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Old 09-13-2009, 07:09 PM   #1
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Default Orton wasnt that great but he wasnt that bad.

I know its passe to bash Orton here. Im not saying he had a great game but consider this, I know its hard to fathom but seriously, stop and look at this.

On the surface, Orton was 17/28 for 243 yards and 1 TD.

Now, we all know 87 yards came on a tipped ball that we got a lucky break on.

First Drive (this is only the passes):
First pass, Orton incomplete to B Marshall. He just dropped this.
Second pass. Orton incomplete to Stokely. Stokely was being absolutely mugged and no PI call and everyone in the chatroom saw this **** as well. That was on 3rd down after a promising start from the 20 we get to the 43 before the drive is derailed because of a missed call and another drop.

Second Drive:
3rd and 5, Orton to Stokely, tipped at the line. This is either on Orton if you hate him or a good defensive play by Cincy. With this crew, we will assume this is on Orton.

Third drive:
1st and 10, Orton sacked for -4 yards, this was a legit sack and Orton had no time. Good blitz by Cincy.
2nd and 14, Orton short to BMarsh for 8 yards.
3rd and 6 Orton sacked, this one was all Orton, and he blew this one.

Fourth drive:
Bubble screen to Gaffney completed for 1 yard on 1st and 10.
2nd and 9, deep pass to Marshall who lets it go right through his hands.
3rd and 9, Bubble screen to Gaffney for 3 yards, tipped at the line.
(Obviously, this drive is on Marshall, its a 3 and out because Marshall drops a catch right between his mittens. The playcalling on 3rd and 9 was also atrocious because even had the ball not been tipped (it was still completed) Dhani Jones was right on Gaffney anyway).

Fiftyh Drive:
2nd and 9, Orton to Royal for 7 yards.
3rd and 2 Orton to Royal incomplete, dropped pass by Royal but probably an ill advised throw as Royal got hammered on this play.

Sixth drive.
2nd and 3, Orton to Buckhalter for 7 yards.
2nd and 3 again, Orton incomplete to Gaffney (Dropped ball)
3rd and 3, Orton to Royal for 11 yards.
1st and 10, Orton deep to Gaffney for 21 yards. This was the replay where Gaffney bobbled but still managed to maintain control before going out.
1st and 10, Orton incomplete to Sheff, another dropped ball. Sheff got hit but he is a TE and is supposed to take that hit and hold on to the ball.
End of Half (we were short on time on this drive if you recall and we ran the ball a lot and did not use timeouts until the end.)

Seventh Drive:
This drive starts off with a negative run and then a penalty leaving us at 2nd and 19. We run, the on 3rd and 134 Orton passes short left to Marshall for 6 and he had Stokely open on the other side. I dont think he had much time on this play but he has to see that open receiver.

8th Drive:
2nd and 8, Orton to Graham for 10.
1st and 10, Orton to Marshall for 4.
2nd and 6, incomplete but penalty on Cincy, no play. Geathers was WAY off side on this play.
2nd and 1, Buckhalter loses a yard setting up...
3rd and 2. Orton incomplete to Peyton. Not the greatest throw but Peyton SHOULD have caught this ball. Another drop.

9th Drive:
1st and 10, Orton to Sheff for 29 yards.
2nd and 8 Orton scrambles because of pressure, gets 3 yards.
3rd and 5: Orton incomplete to Stokes on the dropped ball. This is Stokes drop, the earlier one he was interfered with badly.

10th Drive:
1st and 10, Orton to Hillis for 6.
2nd and 4, Orton incomplete to Royal, this is the play Royal got injured on.
3rd and 4, Orton to B Marsh for 9 yards.
2nd and 9, Orton to Graham for 8 yards, penalty on Denver for phantom Holding.
2nd and 19: Orton to Graham for 10.
3rd and 9: Orton to Graham for 20.
3rd and 10 (after two runs and a penalty), Orton to Buckhalter for 4*
*Penalty on play resulted in a pass play of 4 yards, penalty enforced at Denver 25 backing them up to 35. Net result was first down, penalty negated it bringing us to...
3rd and 16. Orton Sacked. Now, this was the worst thing that could happen but because of the way the pressure came, from the outside first and then up the middle, Orton had no where to escape out of the tackle box. His options were to take a sack (bad) or throw it up for grabs (which we all know would have ended badly). This is actually on McD here. We were in long FG range, the play call should have been a run that kept us at the minimum in field goal range. 3rd and 16's aren't converted often, the safe play was the run play here.

