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Old 07-29-2009, 07:30 AM   #1
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ENGLEWOOD, Colo. (AP) -- Not since his days at Purdue has Denver Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton entered training camp as the definitive starter.

With the promotion comes more snaps, responsibility and a heap of pressure as Orton now resides in the long shadow cast by Hall of Famer John Elway.

The legacy of No. 7 has been difficult to live up to. The Broncos have won just one playoff game since Elway retired with two Super Bowl titles a decade ago.

Not that it's a bad thing. Chris Simms, Orton's backup, welcomes the comparisons.

"He's set quite a legacy here for the quarterbacks," said Simms, whose father, Phil Simms, was a Super Bowl MVP for the New York Giants when they beat the Broncos in 1987. "Maybe I'm different than others because of my dad -- I grew up with people comparing me to a quarterback all the time. I think it's a pretty awesome thing to have."

For Orton, this is a far cry from his days with the Chicago Bears, who haven't had a franchise quarterback in ages and who traded Orton and three draft picks to Denver for Jay Cutler this spring.

Orton is already experiencing the magnitude of being the main quarterback in the Mile High City. Fans recognize him on the streets even though he's been in town for just a short while.

"It's fun," Orton said of the attention.

Just wait.

There's a long list of quarterbacks who have passed through town that haven't been able to measure up to Elway in wins, charisma or moxie.

Cutler -- who boasts an Elway-like rocket for an arm -- was on his way, but had a falling out with new coach Josh McDaniels that led to his trade to Chicago.

In minicamp, Orton won the job over Simms.

The competition, though, is far from finished. It's Orton's job now, but Simms can make up ground.

"We're going to evaluate the quarterbacks just like we do every other position," McDaniels said. "If Chris is the most effective quarterback in our system by September, then he'll start ... It's going to make Kyle a better football player, it's going to make Chris a better football player and hopefully it's going to make our team a better football team."

Orton doesn't have the arm of Cutler, nor the petulant personality. That just might serve to lighten the stress load in the locker room, especially coming off a season in which the Broncos squandered a three-game lead with three to go and missed the playoffs for a third straight season.

The Broncos insist the Cutler chapter is officially closed, and that they've moved on. But the ordeal will surface again when Cutler comes to town for a preseason game on Aug. 30.

Orton is already becoming quite comfortable with McDaniels' complicated system that doesn't require a cannon arm as much as precision reads at the line of scrimmage and pinpoint passing.

"I know all the plays," said Orton, who threw for 2,972 yards last season. "I can get up on the board and talk you through every play and do all that stuff. But have I repped everything 20, 30, 40 times? No, and that's what it takes. When you're playing, it's got to be second nature. Really, that's my goal: try to get as much stuff as possible to become second nature."

While in Chicago, Orton posted a 21-12 record as a starter. He also was sacked 59 times, including 27 last season.

Now he'll enjoy the benefits of a stout offensive line that surrendered only 12 sacks last season.

Orton has a cast of receivers that includes Brandon Stokley, Eddie Royal, Jabar Gaffney and, of course, Brandon Marshall, a Pro Bowler last season after his second straight 100-catch season.

That is if Marshall sticks around.

Marshall has made it clear through his body language and clipped responses that he is unhappy in Denver. He skipped all the offseason workouts while rehabbing from a hip operation and for what he perceived was a misdiagnosis of his injury by the team's medical staff. He's also discontent with his contract.

Still, he's in camp -- although he sat out Tuesday for health reasons -- and that's great with Orton.

"He really catches the ball well," Orton said. "I'm excited to work with him."

Does he think Marshall will be here to start the season?

"Everybody hopes he's here and can do some great things," Orton said. "I'm excited to play in this offense. It's a great system for the quarterback."




