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Old 10-26-2009, 08:25 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by BroncoMcBuff View Post
Yeah, me and those 9 general managers who had a feeding frenzy over Jay. And everybody else who thinks it was a good trade, and the ESPN poll that favored the Bears side afterward, we're ALL voices in the wilderness (if by 'wilderness' you mean everywhere not on this website, yes).

But yeah, you are smarter than ALL them guys, huh Roh?

You guys are hilarious, you really are. But then again I am obsessed with objectivity, so there
Who cares what anybody thought at the time? People clearly chose to overlook the clear issues with Jay's game, probably for two reasons: 1) his immense physical talent can be breathtaking at times and he does have a knack for jaw-dropping passes 2) those who paid attention to the WTF? throws figured they could coach it out of him (even though offensive guru Mike Shanahan couldn't). It's becoming clear that Jay is what he is--a immensely talented guy who lacks the ability to consistently make good decisions and who has poor leadership skills. I imagine a few opinions are starting to change. And, you seem to have a problem with people who change their minds about Jay. Why? You would prefer they be like Bush supporters...ignore all evidence of his penchant for ****-ups and stand by him anyway, rationalizing away every failure as the fault of someone else? Isn't it more rational to change your position when the evidence warrants such rather than digging your heels into a position that has become increasingly indefensible?
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:26 AM   #177
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Last three games of the year our "defense" gave up 30 30 and 52.

People love to forget, but the season was O-V-E-R on the road in Cleveland when the 4th quarter started. That 4th quarter comeback by Cutler was historic actually, best 4th quarter comeback in the league last year.
It was week ten, far from over. San Diego was 3-5 heading into week 10, we where 4-4. A loss coupled with a SD win would've just put us at tied in the division, not "season over" status by any stretch.


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We just disagree. The defense was at least 75% responsible for Shanahan's ouster, I'd say 90%. I can't imagine how anyone could disagree.

Proof Jay was NOT the reason Mike was fired? Bowlen said after the firing, "Jay is the man around here, I'll have to speak with him about the future" or something. That's proof Pat didn't think Jay was the problem ... and since Pat did the firing, ipso facto, Jay was not the reason.
Mike Shanahan got fired because he didn't make the playoffs despite going into the final three weeks of the season with a three game lead. We where a historic lock to win the division, and we found a way to choke it up. Jay Cutler was a big part of that.

If we make the playoffs and get blown out in round one we probably still have Shanahan, Cutler, and Slowik all part of this franchise. It would've been status quo. Our defense still would have sucked but Shanahan wouldn't have been fired, therefore the notion that the horrible defense was 90% of why Shanahan got canned just doesn't fly.

Our defense sucked last year, sure, but at some point you are what you are and you've got to produce despite your deficiencies. We knew our D couldn't stop anyone, so we typically just tried to outscore 'em. This didn't fail because the offense wasn't good enough, this failed because Jay Cutler was far too inconsistent to carry a team, and after a first half where he actually looked like the pro-bowler he was proclaimed, he declined heavily and what the team had been built around (Cutler and the offense) suddenly couldn't be relied on anymore.

You can't blame it on the RBs, he started to slump when we still had some capable backs putting up good yardage. You can't blame it on the defense, they weren't the ones who put up 17, 17, and 10 in three home games last year against beatable teams, and averaged over two turnovers a game.

Cutler was great in half our games last year, and he completely let us down in the other eight. If he just plays a balanced season we probably lose to San Diego at home and New Orleans, but we also probably win against Jacksonville at home, Miami at home, Oakland, and Buffalo at home. We drop two games he carried us to victory with exceptional efforts and pick up four where his below average to outright poor play resulted in us losing football games.

My criticisms aren't revisionist history post-trade as you know. They're views I formed after watching Cutler go from a star in the making through the first few games of the year to a scatter brained, inconsistent QB who once again played the worst football of his season when the games mattered most.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:26 AM   #178
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It's sheer hyperbolic-Cutler-nutswinging to act like he won all are games for us and did nothing to contribute to the losses.
I never said that, in fact I said "he should rammed the ball in" at the end of the season. Please read my posts before you attack ...


