Why left and right?

[Bob]

Why do so many see themselves politically in right and left terms, when it may not be as descriptive a tool, as other means? Is up and down in terms of government control vs individual Liberty a more important and more discriptive way to see oneself, and others in America?

If the answer is yes, how can that transformation be fostered?

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bob

Why do so many see themselves politically in right and left terms, when it may not be as descriptive a tool, as other means? Is up and down in terms of government control vs individual Liberty a more important and more discriptive way to see oneself, and others in America?

If the answer is yes, how can that transformation be fostered?

Well Bob , we on the left love the left right deal ....... it is an easy way to separate the good guys ( the left ) from Idiots aka the right .......

[footstepsfrom#27]

Left and right aren't adequate descriptors and obviously up and down is absurd. I don't consider myself to reside anywhere on the political spectrum. I simply seek answers and look at things as objectively as possible. Allegiance to a party or some kind of pre-defined ideology keeps people from doing that.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

Left and right aren't adequate descriptors and obviously up and down is absurd. I don't consider myself to reside anywhere on the political spectrum. I simply seek answers and look at things as objectively as possible. Allegiance to a party or some kind of pre-defined ideology keeps people from doing that.

I agree on the point of party allegiance -- when it rises to level where folks are inclined to turn a blind eye when your club does something, and scream from the hill yops when the other "side" does it.

Tell me why up and down is absurd -- it is narrow admittedly, but it is one measurement that seems forgotten by many (including the R's) and is one issue that our Founders bled and died for...

[W*GS]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...&postcount=245

[rastaman]

Originally Posted by Bob

Why do so many see themselves politically in right and left terms, when it may not be as descriptive a tool, as other means? Is up and down in terms of government control vs individual Liberty a more important and more discriptive way to see oneself, and others in America?

If the answer is yes, how can that transformation be fostered?

There has been a Left vs Right since the Reagan Revolution when the conservatives ascended to power over 30 years ago! With Obama's election into the WH, suddenly middle America and Red State America suddenly find themselves in the minority. You must remember, conservative America pulled up all stops to stop the first half black-half white African American President. Over 56 million conservatives went to the polls and it wasn't enough to stop the election of Obama and they failed by over 9 million votes. So conservative America is pissed off and angry and suddenly see's America moving in another direction.......and it ain't in the conservative direction.

Nothing last forever. Right-wing Conservatives must except the fact that there days reign maybe over in the 21st Century, unless the GOP finds a way to add more Hispanic and Blacks to their voting ranks.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by Bob

Tell me why up and down is absurd -- it is narrow admittedly, but it is one measurement that seems forgotten by many (including the R's) and is one issue that our Founders bled and died for...

It's absurd because you made the statement that depicted those in favor (up) of civil liberties and freedom as conservatives and those against (down) them and in favor of greater government control as liberals. In point of fact I could make a compelling argument that the exact opposite is true, thought I doubt we want to rabbit trail into that on this discussion. How people characterize personal liberties might differentiate people on the left and the right, but how many people do you think would answer in the affirmative if you asked them if they were in favor of lessening liberty in favor of government control? Probably the largest assault on liberty in this country is the one we've seen in the last eight years.

Here's a better idea. Why claim a party or a position at all? And I don't mean by that that you merely place an "I" next to your name. I'm talking about deliberately choosing to decide what you believe on the strength of three things, divorced in entirety from loyalty to any party affiliation:

1) Established facts
2) Relevant context
3) World view

Few people engage their brains through a process that consciously involves this practice. Observe the following and tell me where you think I fall on the political spectrum...