11th Drive:
Orton to BMarsh deep incomplete, almost picked.
Orton to Bmarsh deep left tipped, caught by Stokes ran for a TD 87 yards.
================================================== ==

Now the point is this. 4 dropped passes (I counted 7 total drops, 3 of which I put on Orton for putting his WRs in a bad spot) occurred on 3rd down where the player would have had enough for a first to extend the drives. On the 10th drive, Orton and the Broncos were moving the ball well only to be derailed by two phantom holding calls AND a phantom false start penalty in which the replay shows that Hamilton never moved (I never thught to look elsewhere on the line, maybe someone else moved and they got the number wrong?). Orton didn't play fantastic, BUT he didn't play as bad as people are saying.

Overall, Denver shot themselves in teh foot more than Cincy did anything to hurt them. Some bad decisions by Orton in who he chose to throw to, some bad situational playcalling by McD, some untimely drops by the receivers and some bogus penalties and no-calls all helped to contribute to the poor offensive performance BUT, the second half looked much better. And consider the glove and stitches, Orton did OK.

Would we have liked him to play better? Sure. But then I would have liked for Hillis, Marshall, Stokely, Scheff and Royal to all have caught their clutch 3rd down catches too. I would have liked to see the O-line a bit more disciplined or, at the least, the Refs call freaking holding on a consistent basis.

We should see improvement on both sides of the ball. Basically this is new for everyone (including us fans), so while there ARE some negatives from today, there is also room for hope and I saw a lot of encouraging signs.

THere is a question that Sassy brought up and I have yet to hear an answer for.

Early in the game, Buckhalter was kicking ass. (His first 3 runs on the first drive, 8, 14, 1 yards). Then we dont see him until the last drive of the first half, where he proceeds to get 7, 5 and 1 yards as well as a catch of 7 yards...

Second drive of the 3rd Quarter we see Buckhalter twice, for 11 yards and then -1 yards. We see a single pass attempt in the 4th quarter to him the rest of the game.

Moreno was completely ineffective and Jordon wasn't much better, why was Buckhalter so conspiciously absent most of the game when he was extremely effective when he was in there?

I thought maybe cramps, but Im not sure, was hoping someone else had heard something.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:14 PM   #2
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Lotta dropped balls today. Orton didn't have an A game, but the entire offense was out of sync. Anyone who claims otherwise is being an ass.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:26 PM   #3
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Two of the sacks could have been avoided by Orton, obviously the last one being the most critical. That said, he lives to start another day. Could have been worse.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:27 PM   #4
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Awesome analysis. I saw it that way as well. He lead a few players into big hits, not necessarily buddy passes, but he telegraphed a bit too much.

His stats look better than they should have because of that Stokely miracle, but they also looked worse than they should have because of some bad drops and bad refs.

Hopefully he has what it takes to keep us from losing games for the whole season and gets better as he gets healthy/more comfortable in the offense. I would still like us to take a look at a 1st or 2nd round QB in the draft, unless he improves tremendously by the end of the year.

All-in-all, I would say that if this game had been played by last year's team we either win 34-30 if we play mistake-free football the whole game or lose 10-34 when the whole team gives up after going down by 7 (last years defense would not hold the bengals) in the first quarter with the drops, penalties and 3-and-outs.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Elway View Post
Two of the sacks could have been avoided by Orton, obviously the last one being the most critical. That said, he lives to start another day. Could have been worse.
I dont think the last one was avoidable.

Pressure from all sides, the pocket almost immediately collapsed and he had no where to escape to. HIs ONLY option was to throw it up and we saw what happens with that.

