Moreno/Buck available for the dump off pass he didn't go for the easy option but tried to pass the ball further down the field.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:47 AM   #6
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I have the same confidence in Orton as I had in pre-Oakland injury Griese, and like him for all of the same reasons. That's to say, I didn't expect Griese to do the same things that the gun slinger who came before him could do with a football - I just expected him to go out, manage the game, and get the ball into the right hands, and by doing so, have the team in a position to win games once the fourth quarter rolled around.

I think that's exactly the kind of QB that Orton is, and I would be interested in hearing reasons why I'm wrong on that.
You are wrong.

1. Orton has a much stronger arm than Griese ever had on his best day.

2. Griese's aloof and quiet demeanor never really won over his team mates or the locker room. Orton is twice the leader Griese will ever be.

3. Orton also has better pocket presence, Griese was a statue.

4. Apart from one stretch of a handful of games in 2000, Griese never really took care of the ball. He turned the ball over by throwing ints, and was a fumbler.

5. And finally, Orton isn't a clumsy, dog tripping, clown, and won't be punched in the face by a team mate for being one either.

Last edited by fontaine; 10-21-2009 at 04:49 AM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:52 AM   #7
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You are wrong.

1. Orton has a much stronger arm than Griese ever had on his best day.

2. Griese's aloof and quiet demeanor never really won over his team mates or the locker room. Orton is twice the leader Griese will ever be.

3. Orton also has better pocket presence, Griese was a statue.

4. Apart from one stretch of a handful of games in 2000, Griese never really took care of the ball. He turned the ball over by throwing ints, and was a fumbler.


5. And finally, Orton isn't a clumsy, dog tripping, clown, and won't be punched in the face by a team mate for being one either.
Griese hardly threw INT's....
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:56 AM   #8
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but here are a few reasons the Broncos defense is better ...

1. fewer turnovers by the Broncos' offense
2. better special teams play
3. a more physical style of play than anything shanahan put on the field the past 3 years

cutler may be more physically gifted than orton but he was not a leader and would have cost the broncos a win or two already with his turnovers and/or negative attitude.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:59 AM   #9
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My only doubt now is that he might not take a nice long term cap friendly deal without demanding top dollar.
kyle orton is smart enough to realize the benefit of playing under mcdaniels and will not demand an outrageous contract to stay. plus, he loves being the consummate teammate and winning games. plus, he's from the midwest ... cutler is, too, sorta but he's the antithesis of midwest folks.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:06 AM   #10
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The only qbs in the NFL I don't have questions about are the ones that won a Superbowl.

So to say I have no doubt Orton will win a Superbowl to me is a reach. Superbowls are really hard to win. Don't you all agree that Superbowls are huge? They ain't easy to win. You get 1 Superbowl ring a decade and you are elite. After 40 yrs you should have 4, but we all know it's not even that easy.

Orton seems good enough to win with other players playing really well.

Reminds me a tad of Plummer in that regard, but not in how they play. Orton has weapons though and defense playing well. If that formula continues he could win a Superbowl.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:13 AM   #11
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kyle orton is smart enough to realize the benefit of playing under mcdaniels and will not demand an outrageous contract to stay. plus, he loves being the consummate teammate and winning games. plus, he's from the midwest ... cutler is, too, sorta but he's the antithesis of midwest folks.
I agree unless Broncos insult him with a lowball offer his agent will tell him to for sure sign a long term deal, get upfront money, invest it, and be rich forever. Even a 2nd tier long term NFL QB contract is like hitting the lottery.

You would think minimum Orton walks away with a 10 million dollar bonus. Maybe not all at once but it will be a good chunk garaunteed
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:35 AM   #12
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I love Jay Cutler and want to have his baby..... Signed BroncoMcBuff
That would be one UGLY A$$ BABY!

BIG TOO!
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:37 AM   #13
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You are wrong.

1. Orton has a much stronger arm than Griese ever had on his best day.

2. Griese's aloof and quiet demeanor never really won over his team mates or the locker room. Orton is twice the leader Griese will ever be.

3. Orton also has better pocket presence, Griese was a statue.

4. Apart from one stretch of a handful of games in 2000, Griese never really took care of the ball. He turned the ball over by throwing ints, and was a fumbler.

5. And finally, Orton isn't a clumsy, dog tripping, clown, and won't be punched in the face by a team mate for being one either.