1) I see social justice, poverty and racism as moral rather than social problems.
2) I believe life begins at conception so I'm against abortion.
3) I think abortion is a states rights issue.
4) I believe in reforming the judical system and law enforcement to eliminate the impact of race/class prejudice.
5) I support the death penalty for capital crimes.
6) I'm against the arbitrary or capricious of the death penalty.
7) I favor legalizing drugs and I see drug laws as a government power grab.
8) I'm an evangelical Christian.
9) I'm against the religious right's agenda in government.
10) I favor faith based initiatives doing charitable work.
11) I'm against government involvement with "faith based initiatives".
12) Kids should be able to pray in school or join Bible clubs, etc.
13) I'm against laws to mandate prayer in the public schools or religious teaching.
14) I think censorship in most cases is unconstitutional.
15) I favor abstinence based sex education in schools.
16) I support birth control education and the availability of free condoms in high shcools.
17) I support civil rights initiatives including affirmative action.
18) I favor private enterprise solutions over most government social programs.
19) I support public involvement in solving poverty, homelessness, etc.
20) I believe we should be investing in inner city schools and economic infrastructure.
21) I support tougher academic standards in schools and merrit based teacher pay.
22) I reject suburban schools getting more funding than urban schools.
23) I believe in strong labor unions.
23) I favor free trade and a strong capitalistic/market based economy.
24) I'm against abusive corporate power or corporate welfare.
25) I favor environmental action, green tech, getting off fossil fuels and addressing global warming, etc.
26) I believe in a strong US military.
27) I don't believe the US should police the world or engage in unjust wars.
28) I favor strong anti terrorism efforts.
29) I'm against government spying on it's own citizens without casue.
30) I believe in the right to bear arms and favor practical & justifiable limits.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by rastaman

There has been a Left vs Right since the Reagan Revolution when the conservatives ascended to power over 30 years ago! With Obama's election into the WH, suddenly middle America and Red State America suddenly find themselves in the minority. You must remember, conservative America pulled up all stops to stop the first half black-half white African American President. Over 56 million conservatives went to the polls and it wasn't enough to stop the election of Obama and they failed by over 9 million votes. So conservative America is pissed off and angry and suddenly see's America moving in another direction.......and it ain't in the conservative direction.

Nothing last forever. Right-wing Conservatives must except the fact that there days reign maybe over in the 21st Century, unless the GOP finds a way to add more Hispanic and Blacks to their voting ranks.

Hmmm, you might be making my point...about the smallness of right and left thinking.

I may be saying something else -- remember the political graphs on that test many took a year or so ago -- one thing it measured was folks willingness to have government control various aspects of folks lives -- very few here were high on the control side of things under Bush (both right and left) but now, I wonder if that stance of greater Liberty, less big government etc, was only a reaction to Bush's ursurping liberty [B]as he was right of center?[/B]-- now, we see the same thing on the right regarding the Obama admin -- when most said little (until the end of Bush's term.) The bigger issue may be that year after year we see the Exec branch grow in power -- despite if it is a D or an R at the head, or who's in Congress -- and I think this myopia will betray both left and right in the end. Thats my take anyway.

regarding the real beginnings of left and right, I think it had to do with the seating arrangement in the English house of Commons or Parlament -- if memory serves.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

It's absurd because you made the statement that depicted those in favor (up) of civil liberties and freedom as conservatives and those against (down) them and in favor of greater government control as liberals. In point of fact I could make a compelling argument that the exact opposite is true, thought I doubt we want to rabbit trail into that on this discussion. How people characterize personal liberties might differentiate people on the left and the right, but how many people do you think would answer in the affirmative if you asked them if they were in favor of lessening liberty in favor of government control? Probably the largest assault on liberty in this country is the one we've seen in the last eight years.

Here's a better idea. Why claim a party or a position at all? And I don't mean by that that you merely place an "I" next to your name. I'm talking about deliberately choosing to decide what you believe on the strength of three things, divorced in entirety from loyalty to any party affiliation:

1) Established facts
2) Relevant context
3) World view

Few people engage their brains through a process that consciously involves this practice. Observe the following and tell me where you think I fall on the political spectrum...

1) I see social justice, poverty and racism as moral rather than social problems.
2) I believe life begins at conception so I'm against abortion.
3) I think abortion is a states rights issue.
4) I believe in reforming the judical system and law enforcement to eliminate the impact of race/class prejudice.
5) I support the death penalty for capital crimes.
6) I'm against the arbitrary or capricious of the death penalty.
7) I favor legalizing drugs and I see drug laws as a government power grab.
8) I'm an evangelical Christian.
9) I'm against the religious right's agenda in government.
10) I favor faith based initiatives doing charitable work.
11) I'm against government involvement with "faith based initiatives".
12) Kids should be able to pray in school or join Bible clubs, etc.
13) I'm against laws to mandate prayer in the public schools or religious teaching.
14) I think censorship in most cases is unconstitutional.
15) I favor abstinence based sex education in schools.
16) I support birth control education and the availability of free condoms in high shcools.
17) I support civil rights initiatives including affirmative action.
18) I favor private enterprise solutions over most government social programs.
19) I support public involvement in solving poverty, homelessness, etc.
20) I believe we should be investing in inner city schools and economic infrastructure.
21) I support tougher academic standards in schools and merrit based teacher pay.
22) I reject suburban schools getting more funding than urban schools.
23) I believe in strong labor unions.
23) I favor free trade and a strong capitalistic/market based economy.
24) I'm against abusive corporate power or corporate welfare.
25) I favor environmental action, green tech, getting off fossil fuels and addressing global warming, etc.
26) I believe in a strong US military.
27) I don't believe the US should police the world or engage in unjust wars.
28) I favor strong anti terrorism efforts.
29) I'm against government spying on it's own citizens without casue.
30) I believe in the right to bear arms and favor practical & justifiable limits.