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Old 07-29-2009, 07:38 AM   #2
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Cutler -- who boasts an Elway-like rocket for an arm -- was on his way, but had a falling out with new coach Josh McDaniels that led to his trade to Chicago.
I hate the Elway comparisons, it is like comparing anyone to Jordan...there won't be another one

BUT....Jay was not on his way to Elway status, Elway knew how to lead a team even while being a cocky bastard

that is why Jay won't ever be elite, IMO

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Old 07-29-2009, 07:43 AM   #3
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I hate the Elway comparisons, it is like comparing anyone to Jordan...there won't be another one, so let's move on

BUT....Jay was not on his way to Elway status, Elway knew how to lead a team even while being a cocky bastard

that is why Jay won't ever be elite, IMO
Why do people feel the need to make predictions about Cutler knowing full well they could easily be wrong. Yeah, Elway is loved and Cutler isnt. That doesnt mean Cutler sucks as tempting as it is to pile on. I think if people are honets with themselves, Elway at a similar stage in his career isnt THAT much better than Cutler.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:49 AM   #4
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Why do people feel the need to make predictions about Cutler knowing full well they could easily be wrong. Yeah, Elway is loved and Cutler isnt. That doesnt mean Cutler sucks as tempting as it is to pile on. I think if people are honets with themselves, Elway at a similar stage in his career isnt THAT much better than Cutler.
Physically, I completely agree with you Lex.....but as I said in a similar thread (before being udressed, tarred and feathered by the Cutlerites) you have to look at the actual success that they had with their teams. Elway was winning right away with mediocre talent around him...he showed the knack for leadership and coming up big in clutch situations.

Cutler showed flashes of being clutch but he never struck me as a leader. He still has a lot of time to find that, but I think Elway was light years ahead of him at similar stages in the early years of their careers
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:51 AM   #5
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That's a first for him.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:52 AM   #6
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Why do people feel the need to make predictions about Cutler knowing full well they could easily be wrong. Yeah, Elway is loved and Cutler isnt. That doesnt mean Cutler sucks as tempting as it is to pile on. I think if people are honets with themselves, Elway at a similar stage in his career isnt THAT much better than Cutler.
See Elway was loved by Broncos fans but other then that people hate him because of his teeth for love of god.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:54 AM   #7
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Physically, I completely agree with you Lex.....but as I said in a similar thread (before being udressed, tarred and feathered by the Cutlerites) you have to look at the actual success that they had with their teams. Elway was winning right away with mediocre talent around him...he showed the knack for leadership and coming up big in clutch situations.

Cutler showed flashes of being clutch but he never struck me as a leader. He still has a lot of time to find that, but I think Elway was light years ahead of him at similar stages in the early years of their careers
At a similar stage in Elway's career the defense wasnt even as close to as horrific as its been the past two years. Elway wasnt required to score 33 points a game in losses. At the same time, Shanahan was a better coach to play for in accumulating stats than Reeves was. So it cuts both ways, where thats concerned.

So, at the same time you cant definitively say Cutler was a better QB because of statistics, you also cant say Elway was a better QB because he played on teams whose defenses performed much better than those we've seen the last couple of years.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:11 AM   #8
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At a similar stage in Elway's career the defense wasnt even as close to as horrific as its been the past two years. Elway wasnt required to score 33 points a game in losses. At the same time, Shanahan was a better coach to play for in accumulating stats than Reeves was. So it cuts both ways, where thats concerned.

So, at the same time you cant definitively say Cutler was a better QB because of statistics, you also cant say Elway was a better QB because he played on teams whose defenses performed much better than those we've seen the last couple of years.
Defensively the teams are not comparable...thats very fair to say.

However, do you think there is a chance Elway loses that game to San Fran on New Year's Eve?? That wasn't our defenses fault (although Gore killed us). How about the game against the BIlls last year?

I just think Elway had something at a young age that Cutler has YET to get....he may figure it out one day, and that may be the day the true "winner" of this whole fiasco is determined
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:20 AM   #9
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Defensively the teams are not comparable...thats very fair to say.

However, do you think there is a chance Elway loses that game to San Fran on New Year's Eve?? That wasn't our defenses fault (although Gore killed us). How about the game against the BIlls last year?

