Whitopia? WOW..........

[broncofan7]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...929729,00.html



Q&A
America's Booming White Enclaves
By Randy James Monday, Oct. 12, 2009
Q+A: Whitopia Author Rich Benjamin
Juice Images / Corbis


Traveling some 27,000 miles, African-American journalist Rich Benjamin roamed the U.S. from 2007 to 2009 exploring a major demographic shift that is attracting remarkably little attention — the flight of white residents from cities and integrated suburbs into cloistered, racially homogeneous enclaves. Tidy communities such as St. George, Utah, and Coeur d'Alene, Idaho — places Benjamin calls Whitopias — have grown at triple the rate of America's cities in recent years, raising troubling questions about the country's multiracial cohesion. The Stanford literature Ph.D. chronicled his adventure in a new book, Searching for Whitopia: An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America, and spoke with TIME about what he found.
(Read "Resisting School Integration in Savannah.")
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Let's start with the title of your book — what is a Whitopia, exactly? It seems to be more than just a place where a lot of white people live.
Absolutely. A Whitopia has three things. First, it has posted more than 6% population growth since 2000. The second thing is that the majority of that growth — upwards of 90% — comes from white migrants. The third thing a Whitopia has is an ineffable social charm — a pleasant look and feel.
(Read "A Brief History of the NAACP.")

You say that many Whitopias offer a high quality of life and tend to perform well on those "Best Places to Live" lists that run in magazines. Do you think people are also drawn to these places specifically for their whiteness?
The major draw to Whitopia is that they're safe communities with good public schools and beautiful natural resources. Those qualities are subconsciously inseparable from race in many Americans' minds. For some people, race is a major role, and they said so to my face, but most of the Whitopians I encountered aren't intentionally practicing racial discrimination or self-segregation.

You say Whitopias can form even in the middle of diverse cities. How is that possible?
People don't realize that diversity isn't the same as integration. Blacks and whites in New York, where I live, are as segregated today as in 1910 [based on a sociologists' segregation index that measures how much contact people of differing races have with one another.]

What is the danger Whitopias pose to America as a whole?
You can call me old-fashioned, but I'm an integrationist. A democracy can't function at its optimum unless all members are integrated as full members.

A community full of like-minded people tends to enforce their own view of the world and close off opposing viewpoints. You can go to parties in New York City where the liberal smugness is intolerable because they're only hearing liberal viewpoints. On the Whitopian conservative side, it's spinning out of control. Look at the tea-bagger movement, where people are concerned their taxes are going to be wasted on minorities and illegal immigrants. Same with the movement that says [President] Obama is not a citizen. (See pictures of the tea-party protests.)

So how can we avoid the threat of the racial Balkanization that you describe?
We have a golden opportunity now. If I were an elected leader, I would say we have $800 billion in stimulus money that could rebuild America. We don't want to build communities in such a way that continues segregation. After World War II, President Eisenhower built highways and gave incentives to homeowners that gave white suburbanites an advantage. It left us with segregation for decades to come. Now we have an opportunity to get it right.

Are there any places that are getting it right now? That serve as a model for what you'd like to see?
There are communities around the country that get it right. Maplewood, N.J., has all the attributes of a Whitopia — high property values, great public schools, neighborliness — and yet it's also integrated and very diverse.

What surprised you about the communities you spent time in?
I was caught off-guard by the level of hostility to immigration reform in many of these communities and by how concerned many are by taxes — they believe taxes are too high. But I was also caught off-guard by how pleasant an experience it turned out to be, the personable warmth that greeted me in many cases.

And you were surprised by how much you enjoyed golf.
I was. [Laughs.] I feel like golf courses are the seductive emblem of Whitopia, and I didn't think I could get the essence of the place without learning myself. What I thought was a chore turned out to be a labor of love.

Tell me about the time you spent with white separatists in Idaho.
I just stumbled upon it. There's a religious sect called Christian Identity, which is a religious arm of the Aryan Nations. When I was in northern Idaho, I sat in on a three-day retreat and had some fascinating conversations. It was just a bizarre experience.

You, a black man, sat in on a white-separatist retreat. How did that go over?
They were curious and shocked they had found a black man on their premises. A lot of the members of the church took pains to explain to me the difference between white supremacy and white separatism. They said, "We don't think we're better than you; we just want to be separate from you."
(Read "What Berlusconi's Obama 'Jokes' Say About Italy.")

We see that tendency to divide ourselves into identity groups in places all over the world, it seems, whether it's by race or religion or political view. Is it simply human nature?
I just reject that argument. People in Whitopia would say, "Hey, Rich, birds of a feather flock together. What's the big deal?" Our government and businesses across the country make decisions every day that perpetuate segregation. When you say homes need to be built on a 1-acre lot, when you say apartment renters can't live in your community — these concrete policies are what contribute to segregation. It's not in our biology, and it's not natural. We're a great country — we've overcome some thorny problems in our past, and we're better than that.