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Originally Posted by BI
Then why do you breathlessly come to his defense when anything critical is said about him? And then call your often hyperbolic takes "reasonable", and suggesting that those who(CORRECTLY) believe Jay did his fair share to contribute to our recent mediocrity our merely unreasoned hater. I would say we our being far more reasonable by not absolving Jay and the offense for every ill on the team because the defense was bad.
He contributed plenty, just not nearly as much as the defense did. By a longshot. And I didn't say it was necessarily MY take, I said it was a REASONABLE take. People far, far smarter than you or I decided that this take was somewhat true, and that this was a good trade for both teams. Pretending otherwise is sheer nonsense.


And why does everybody care so much that I still like Jay?

I do find it funny when so many here "breathlessly" watch his games and when he throws a pick they say, "HAHAHAHA, ANOTHER INTERCEPTION, SEE? HE SUCKS HE SUCKS, I KNEW IT!"

The opposite of love is not hate .... just sayin.'
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:30 AM   #179
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The opposite of love is not hate .... just sayin.'

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Old 10-26-2009, 08:36 AM   #180
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Every time I see Cutler make another bone-headed throw I just think, "If not for the owner, new FO and new coach of the Broncos, that could be my team, and my QB." So I guess it's more "gratitude" than anything else.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:38 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by BroncoMcBuff View Post
I do find it funny when so many here "breathlessly" watch his games and when he throws a pick they say, "HAHAHAHA, ANOTHER INTERCEPTION, SEE? HE SUCKS HE SUCKS, I KNEW IT!"

The opposite of love is not hate .... just sayin.'
1 - Nobody cares if you still like Jay, but if you like him more than your current QB then thats lame.

2 - When I read it, I see very few people saying; "I KNEW IT! I KNEW jAY cUTLER SUCKED!" Rather you see people laughing and being ruthless against the only one left that we can call a villain of the late season blow up and the off-season fiasco. McD and Bowlen now look competent and Jay does not, so you see some schadenfreude - where we celebrate actually being the winners of an epic offseason.

3 - Cutler's suck directly contributes to the value of our pick next year.

4 - Several people last year and the year before actually said the same thing that was said in South Park: "Jay- you kind of suck, but look like you could be really good one day." We lost the opportunity at that one day, but right now, Jay is still kinda sucking.


BOOSH!
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:42 AM   #182
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Mike Shanahan got fired because he didn't make the playoffs despite going into the final three weeks of the season with a three game lead. We where a historic lock to win the division, and we found a way to choke it up. Jay Cutler was a big part of that.
I think Mike's firing was in the works long before the last three weeks of the season. He had become - I think - a megalomaniacal-like dictator who pissed just about everybody off. Dan Reeves all over again. Mike asking that the Paul D. Bowlen Center be replaced was a big deal. And once again, after the firing Pat was very solicitous of Jay. So Pat - the one who decides - was not blaming Jay.


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Originally Posted by Drek
My criticisms aren't revisionist history post-trade as you know. They're views I formed after watching Cutler go from a star in the making through the first few games of the year to a scatter brained, inconsistent QB who once again played the worst football of his season when the games mattered most.
"Scatter-brained," I don't get that

He did play some of his worst football when the games mattered, no doubt. And that's not how a winner plays. He has some real growing to do if he wants to be a leader and a winner. But I truly believe - and I think everyone should agree - that his play had us way ahead of where we would've been with any other than an elite quarterback. Too many football professionals obviously agree wiith that.

Yes Drek, you were saying lots of this stuff last season, true. Moreover, you've been almost uncannily accurate, point for point this past offseason. On very specific points, too.

But lots of the rest of this stuff here is just revisionist history and piling on, I hope you can see that.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:43 AM   #183
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1 - Nobody cares if you still like Jay, but if you like him more than your current QB then thats lame.