Awesome response.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:39 AM   #14
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:40 AM   #15
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People tend to forget that Orton while at Purdue was in a mostly passing attack type of offense and was the QB that followed Brees there. He didn't come from a mostly running attack, ball control offense that say Griese did while at Michigan.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?
The exact same thing Plummer did. Orton looks excellent in the regular season just like Plummer had his high win %, what we need to figure out is how he performs in the playoffs. Can he win a playoff game?

There is no denying that Orton looks brilliant right now, he is thouroughly outplaying not only expectations but also a string of pro bowlers, but like Marty Schottenheimer will tell you, 14-2 means very little if its one and done in January.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:42 AM   #17
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I am sold on Orton for the now but not as the long term answer yet. The only thing I would like to see now is how he performs over the entire season and how he handles big games(playoffs). I still think there are much better QBs and that this offense could be very special with everyone else we have if we could find a better QB. Orton has been getting better though and could be that QB. He just needs to continue to improve as he has been.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:55 AM   #18
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The exact same thing Plummer did. Orton looks excellent in the regular season just like Plummer had his high win %, what we need to figure out is how he performs in the playoffs. Can he win a playoff game?

There is no denying that Orton looks brilliant right now, he is thouroughly outplaying not only expectations but also a string of pro bowlers, but like Marty Schottenheimer will tell you, 14-2 means very little if its one and done in January.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:57 AM   #19
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I am sold on Orton for the now but not as the long term answer yet. The only thing I would like to see now is how he performs over the entire season and how he handles big games(playoffs). I still think there are much better QBs and that this offense could be very special with everyone else we have if we could find a better QB. Orton has been getting better though and could be that QB. He just needs to continue to improve as he has been.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:11 AM   #20
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I agree unless Broncos insult him with a lowball offer his agent will tell him to for sure sign a long term deal, get upfront money, invest it, and be rich forever. Even a 2nd tier long term NFL QB contract is like hitting the lottery.

You would think minimum Orton walks away with a 10 million dollar bonus. Maybe not all at once but it will be a good chunk garaunteed
$10 million dollar bonus? Sorry, you guys are dreaming. Matt Cassel, after one year as a starter, received a 6 year $60 million deal with $28 million guaranteed. If Orton surpasses Cassel's solid 2008 numbers (which is on pace to do) and leads the team to the playoffs, rest assured that Cassel's deal will be his agents starting point for negotiations. In the NFL, if you a going to commit long-term to a starting QB, you are going to have to pay top dollar to do so. That's just how it is, like or not.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:18 AM   #21
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Division race: Over.

My doubts about the Broncos: Over.

The Broncos and McDaniels are proving to many people, me included, that we have no idea what to expect each and every NFL season. Anybody outside the Rocky Mountain region not named McDaniels who thought this would be a playoff team is lying worse than that balloon fool.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:22 AM   #22
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After my brilliant predictions this offseason... I'm taking this one game at a time.

As of right now he seems to be a good fit for this offense. After all 16 games and a playoff game or two maybe then I will venture a long term guess.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:27 AM   #23
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but here are a few reasons the Broncos defense is better ...

1. fewer turnovers by the Broncos' offense
2. better special teams play
3. a more physical style of play than anything shanahan put on the field the past 3 years

cutler may be more physically gifted than orton but he was not a leader and would have cost the broncos a win or two already with his turnovers and/or negative attitude.
And 4. Brian Dawkins (aka leadership)
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:32 AM   #24
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Griese hardly threw INT's....
One year he had 19 TDs to 4 interceptions. Every single year he played before and after he threw at least as many interceptions as TDs.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:35 AM   #25
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$10 million dollar bonus? Sorry, you guys are dreaming. Matt Cassel, after one year as a starter, received a 6 year $60 million deal with $28 million guaranteed. If Orton surpasses Cassel's solid 2008 numbers (which is on pace to do) and leads the team to the playoffs, rest assured that Cassel's deal will be his agents starting point for negotiations. In the NFL, if you a going to commit long-term to a starting QB, you are going to have to pay top dollar to do so. That's just how it is, like or not.
I tend to agree while at the same time wondering how much interest there would be for Orton in the FA market. Would other teams think they could plug him in and win? How many teams would think he'd fit what they do or want to do and would be an improvement over what they have?
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