See pictures of expensive things that money can buy.

See pictures of Americans in their homes.

[broncofan7]

'white flight' to the 'burbs has been a known subject for years........

[Dukes]

Damn, if only Gonzo were here. He's be on this thread like white..... oh nevermind.

[Dukes]

I didn't realize St. George was considered a Whitopia, hmm I might have to check that out.

[broncofan7]

Originally Posted by Dukes

I didn't realize St. George was considered a Whitopia, hmm I might have to check that out.

I had never heard of any of those cities......maybe Italians don't qualify?

[Dukes]

I've been to St. George a couple of times. Thought it was pretty nice, plus they've got a few good golf courses

[USAFBronco]

Originally Posted by broncofan7

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...929729,00.html




Our government and businesses across the country make decisions every day that perpetuate segregation. When you say homes need to be built on a 1-acre lot, when you say apartment renters can't live in your community — these concrete policies are what contribute to segregation.
See pictures of expensive things that money can buy.

I didn't know that only white people could buy homes and didn't rent.

[broncofan7]

Originally Posted by USAFBronco

I didn't know that only white people could buy homes and didn't rent.

I missed that memo in my early 20's too........

[epicSocialism4tw]

Newsflash: People that think alike tend to associate with one another and end up in similar places.

[TailgateNut]

Originally Posted by McSkillet

Newsflash: People that think alike tend to associate with one another and end up in similar places.

Shaking head!

[snowspot66]

Coeur d'Alene is a very nice place. It has a nice big lake that lots of rich people visit in the summer.

I'm not entirely sure why he is surprised that white people live there. It's in the middle of the mountains in the panhandle of Idaho of all places. It's practically in the middle of nowhere. White people, potatoes, and snow. Does that even sound like a place most black people would actually want to live in?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by snowspot66

Coeur d'Alene is a very nice place. It has a nice big lake that lots of rich people visit in the summer.

I'm not entirely sure why he is surprised that white people live there. It's in the middle of the mountains in the panhandle of Idaho of all places. It's practically in the middle of nowhere. White people, potatoes, and snow. Does that even sound like a place most black people would actually want to live in?

I dont know...there could be a thriving country mountain gangsta culture in the near future there.

[SJ Bronco]

Originally Posted by McSkillet

I dont know...there could be a thriving country mountain gangsta culture in the near future there.

I hope that's tongue in cheek...I didn't laugh though.

It's not like whites are the only ones who do it. Here in the bay area, asians are the biggest "flighters", and blacks that own houses tend to want to buy them in Predominately black area's. Every race is guilty. I still think it's dumb, but they do.

[gyldenlove]

So aside from a substantially higher propperty value and more Mercedes how is this any different in principle from so many projects and housing estates that are all-black, all-asian or all-hispanic?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by SJ Bronco

I hope that's tongue in cheek...I didn't laugh though.

It's not like whites are the only ones who do it. Here in the bay area, asians are the biggest "flighters", and blacks that own houses tend to want to buy them in Predominately black area's. Every race is guilty. I still think it's dumb, but they do.

I think that its pretty stupid to be obsessive about integrating different cultures. Youre asking people to give up or minimize their history, traditions, values, etc. for the sake of some abstract naivete concerned with crossing cultural boundaries in a non-productive, unrealistic way.

I love other cultures. I love people from other cultures. I would never want them to give them up. As long as they understand and adapt to American culture in a productive and peaceful way, I have no problem with clinging to culture. There is no reason to be ashamed of your culture.

When I go to Beale Street, I am not looking to hear a Delta blues outfit do Aha's "Take on Me". When I go to the Height, I'm not hoping to hear Barry Manilow. I dont want cubists to become impressionists.

However, I can appreciate them all.

[SJ Bronco]

Originally Posted by McSkillet

I think that its pretty stupid to be obsessive about integrating different cultures. Youre asking people to give up or minimize their history, traditions, values, etc. for the sake of some abstract naivete concerned with crossing cultural boundaries in a non-productive, unrealistic way.

I love other cultures. I love people from other cultures. I would never want them to give them up. As long as they understand and adapt to American culture in a productive and peaceful way, I have no problem with clinging to culture. There is no reason to be ashamed of your culture.

When I go to Beale Street, I am not looking to hear a Delta blues outfit do Aha's "Take on Me". When I go to the Height, I'm not hoping to hear Barry Manilow. I dont want cubists to become impressionists.

However, I can appreciate them all.

I don't know, I guess....culture and religion both just seem like excuses to not get along. it's all silly. Community means more to me, and seems to be more productive. You should be able to live in the now. I guess I understand peoples need to hang on to archaic rituals and needs, but I'd rather just live, love, and work with the community I live in, and discard all the worn out cultural handcuffs that prevent us from really enjoying life.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by SJ Bronco

I don't know, I guess....culture and religion both just seem like excuses to not get along. it's all silly. Community means more to me, and seems to be more productive. You should be able to live in the now. I guess I understand peoples need to hang on to archaic rituals and needs, but I'd rather just live, love, and work with the community I live in, and discard all the worn out cultural handcuffs that prevent us from really enjoying life.