2 - When I read it, I see very few people saying; "I KNEW IT! I KNEW jAY cUTLER SUCKED!" Rather you see people laughing and being ruthless against the only one left that we can call a villain of the late season blow up and the off-season fiasco. McD and Bowlen now look competent and Jay does not, so you see some schadenfreude - where we celebrate actually being the winners of an epic offseason.

3 - Cutler's suck directly contributes to the value of our pick next year.

4 - Several people last year and the year before actually said the same thing that was said in South Park: "Jay- you kind of suck, but look like you could be really good one day." We lost the opportunity at that one day, but right now, Jay is still kinda sucking.
Good post, I agree with 90% of that ... but you're dead wrong people don't care what I think about Jay. Sometime I'll show you my "hate rep" sheet .

Last edited by BroncoBuff; 10-26-2009 at 08:45 AM..
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:44 AM   #184
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God McBuff, you are absolutely and utterly pathetic.

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Old 10-26-2009, 08:45 AM   #185
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God McBuff, you are absolutely and utterly pathetic.

Actually McStout, this post proves you're right ... nobody cares what I think
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:52 AM   #186
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Damn, despite being knocked down 9 times, he still completed 70% of his passes.

Including three to the Bengals
Jay had a an excellent line and receivers last year, yet still threw 18 ints.

Turnovers will cause loses and all the excuses in the world won't change the fact that Jay is a turnover machine.

First it was Denver's D, now it's Chicago's.

Maybe Jay does make a defense worse.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:52 AM   #187
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I actually care, because you used to be a good poster. Now I am saddened and embarrassed for you. Your posts make me cringe. And you really believe that just putting a smiley means all the bull you have posted is somehow acceptable for a Broncos fan.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:53 AM   #188
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Why would I want to shut you up! This is all the entertainment I'm getting on here during the bye week.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roh
BTW, I know there are such comments made by me, but I just don't know how to operate the search engine well enough to find them. Unless you expect me to just type "Cutler" in the search terms and start reading them.
Aaaaaaw, poor Roh can't work the search feature!

Plug in a date range for your posts, starting a year ago, until 6 months ago, then your name and "Cutler." Then search just the dates on and the day after certain games. I offered $100 for a couple guys here to show me, I just haven't heard a peep ourt of them since

Now LEAVE ME AND JAY ALONE!
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:53 AM   #189
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Maybe Jay does make a defense worse.
Well, his picks and fumbles force them to be on the field much longer and with a much shorter field.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:54 AM   #190
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I actually care, because you used to be a good poster. Now I am saddened and embarrassed for you. Your posts make me cringe. And you really believe that just putting a smiley means all the bull you have posted is somehow acceptable for a Broncos fan.
The smileys are for me pal

And I guess you must cringe at the big scary outside world - the world where so many people agree with me that Jay is an excellent quarterback. Immature maybe, but with a huge upside.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:54 AM   #191
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Jay had a an excellent line and receivers last year, yet still threw 18 ints.

Turnovers will cause loses and all the excuses in the world won't change the fact that Jay is a turnover machine.

First it was Denver's D, now it's Chicago's.

Maybe Jay does make a defense worse.
He wears them out! Slowly, but surely.

He is, however, a legend in his own mind (and BroncoBuffs)
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:59 AM   #192
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The smileys are for me pal

And I guess you must cringe at the big scary outside world - the world where so many people agree with me that Jay is an excellent quarterback. Immature maybe, but with a huge upside.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:01 AM   #193
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:02 AM   #194
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http://www.dabears.com/forums/



A new place for McBuff perhaps?
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:10 AM   #195
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Aaaaaaw, poor Roh can't work the search feature!

Plug in a date range for your posts, starting a year ago, until 6 months ago, then your name and "Cutler." Then search just the dates on and the day after certain games. I offered $100 for a couple guys here to show me, I just haven't heard a peep ourt of them since

Now LEAVE ME AND JAY ALONE!
Thanks! I found some interesting stuff:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...&postcount=193

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff
Look, I kind of admire that so many people are such big Josh fans and defenders, in spite of the facts he is so young and so new. I'm different, I think a guy has to EARN my loyalty when he comes in new (especially after so much blood has been spilled). The Josh people give their loyalty upfront, most it seems with few questions asked. Either way is fine, there's no right or wrong ... besides, in 24 hours, I'm clamming up!