I just think Elway had something at a young age that Cutler has YET to get....he may figure it out one day, and that may be the day the true "winner" of this whole fiasco is determined
Jake Plummer didn't help us much that game either.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:22 AM   #10
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That's a first for him.
Same with cassel. The difference is orton didn't warm the bench in college, and is in the record books there. 3 bowl game starts to boot.
But hats off to the chefs for grossly overpaying a one year system quarterback.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:24 AM   #11
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Why do people feel the need to make predictions about Cutler knowing full well they could easily be wrong. Yeah, Elway is loved and Cutler isnt. That doesnt mean Cutler sucks as tempting as it is to pile on. I think if people are honets with themselves, Elway at a similar stage in his career isnt THAT much better than Cutler.

By year three under Elway, Denver was in the superbowl...year three under Cutler, the HC got fired and he got traded...world of difference.


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Old 07-29-2009, 08:29 AM   #12
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Same with cassel. The difference is orton didn't warm the bench in college, and is in the record books there. 3 bowl game starts to boot.
But hats off to the chefs for grossly overpaying a one year system quarterback.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:34 AM   #13
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See Elway was loved by Broncos fans but other then that people hate him because of his teeth for love of god.
Not exactly correct. The media and plenty of people in Denver and beyond wanted Elway run of out town because he was a Superbowl "loser". The bandwagon "love" affair with Elway really didn't start until mid 90's or so.

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Old 07-29-2009, 08:37 AM   #14
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While in Chicago, Orton posted a 21-12 record as a starter. He also was sacked 59 times, including 27 last season.

Now he'll enjoy the benefits of a stout offensive line that surrendered only 12 sacks last season.

This is what I am hoping leads Kyle to throw for over 3500 yards and be a success in the system.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by vancejohnson82 View Post
Defensively the teams are not comparable...thats very fair to say.

However, do you think there is a chance Elway loses that game to San Fran on New Year's Eve?? That wasn't our defenses fault (although Gore killed us). How about the game against the BIlls last year?

I just think Elway had something at a young age that Cutler has YET to get....he may figure it out one day, and that may be the day the true "winner" of this whole fiasco is determined
Perhaps you have forgotten but Cutler was playing in his 5th game and had received a concussion on top of that. That was Plummers opportunity to be a professional.

The truth is that we've won a lot of close games under Cutler, even at this early stage of his career. Dont forget that the game after the SF game was the Buffalo game (the first game the next season). That game was as thrilling as it gets. Cutler was great in that last drive. But basically, we've won a lot of the "winnable games" (ie the games decided by less than a touchdown, lets say for discussion) with Cutler. Last year, we won all five of our games that were decided by 5 or fewer points. For as much grief as Cutler gets, a lot is overlooked where winning winnable games are concerned.

If Cutler has a problem with partying, the criticisms along those lines are totally valid. But to solely focus on that and ignore that he has performed very well in a lot of close games is silly.

Understand that I was not someone who blindly accepts Cutler. But to me he's not defined by what transpired in the fallout after the trade discussions. My grievances go back before that. I have the impression that he was a little self-absorbed and overly worried about putting up numbers. But you know what? Dan Marino was this way. But I thought the team was constructed in a way that cowtowed to Cutlers desire to put up #s and as a result, we were too pass happy and continued the same tired approach too RB, which was pure hubris (but thats on Shanahan too).

I was annoyed with what I had heard regarding Cutlers reaction to Shanahan getting fired. The guy was b****ing about our defense last year but was all bent out of shape when Shanahan was fired after claiming he was going to keep Slowik. Theres something disengenuous there. I think he wanted a good defense but not at the expense of giving up his comfort zone, which was having Bates and Shanahan around.

I voiced this complaint then. People have forgotten this due to my objection to Bowlen bringing in McDaniels.

Anyway (I kind of got sidetracked but you asked for my thoughts), I think if you look at Elway and Cutler, theyre close enough. I think Elway was more of a professional though. I think Elway was less self-absorbed. While Elway kind of resented not being utilized as a passer to the extent where he had better career numbers, you didnt see the same level of petulance that I sense comes from Cutler. Again, I think Elway was more of a pro. While Elway clearly had a stronger arm and might have been slightly more elusive, I dont think the difference between Cutler and Elway is that great in terms of talent. Cutler seems to be a little more accurate and throw with better touch than Elway at a similar stage. But that could also be play design and surrounding talent.

