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Old 09-03-2009, 07:05 AM   #1
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Default DEN using more 5-2 principles than 3-4 on defense...

Here is another excellent article on the Broncos defense:

I'm making a pretty bold pronouncement. I do not believe that the Denver Broncos are running a true 3-4 defense at all, despite what the mainstream media may be reporting. I believe that the Broncos are running a 5-2, and I believe this for more than one reason. Below the fold, I will explain why I believe this to be true, and I will also explain some concepts about the 5-2 and also the system that seems to be emerging in Denver. I will also cover counters, as well as personnel considerations.

I have also received a lot of requests for information about the 5-2 under other posts. If I've left out a question, please accept my apologies and post it under this story. I will do my best to get to every question.



Quote:
Defining the 5-2
Allow me to borrow from a comment I made under another post...

There are two ways to look at how a player is defined. Coaches will argue this point until they are blue in the face.

1. A player is strictly defined by where he lines up. If Peyton Hillis lines up in the slot, he is a slot receiver – period.

2. A player is defined by the position he is best suited for and defined by the team as. If Hillis lines up in the slot he is "a HB lined up in the slot".

My training placed me in the second camp, but there are very good coaches who were brought up either way.

Now back to the 5-2. My point was that, regardless of which school of though you come from, the Broncos are running a 5-2. Here’s why….

If you belong to the first camp – we have five players on the line. By definition, five on the line is automatically a 5-2.

If you belong to the second camp (mine) – we are using true DEs at DE, NOT OLBs! If we were some kind of 3-4 with the OLBs cheating up to the line, it might be a trickier analysis. But we aren’t! We’re not training guys like Elvis Dumervil or Tim Crowder to play at OLB at all! They’re playing their natural role as DEs on the line! (If Doom plays like an OLB, it is only because he’ll get dropped back in a zone blitz, or because the formation changes).

For me to see this unfolding and to realize what was going on was like a light turning on. In another words, no matter how you slice it (and reasonable people will slice it in different ways), this HAS to be a 5-2.



http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/9...denver-broncos
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:09 AM   #2
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HT makes a great argument for why the run defense has looked OK to this point in the season and why the sheer amount of DL trumps the talent level there versus playing a 3-4 alignment.

What he fails to address is the fact that the Spread formations, with proper protection, can easily exploit this scheme and so can twins and trips WR formations with proper gameplanning. Overall, he always does a good job of breaking down the X's and O's for the masses.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:16 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediator12 View Post
HT makes a great argument for why the run defense has looked OK to this point in the season and why the sheer amount of DL trumps the talent level there versus playing a 3-4 alignment.

What he fails to address is the fact that the Spread formations, with proper protection, can easily exploit this scheme and so can twins and trips WR formations with proper gameplanning. Overall, he always does a good job of breaking down the X's and O's for the masses.
Actually he does discuss the weaknesses against the spread (4 and 5 WR) in the comment section, basically we'd be in nickel or dime then anyways, just like we would be if we ran a base 3-4 or 4-3.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:22 AM   #4
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:30 AM   #5
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Great read!

I really like the simplicity of a 5-2. We have some raw talent on the defense. Using a simple approach, especially this season will give us a better chance to allow that talent to think less and just play.

My fear is what happens mid season... If this defense can learn and grow we might be able to add more and more "scheme" to help them out once that brutal stretch of 8 games is upon us.

If they are still behind the learning curve a 5-2 will get picked apart... Screens, Spread formations, and a good TE will make us look slow and stupid.

I like the way nolan put this together... Lets hope these guys keep learning and the scheme can diversify more as the season progresses.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:33 AM   #6
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Great article! What I find interesting is that this would make a guy like David Harris even more valuable because he is much more versatile and better in coverage than Davis. It appears the scheme is well matched to our personnel and the best scheme to compensate for some of our personnel weaknesses. It also makes clearer the reasons for the free agency pickups and some of the draft picks. What we have seen in preseason seems to bear out the strengths and weaknesses of the system. As the players adjust and learn the system, we should be able to mix things up more and more to create confusion for opposing offenses.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:47 AM   #7
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Only thing is Ayers isn't starting at either OLB position. Mario Haggan has been the starting @ left outside backer and he has been dropping into coverage. That fact that both he and Doom are rushing the passer is more about creating pressure and trying to force turnovers.

So in that sense it looks like a 5-2 but it's still a 3-4 base.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:48 AM   #8
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Why the hell did they even make that video? All they did was explain the name.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:49 AM   #9
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I'm pretty sure a true 5-2 has 5 down lineman. We leave our outside two standing, so it's just a 3-4.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:51 AM   #10
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One of the talking heads brought this up last week, how Carson Palmer can fry this set up over the middle. He'll take what you give him all day. I suppose you can make the 5-2 argument just on play to play, but I wonder if this setup is just being used to transition Dumervil into a new position. Kind of give him some back up. I'll be curious to see if that's how Nolan lines them up against Palmer.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:52 AM   #11
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I don't know, it seems many times, this defense still looks more like a 4-3 defense than anything else. At least lining up that way against the Bears, I saw mostly 4 on the line of scrimmage. I was hoping for a more complex scheme, but hopefully waiting for the regular season to show that.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:53 AM   #12
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i think regardless of the scheme, the team is going to struggle against TEs and RBs in coverage. we have 4 LBs who cant cover, easily the biggest weakness of the defense this year
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:56 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediator12 View Post
Here is another excellent article on the Broncos defense:

I'm making a pretty bold pronouncement. I do not believe that the Denver Broncos are running a true 3-4 defense at all, despite what the mainstream media may be reporting. I believe that the Broncos are running a 5-2, and I believe this for more than one reason. Below the fold, I will explain why I believe this to be true, and I will also explain some concepts about the 5-2 and also the system that seems to be emerging in Denver. I will also cover counters, as well as personnel considerations.