Originally Posted by Rohirrim
You really misinterpret this, either by design or just as some kind of clever argumentative ploy. The people you want to lump into one big group of "Josh loyalists" are not that at all. When confronted with the choice between the Broncos organization, McD and Bowlen vs the whiny biatch that Cutler turned out to be, they side with the organization. That doesn't mean they are not holding McD's ass to the flame. He is making choices. Like any coach in the NFL, his career path will live or die on the choices he makes. That's the grown-up world. A world Jay does not want to become a part of. All your posts do is heighten the polarization of this site. What you mischaracterize as "loyalty" could more honestly be described as "willing to wait and see rather than jump to a ****load of conclusions."

But I particularly liked this one:

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff
GUILTY AS CHARGED ... I LOVE JAY CUTLER!

Good lord, Roh, I "don't notice this"? I'm screaming it from the mountaintops ... I LOVE JAY CUTLER!! Chop down that strawman and scream it with me, Roh!
GUILTY AS CHARGED ... I LOVE JAY CUTLER!

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...&postcount=208

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Old 10-26-2009, 09:22 AM   #196
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Lay of Buff, he is just like everyone else giving his opinion and remains a devout fan.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:27 AM   #197
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From Da Bears forum:


Oh PLEASE!!!!! You MUST be Kidding with this Horse ****!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK......I've been pretty quite this season....But, I gotta say.....

THIS AIN'T NO "TEAM"!!!!!......THIS SO-CALLED POOR EXCUSE FOR AN NFL FOOTBALL TEAM FKIN' BLOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND CUTLER LEADS THE PACK! ...... how's DENVER doing these days?


ABSOLUTELY FREAKIN' PATHETIC!!!!!!!

Here we go, another year of:........."We Just Have To Find A Way To Win"............AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.
.....this team's like a broken record.

Yeah, I know.....so's my attitude.

THEN FKIN' PROVE ME WRONG!!!!!! - THEY CAN'T!!!!! THEY SUCK!!!!!!!


YEAR AFTER FKIN' YEAR.....IT'S THE SAME OLD HORSE ****.


FK DA BEARS!!!!!! what a despicable excuse for FOOTBALL. Can't even watch this crap.


I have leaves to rake.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:29 AM   #198
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Lay of Buff, he is just like everyone else giving his opinion and remains a devout fan.
Thank you my friend.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:45 AM   #199
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I think Mike's firing was in the works long before the last three weeks of the season. He had become - I think - a megalomaniacal-like dictator who pissed just about everybody off. Dan Reeves all over again. Mike asking that the Paul D. Bowlen Center be replaced was a big deal. And once again, after the firing Pat was very solicitous of Jay. So Pat - the one who decides - was not blaming Jay.
Doesn't matter where blame is assigned. He was still largely at fault. He made a promise in the off-season, he folded when that promise was in reach of fulfillment. Its the same promise Shanahan made to start the year too by the way.

Pat Bowlen was getting sick of Shanahan's shtick, but Bowlen loves winning over everything else and if he thought Shanahan was getting this organization back on track he wouldn't have made the move. A playoff birth was what Bowlen expected. When he didn't get it that was the straw that broke the camel's back.



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"Scatter-brained," I don't get that
Panicked, erratic play. Running around with the football like its a loaf of bread. Throwing into double and triple coverage. Thinks like that. He lets the game get too big for him. Steve Young had a great point on this after the opener when he threw a plethora of picks to the Packers. At some point you've got to just stop letting yourself make those mistakes. If it means throwing out of bounds or just hitting your check downs time and time again then do it, but stop shooting your team in the foot.