It, IMO, was a bad play call. They went empty backfield and everyone and their mother saw a jail break blitz coming.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:30 PM   #6
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Awesome analysis. I saw it that way as well. He lead a few players into big hits, not necessarily buddy passes, but he telegraphed a bit too much.

His stats look better than they should have because of that Stokely miracle, but they also looked worse than they should have because of some bad drops and bad refs.

Hopefully he has what it takes to keep us from losing games for the whole season and gets better as he gets healthy/more comfortable in the offense. I would still like us to take a look at a 1st or 2nd round QB in the draft, unless he improves tremendously by the end of the year.

All-in-all, I would say that if this game had been played by last year's team we either win 34-30 if we play mistake-free football the whole game or lose 10-34 when the whole team gives up after going down by 7 (last years defense would not hold the bengals) in the first quarter with the drops, penalties and 3-and-outs.
Oh yeah, he definitely has room for improvement on picking his targets, that being said our WRs need to catch those 3rd down passes.

Some of the play designs I thought were head scratches. Why are they running drag routes over the middle so short? I mean, a couple of those drag routes were right inside the linebacker's zones, they gotta go deeper than that. Im not sure if thats play design or bad route running though.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
I dont think the last one was avoidable.

Pressure from all sides, the pocket almost immediately collapsed and he had no where to escape to. HIs ONLY option was to throw it up and we saw what happens with that.

It, IMO, was a bad play call. They went empty backfield and everyone and their mother saw a jail break blitz coming.
Exactly...he had no timeto dump that ball. Their defense beat our offensive line on that one.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:34 PM   #8
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What's killing us is the lack of a vertical passing game. All the teams we have played thus far (including preseason) just squat on the routes under 15 yards. I can't tell if it's Orton's ability or the play calling but either way, it has to open up a little bit. I think Orton's decision making is superior to Cutler's.

Part of the reason this offense works so well in NE because the threat of Moss is deadly. I don't see a WR or QB on our team that can stretch the field like that.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:35 PM   #9
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One of the big problems I had with him was his inaccuracy. For every dropped pass, there was a completed pass where his receiver had to completely alter their route or dive for a ball that wasn't anywhere near where it was intended to be. For a guy that can't throw deep, he needs to have stellar accuracy. Right now, I'll assume the finger had something to do with this.....but if it doesn't improve as the finger heals, I'll freak out.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
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What's killing us is the lack of a vertical passing game. All the teams we have played thus far (including preseason) just squat on the routes under 15 yards. I can't tell if it's Orton's ability or the play calling but either way, it has to open up a little bit. I think Orton's decision making is superior to Cutler's.

Part of the reason this offense works so well in NE because the threat of Moss is deadly. I don't see a WR or QB on our team that can stretch the field like that.
We had 6 passes that were thrown over 20 yards today. Not all were caught, but Orton did throw it downfield more in one day than he did the entire pre-season.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:38 PM   #11
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I don't know. I thought Orton looked pretty bad.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:40 PM   #12
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If he can start completing some passes we can get that line to backoff. They were all up in the box today.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
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One of the big problems I had with him was his inaccuracy. For every dropped pass, there was a completed pass where his receiver had to completely alter their route or dive for a ball that wasn't anywhere near where it was intended to be. For a guy that can't throw deep, he needs to have stellar accuracy. Right now, I'll assume the finger had something to do with this.....but if it doesn't improve as the finger heals, I'll freak out.
He did throw deep. In fact, his deep ball looks more accurate than Cutler's did. They weren't AS deep, but he did throw some passes down the field.

I do agree that even on the shorter routes the accuracy wasn't spot on. But this was one of the things McD liked about Orton (and one of the few praises he had) was that he is an accurate passer so Im going to, at least for now, assume that the injury is throwing his accuracy off a little.

If it doesnt improve as that injury goes away, then I will reflect that change IMO but I will give him the benefit of the doubt until then.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:43 PM   #14
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I don't know. I thought Orton looked pretty bad.
How bad would he have looked had we converted on some of those dropped 3rd down passes? Or had Marshall caught that deep ball?