What you are missing is that these things are all ways that these peoples have been able to enjoy life for generations. There is a genetic (really a gene-meme relationship) element to culture as well. There are biological reasons for differences in people. It doesnt mean that one or the other are bad, just that they are different.

Enjoy the differences. It will help you to find and appreciate similarities.

I have friends in your part of the country. Both are white people from the deep south. They live and work in the Chinese community there. They have adapted to meet the Chinese culture...they eat traditional Chinese food as a staple, decorate with Chinese art, their children have chinese playmates, and their family really has become part of the culture. They still have their own values and traditions, but they have grown to become part of the community.

This is why I like to travel. You can submerge yourself in the cutures of different people and it deepens your understanding of the world and your appreciation for other cultures and even your own.

[SJ Bronco]

Originally Posted by McSkillet

What you are missing is that these things are all ways that these peoples have been able to enjoy life for generations. There is a genetic (really a gene-meme relationship) element to culture as well. There are biological reasons for differences in people. It doesnt mean that one or the other are bad, just that they are different.

Enjoy the differences. It will help you to find and appreciate similarities.

I have friends in your part of the country. Both are white people from the deep south. They live and work in the Chinese community there. They have adapted to meet the Chinese culture...they eat traditional Chinese food as a staple, decorate with Chinese art, their children have chinese playmates, and their family really has become part of the culture. They still have their own values and traditions, but they have grown to become part of the community.

This is why I like to travel. You can submerge yourself in the cutures of different people and it deepens your understanding of the world and your appreciation for other cultures and even your own.

I remember the opposite being taught to me when I minored in Anthropology.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by SJ Bronco

I remember the opposite being taught to me when I minored in Anthropology.

That's why anthropology isnt a real science.

Seriously, there is an interesting study on the origins of Homo sapiens that was done by some guys in your neighborhood at Stanford. I met him at a talk last year. I forget the fellows name, but he tracks mutations over the spread of all of the continents and has come up with a map of the migration of man over the earth out of Africa. I believe his name was Spencer. He did a special on the subject for the Discovery channel.

People in different regions were relatively isolated genetically (especially when travel was difficult) for long periods of time, and mutations accumulated in these pools or groups of people that were unique to them. It is through these mutations that he was able to track man.

[SJ Bronco]

Originally Posted by McSkillet

That's why anthropology isnt a real science.

Seriously, there is an interesting study on the origins of Homo sapiens that was done by some guys in your neighborhood at Stanford. I met him at a talk last year. I forget the fellows name, but he tracks mutations over the spread of all of the continents and has come up with a map of the migration of man over the earth out of Africa. I believe his name was Spencer. He did a special on the subject for the Discovery channel.

People in different regions were relatively isolated genetically (especially when travel was difficult) for long periods of time, and mutations accumulated in these pools or groups of people that were unique to them. It is through these mutations that he was able to track man.

Well physically, yes, but not mentally. Physically we differ from region to region genetically, but the term race when referring to humans is actually scientifically incorrect. It implies that we are made up of sub-species of humans. The only difference is in the Allels, or blood types. They have found a specific pattern in this area based on area of ancestry. However, my major in psychology would agree with you about conditioning of the mind to assimilate with someone who has cultural or physical similarities. This however is a condition of the mind that can be alleviated by assimilation, and often is studies show.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by SJ Bronco

Well physically, yes, but not mentally. Physically we differ from region to region genetically, but the term race when referring to humans is actually scientifically incorrect. It implies that we are made up of sub-species of humans. The only difference is in the Allels, or blood types. They have found a specific pattern in this area based on area of ancestry. However, my major in psychology would agree with you about conditioning of the mind to assimilate with someone who has cultural or physical similarities. This however is a condition of the mind that can be alleviated by assimilation, and often is studies show.

Your mind is built out of chemicals by your genes. Your genes are unique to you, and at the same time they are the traits of your ancestors piled one on top of the next for generations upon generations.

I like the hard sciences.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

So aside from a substantially higher propperty value and more Mercedes how is this any different in principle from so many projects and housing estates that are all-black, all-asian or all-hispanic?

Basically, yes, there is a difference.

This whitopia's are not really the same as the Asian communities or the Latino communities, or let's say the Irish or Italian communities that gather together (in the past primarily for the caucausian communities) for support.

Really, IMHO (have not studied the issue) minority communities that tend to congregate all in one part of a town or city do so because of support, a innate comfort level they feel by being around their own and also because they are "transitioning" into a new country, a new society. In other words, they are not so much isolating themselves from everyone else, they are more or less strengthing their own ability to live in this country. This is natural.

What these whitopias appear (to me) to be are a tacit protest against taxes (the US government more or less) and the overall direction of where our society is heading.