I dont think you really know my stance on this one ... when I speak of up -- the way the grarph read was up meant one was ok with more control/power of government -- and less meant they felt like governmnet should have less power -- a few years ago most here on the Mane were down on government having much power -- very few left and right here were more than one notch up ... And really I am at least attempting to see when the right trampled on rights as well -- as they have -- I am not above saying it is harder to see it when the person is closer to my ideology though -- and that may be the very problem we are having now -- and when an R gets elected -- if not a Ron Paul type I do worry the trend to hell will continue, and I hope conservatives will remember...

regarding not standing by any political affliliation, I think that is a wise position.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by Bob

I dont think you really know my stance on this one ... when I speak of up -- the way the grarph read was up meant one was ok with more control/power of government -- and less meant they felt like governmnet should have less power -- a few years ago most here on the Mane were down on government having much power -- very few left and right here were more than one notch up ... And really I am at least attempting to see when the right trampled on rights as well -- as they have -- I am not above saying it is harder to see it when the person is closer to my ideology though -- and that may be the very problem we are having now -- and when an R gets elected -- if not a Ron Paul type I do worry the trend to hell will continue, and I hope conservatives will remember...

regarding not standing by any political affliliation, I think that is a wise position.

So by looking at the list, where would you say I fall on the political spectrum using either left/right or up/down? Or does it look like it's possible to define that?

[Bob]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

So by looking at the list, where would you say I fall on the political spectrum using either left/right or up/down? Or does it look like it's possible to define that?

Not in your case, your all over the place ...

I think I would break some of the rules as well in terms of left and right, but find that I am wanting government less involved the older I get. Based on your list I am suprised we disagree on topics as often as we do...

Depending on what powers are grabbed (if they are) as time moves on, we may find we are on the same side more often.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by Bob

Why do so many see themselves politically in right and left terms, when it may not be as descriptive a tool, as other means? Is up and down in terms of government control vs individual Liberty a more important and more discriptive way to see oneself, and others in America?

If the answer is yes, how can that transformation be fostered?

Bob,

As you may have noticed I don't really post a ton in the WRP forum when it comes to political issues.

the reason is simple:

The Left/Right-Republican/Democrat-Liberal/Conservative model, is binary. It is true/false. 1, 0. There is no movement. It is a controlled illusion of choice. It is obsolete.

The goal of the Delphi technique is to lead a targeted group of people to a predetermined outcome, while giving the illusion of taking public input and under the pretext of being accountable to the public.

I just lost interest with politics when i "came to the end" of it. When i realized it was really 'madness'. It never changes, people become galvanized due to their sense of 'belong' to the identity they wish to cling to. Meanwhile, they turn a blind eye when they point out the "evils" done by the "opposing team".

People that actually believe in the left/right meme of political thought in this country, as is - the left/right dynamic - IMO - are obsolete.

So while many people here want to continue to argue which "side" is right, it's obsolete.

It boils down to choice, the illusion of choice, and how it creates control. This isn't a "conspiracy" idea (other than that those in power exploit it for their own means), but an actualized observation that I wished more people were able to observe.

But, with 'programming', and our consumerist based society - most people only consume what is within their reality landscape when it comes to media/information. It becomes a bit of self-perpetuating form of brainwashing.

People become galvanized to their ideas, which facilitates dogmatic thinking. It's easier to move a group of people around, than it is an individual.

(which in our consumerist society, we are all sold the idea of being individuals by being able to buy accessories that show what and who we are! - sorry off topic, but sort of relates.)

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by amesj523

I just lost interest with politics when i "came to the end" of it. When i realized it was really 'madness'. It never changes, people become galvanized due to their sense of 'belong' to the identity they wish to cling to. Meanwhile, they turn a blind eye when they point out the "evils" done by the "opposing team".

So it's like the Broncos?