The whole point of this wasn't to absolve Orton for his play, much of the criticism IS warranted. However it's not ALL on him. He had some bad plays and he had some good ones, but the same can be said of the WHOLE offense. From the O-line to the playcalling to the QB to the WRs and even the RB's not named Buckhalter.

Edit:
Marshall catches that pass, it was 45 yards. Add a couple of those 3rd down drops and all of a sudden, Orton's numbers are looking a lot better and the offense doesn't look so miserable. In fact, it looks quite respectable.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:45 PM   #15
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Thought the Offense, like most in the league today, played like it was the first game of the season. It will get better.

Defense on 3rd down needs to improve right now. This will be the achilles heel before Orton's play will be.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:45 PM   #16
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orton looked jake plummer 2006 bad
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:46 PM   #17
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We had 6 passes that were thrown over 20 yards today. Not all were caught, but Orton did throw it downfield more in one day than he did the entire pre-season.
I said a threat. Just because we attempted some down field passes does not mean that teams respect it.

The stats don't lie in this case. Subtracting the Stokely catch (for obvious reasons), Orton attempted 27 passes for 156 yards for a dismal 5.78 YPA and less than 10 YPC. It's like we are running the ball even when we are not running the ball!

Again, I am not sure what the reason is, but our passing game is anemic.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:48 PM   #18
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orton looked jake plummer 2006 bad
Plummer had 3 ints in his debut
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:48 PM   #19
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Problems I saw today were lack of accuracy, arm strength and decision making.

Arm strength we all know about, the guy just physcially cannot throw with any kind of velocity, so that's not necesarrily an issue to harp on.

But lack of accuracy and poor decision making is a huge concern. The idea with Orton was that McD could fit him into his system; it didn't require the skill set that Cutler brings to the table (or so people think).

However, on many occasions, Orton had plenty of time but either a) could not deliver an accurate catchable pass, or b) couldn't find the open receiver, c) took a bad sack.

He got screwed on some drops to be sure, but from what he's shown in the pre-season and now the first regular season game, he looks just horrible.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:51 PM   #20
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Thought the Offense, like most in the league today, played like it was the first game of the season. It will get better.
I agree entirely. I think this offense will get better as it gets healthier and as key personnel get comfortable running it.

Quote:
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Defense on 3rd down needs to improve right now. This will be the achilles heel before Orton's play will be.
I have a tough time criticizing much the D did today. If we cant get 15 more days from them like today, we'll be in good shape. They only gave up 16 first downs and 33% completion on 3rd down. And that's with the offense gaining only 1 first down through most of the first half. Denver did not get its 2nd first down until 1:01 left in the half.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:51 PM   #21
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I said a threat. Just because we attempted some down field passes does not mean that teams respect it.

The stats don't lie in this case. Subtracting the Stokely catch (for obvious reasons), Orton attempted 27 passes for 156 yards for a dismal 5.78 YPA and less than 10 YPC. It's like we are running the ball even when we are not running the ball!

Again, I am not sure what the reason is, but our passing game is anemic.
Yes I know that the 156 looks bad. But just give us half the dropped 3rd down passes and the Marshall easy grab deep and Denver puts up 250+ passing without the Stokely catch. That's not Cutler but that's not anemic either.

Just saying. Mistakes, not just by Orton, is what made the offense look bad in general but there were signs there. We had them beat several times.

And for the McDouche crowd, I am aware Cincy had the same issues, but since you guys are giving them the benefit of the doubt, I wanted to give the good guys the benefit of the doubt as well.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:52 PM   #22
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Plummer had 3 ints in his debut
jake debuted in 2004...what's your point?
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:52 PM   #23
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Plummer had 3 ints in his debut
Yeah and ironically we were lucky to beat Cincy that day as well.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:53 PM   #24
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orton looked jake plummer 2006 bad
Dont you Mean Cutler 2009 bad?

Oh wait, Orton didnt throw any picks like Plummer and Cutler did in their debuts.

+1 Orton.

Oh, and Orton's team won
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:54 PM   #25
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Lots of drops, yes, but the thing is - he doesn't present any threat to the defense.

There's never a snap where you think, 'oh he's dangerous, this one could go all the way'

He seems timid to me.
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