I just think there is a lot of dishonesty due to the entrenchment that has existed around here.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:42 AM   #16
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By year three under Elway, Denver was in the superbowl...year three under Cutler, the HC got fired and he got traded...world of difference.


Since when did QBs become prize fighters and not part of a team?
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:49 AM   #17
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Since when did QBs become prize fighters and not part of a team?

Really, thats the best counterpoint you can come up with?


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Old 07-29-2009, 08:52 AM   #18
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Really, thats the best counterpoint you can come up with?


Thats all you need when someone suggests the QB is solely responsible for success.

It may not have been the best but I was more worried about "good enough" than "best".

Its kind of comical that you even thought your point was even that bulletproof. Novice.
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:15 AM   #19
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Thats all you need when someone suggests the QB is solely responsible for success.

It may not have been the best but I was more worried about "good enough" than "best".

Its kind of comical that you even thought your point was even that bulletproof. Novice.

For the 1980's Denver Broncos, the QB was soley responsible for the Broncos success.

Jay had more offensive talent around him in any of his three seasons here then Elway had for most of a decade.

Elway did more with less.

So maybe I dont understand your apparent disregard for Elway and your overwhelming protective streak for Jay. If Bronco fans being loyal to the team bother you that much, maybe you should become a Bears fan.

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Old 07-29-2009, 09:18 AM   #20
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For the 1980's Denver Broncos, the QB was soley responsible for the Broncos success.

Jay had more offensive talent around him in any of his three seasons here then Elway had for most of a decade.

Elway did more with less.

So maybe I dont understand your apparent disregard for Elway and your overwhelming protective streak for Jay. If Bronco fans being loyal to the team bother you that much, maybe you should become a Bears fan.


I havent disregarded Elway at all. You should revisit my posts in this thread. Its pretty obvious that I dont discredit Elway at all.

This fit youre throwing is more about you, which is something Ive also addressed in citing that many arent being honest with themselves.
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:22 AM   #21
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I havent disregarded Elway at all. You should revisit my posts in this thread. Its pretty obvious that I dont discredit Elway at all.

This fit youre throwing is more about you, which is something Ive also addressed in citing that many arent being honest with themselves.

Whatever works for you, princess.


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Old 07-29-2009, 09:23 AM   #22
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Whatever works for you, princess.



And youre the guy who said, "this is the best you can do". .
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:19 AM   #23
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"Orton clear starter going into camp"

I have been crying for months now. Just reading this title, I'm not sure how any Bronco fan isn't.

This team is about to learn a lesson. A young player that acts immature can make himself look bad. When the person in charge acts the same way, it ruins the team. I still can't understand how Bronco fans can be ok with giving away a very good young qb. I'm sure you will all love the fact that our team will be a punchline for many decades after this plays out some.

I hope this post turns out ok. This is my first time posting on a message board, or typing this much, from my phone.

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Old 07-29-2009, 01:24 PM   #24
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"Orton clear starter going into camp"

I have been crying for months now. Just reading this title, I'm not sure how any Bronco fan isn't.

This team is about to learn a lesson. A young player that acts immature can make himself look bad. When the person in charge acts the same way, it ruins the team. I still can't understand how Bronco fans can be ok with giving away a very good young qb. I'm sure you will all love the fact that our team will be a punchline for many decades after this plays out some.

I hope this post turns out ok. This is my first time posting on a message board, or typing this much, from my phone.
that is the speed of it ...
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:26 PM   #25
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"I know all the plays," said Orton, who threw for 2,972 yards last season. "I can get up on the board and talk you through every play and do all that stuff."

I actually think that's pretty impressive given what I have heard about the complexity and size of the playbook. Of course the ability to actually carry out the plays in a real game is important too but this at least indicates the guy is smart and studies his ass off.

I also disagree with the premise that Orton is under Elway's shadow. He might actually be the first starting Denver QB since Elway to avoid that expectation, because so many people expect only mediocrity out of him.
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