I have also received a lot of requests for information about the 5-2 under other posts. If I've left out a question, please accept my apologies and post it under this story. I will do my best to get to every question.








http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/9...denver-broncos
Well duh.

It's not friggen secret the Broncos employ the 5-2. Hell, just watch the damn games you see a 5-2, 5-2, 5-2, all the time.

The Broncos are "transitioning" into a 3-4.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:59 AM   #14
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The article says the 5-2 can "morph" to a 3-4. Well duh. Nolan is not going to rush 5 down linemen and try and cover with a straight mix of two corners, two safeties, and linebackers. .... So Den is NOT running a 5-2.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:18 AM   #15
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Haven't we been saying this since the go though? Doesn't Baltimore kind of run the same thing? (i cant imagnie Terrell Suggs and Jarrett Johnson) are real linebackers when they are both D-lineman (one a d-tackle!) by trade.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:28 AM   #16
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Well, duh! Beautiful response, that lacks all kinds of depth.

1. The 5-2 covers the fact the DL suck balls and uses sheer numbers to keep the running game from gouging the inside runs like last year. The 3-4 requires much better DL than DEN has to execute at the POA.

2. The LB's roles are simplified, versus the multiple variants the 3-4 employs. Its a KISS system versus a complex one the 3-4 brings. That fits DEN's intellectually challenged LB's that are constantly slow to read the play.

3. The secondary has got to be very solid in coverage versus base and multiple WR sets. That is why they got the Secondary players they did.

4. This is the first time in 2 years the scheme fits the personnel, instead of trying to cram square peg in a round hole.

But yeah, well DUH!
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:33 AM   #17
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Well, sort of. Den at present doesn't really have true 3-4 linebackers. But in the old days when Den ran 3-4's ... not all 3-4's are the same, as you say. Simon Fletcher was more a sack specialist than the 3-4 type guy of the orange crush - TJ and Bob Swenson. Swenson was perhaps the best pure pass coverage linebacker in Bronco history.

Parcells and Billicheat run different schemes. Billicheat uses more dline talent, and mixes in guys who are more tweaners as linebackers, while Parcells needs Andre Ware/Lawrence Taylor types.

But a pure 5-2 is more of a youth football scheme, with the front 5 having dedicated roles. Not much sophistication to it. But the article is good for pointing out where Nolan is fitting in the guys ... like Ayers. But, bottom line somebody better be able to zone cover and Nolan better have some zone blitzes. Seeing how Moreno and Nolan work out are pretty much the only positive reasons to watch, that I can see.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediator12 View Post
Well, duh! Beautiful response, that lacks all kinds of depth.

1. The 5-2 covers the fact the DL suck balls and uses sheer numbers to keep the running game from gouging the inside runs like last year. The 3-4 requires much better DL than DEN has to execute at the POA.

2. The LB's roles are simplified, versus the multiple variants the 3-4 employs. Its a KISS system versus a complex one the 3-4 brings. That fits DEN's intellectually challenged LB's that are constantly slow to read the play.

3. The secondary has got to be very solid in coverage versus base and multiple WR sets. That is why they got the Secondary players they did.

4. This is the first time in 2 years the scheme fits the personnel, instead of trying to cram square peg in a round hole.

But yeah, well DUH!

You started this thread like you were spreading some kind of wonderful knowledge about the Broncos' defense. Like this whole crazy "5-2" thingy needs some esssplaining!

Well duh.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:42 AM   #19
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5-2, 3-4, 4-3, 10-2 (if we cheat) the results will be better than last year. Not by much but it will be better. Better teams and QB's exploited our defense last year and will do it again this year. We just aren't where we want to be defensively and there isn't a person or fan in the league who doesn't know that. I'll be happy if at the end of the season the comments run along the lines of

"Hey they did damn well with what they had"

That will be my definition of success for the year.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:12 AM   #20
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5-2 is Peewee football at its best . sounds like slowic was not far off with what will work with our players we had .
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:13 AM   #21
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the big difference this year tackling .
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:39 AM   #22
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Old news...

June:

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"linemen Ryan McBean, Ronald Fields and Kenny Peterson; OLBs Tim Crowder and Robert Ayers; ILBs D.J. Williams and Andra Davis"

Good to know our base D is more 52 than 34... /wrists
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthr...hlight=crowder
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:42 AM   #23
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In terms of being technical, it's been more of a 4-3 over front than anything.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:43 AM   #24
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Didn't Nolan run some of this in Baltimore?


He's professed to the notion that we'll see multiple formations on a regular basis. Seems like he's telling the truth.

I like what I've seen so far. Excited to see how things improve as guys get more comfortable, and as younger guys like Ayers develop into contributors.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:43 AM   #25
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What he fails to address is the fact that the Spread formations, with proper protection, can easily exploit this scheme** and so can twins and trips WR formations with proper gameplanning.

**Just like they can exploit any D scheme, not just the 5-2.

Good takes Med.
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