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He did play some of his worst football when the games mattered, no doubt. And that's not how a winner plays. He has some real growing to do if he wants to be a leader and a winner. But I truly believe - and I think everyone should agree - that his play had us way ahead of where we would've been with any other than an elite quarterback. Too many football professionals obviously agree wiith that.
Too many of the "football professionals" you refer to are media members who now play the roll of star ****ers to please their producers and advertisers. Rodney Harrison called out Tom Brady a few weeks back telling him to "take the skirt off". How much you want to bet the very next commercial break Harrison was on the phone apologizing to Brady for saying that?

They act like this is a sport of individuals, that somehow iconic stars do lead teams to wins. They don't and its not. Its a team game, 53 as one throughout the week, 45 as one come game day. That has always been the formula for winning in this league.

And those football professionals are suddenly very silent about the heir apparent to Brett Favre's throne as the most exciting player in the NFL.

People thought Jimmy Johnson was crazy for trading Herschel Walker for a bunch of picks and a few ok players. All those experts suddenly have revisionist views on the events and knew Jimmy was a draft guru on the verge of greatness. Happens all the time Buff, their opinions are no more valid than yours or my own, and often not nearly as well supported by reality and facts.

Quote:
Yes Drek, you were saying lots of this stuff last season, true. Moreover, you've been almost uncannily accurate, point for point this past offseason. On very specific points, too.
Not uncannily accurate, just patient and looking at the team through a critical, dissecting eye. I'll share with you my thought process from last season through to now.

I completely get where you're coming from, start of last season I thought Cutler was the man and this team was poised for a breakout. I drank the kool-aid without hesitation. But as the season wore on the contrast between our Broncos and the real elite teams became more apparent. So that is why shortly after the season ended, before Shanahan was fired or Cutler traded, I posted on here that Cutler wasn't an elite QB, that his pro-bowl appearance was a farce, and that Matt Ryan was a better QB, with Joe Flacco on the verge of surpassing him.

It wasn't prescience, it was watching how Cutler handled real adversity versus a few rookies several years his juniors. Flacco wasn't even good last year, but he made his biggest plays when the Ravens where in the playoff hunt. That is a defining characteristic of winning quarterbacks, they step it up down the stretch of the season as they get more in tune with their targets, blocking, and scheme.

So when Bowlen decided to make a change I watched with a critical eye, and what I saw was a chronologically young but football wise coordinator of a perennial powerhouse come in and start establishing a new mindset.

There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when Leach was let go to bring in Paxton. I said then it was because McDaniels knows Paxton brings the right mindset and attitude he's looking for, at a low price. Not a negative against Leach at all, just that Paxton was the known quantity. He brought in other guys of similar experience and ethic, known quantities who always give 110% and many of them who have been on teams that made big late season pushes or where on teams that went from cellar dwellers one year to playoff teams the next. Guys like Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, Andra Davis, etc..

That is why when the ordeal with Cutler occurred and Cutler himself said he wasn't happy because McDaniels couldn't assure him he'd never be traded I knew we where on the right track. Either Cutler gets over his childishness (what I was hoping for) and puts the team first, or he gets traded. Either way the team first lunch pail attitude of "just do your jobs" grows in stature within the organization. When the guy who replaced Cutler was Orton, someone I liked since his days at Purdue, I felt even better about it because that is Orton to a 'T'.

McDaniels had a vision from day one. It wasn't even that complex or intricate of a vision. Just a simple statement. Do your jobs and play within the game plan. If at that point we fail then its on the coaches, not the players. So while the teams we face eventually cave to the pressure and fall victim to mental lapses and stupid mistakes we continue to play hard nosed, low risk football, something very rare in the league today.

We might be the best tackling team in the entire NFL right now. Last year we where easily one of the worst. That is largely because no one breaks contain, over shoots a gap, or tries for the big hit at the expense of the sure tackle. The entire success of the 2009 Denver Broncos is reflected in those aspects of this team, and they've been shining through for a while, to those who where willing to stop and look closely.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:53 AM   #200
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Lay of Buff, he is just like everyone else giving his opinion and remains a devout fan.
Buff needs no protection. He gives as good as he gets.
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