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Old 07-13-2009, 01:23 PM   #1
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Default OT : Sorry, Bears Fans, cutler Isnít the Answer

The Football Scientist, KC Joyner, is a Fifth Down contributor. Lab results from “Scientific Football 2009,” to be published in August, are available for those who order the book now.

Every Thursday at 4 p.m., I do a chat on ESPN.com’s SportsNation Web site. The chat format allows people to post any kind of question they want, so the topics tend to jump around a lot.

That wasn’t the case this past Thursday, or at least it wasn’t after Alex from Chicago asked how well I thought Jay Cutler would do with the Bears this year. I told him: “I’ve said it many times and I’ll say it again — Cutler will make Bears fans remember Rex Grossman. He’ll make just as many crazy passes but won’t suffer the Grossman fate because Chicago’s fan base is so in love with him that they will forgive the nutty throws he makes in ways that they never forgave Grossman.” Much of the rest of the chat was dominated by Bears fans wanting to give me a piece of their minds.

It didn’t stop there. Brad Biggs of the Inside The Bears blog on The Chicago Sun-Times posted my comments there, and many of his readers also took me to task (including one who said “I unemotionally state KC Joyner is an idiot”). That trend continued when Aaron Wilson of ProFootballTalk.com posted a comment about Brad’s story there on Saturday (and multiple Chicago followers threw both Brad and me under the bus).

Now I understand that fan scrutiny comes with the territory, so I don’t mind that, but what I don’t understand is why those fans are treating Cutler differently than they did either Grossman or Kyle Orton.

Grossman was on fire during the first part of Chicago’s Super Bowl season, and yet as soon as he had the bad game against Miami, it seemed the entire city turned on him. It didn’t go that much differently for Orton. He had a tremendous start to the 2008 season, but when he struggled down the stretch, the populace seemed to say goodbye and good riddance without much of a second thought.

I also don’t understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go.

Another way to look at this is that Cutler’s overall record is 17-20 versus Orton’s overall record of 21-12 and Grossman’s 19-12. I know there are those who will defend this by saying that Cutler worked with a horrible defense last year, but when he took over the Broncos in 2006, they were less than a full season removed from hosting the AFC championship game.

The only reason I can come up with as to why Bears fans are reacting like this is that the quarterback position has been such a headache for them over the years that they will do just about anything to make it go away. If that means ignoring Cutler’s shortcomings so that at least one off-season goes by without having to wonder if their quarterback’s play will measure up, they’ll do it just for the temporary peace of mind. I do admire that kind of team passion and loyalty, but I’d admire it a bit more if it were done by hoping that Cutler could improve his game rather than by backing his mixed bag of performance history.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2...nt-the-answer/



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Old 07-13-2009, 01:26 PM   #2
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this was already posted I thought, and who gives a ****...he is not a Bronco anymore

I am seriously getting sick of this crap
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:28 PM   #3
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this was already posted I thought...
Correct, earlier today in the Cutler = Grossman? thread. But we'll give him a pass since it's negative Cutler material...
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:28 PM   #4
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this was already posted I thought, and who gives a ****...he is not a Bronco anymore

I am seriously getting sick of this crap
I agree, but its good to read some negative on Cudler
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:30 PM   #5
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Why did you classify this as "OT?"
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:32 PM   #6
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Why did you classify this as "OT?"
Overly Talked about maybe lol

I know it is bad but all the Cutler division is making it hard to read any thread, let alone new ones with the same **** in them

**** my life I want football here, I would rather talk about us losing a game than this right now
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:38 PM   #7
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Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. Just let Cutler be. Hey, if he ****s the pot, good for you guys.

Fact is he probably won't and we'll have to hear these excuses about how the guy sucks when he doesn't.

KC Joyner is a dumbass. His statistics are always horribly weighted and predictable. There are so many factors that go into the game of football and the numbers almost never tell the true story. Look at John Elway's first 10 years in the NFL as far as his stats go. He only got over 3500 yds twice, never finished with higher than 57% completion percentage, and had more INT's than TD's. What do you think people would be saying about his career in today's media in retrospect?

Cutler has great stats and has had to carry this team. While he wasn't perfect, he has more than thrived given the talent he's had to work with.
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:44 PM   #8
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Cutler has great stats .
Not really. They're decent. 86 QB rating, I believe. Not sure I'd call that "great." Far too many INTs last year for a 3 year "blue chip" QB.

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had to carry this team. .
"Carry?" To a 7-9 record? (8-8 if you count the game he fumbled away that the refs gave back.)

Again, not so sure I'd say he "carried" anything.

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he has more than thrived given the talent he's had to work with.
A top-notch line, one of the best receiving corps in the game, a top 12 running game and one of the best offensive play-callers in the NFL?

Sorry, I'm missing the "what he had to work with" aspect of that scenario?
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:44 PM   #9
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Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. Just let Cutler be. Hey, if he ****s the pot, good for you guys.

Fact is he probably won't and we'll have to hear these excuses about how the guy sucks when he doesn't.

KC Joyner is a dumbass. His statistics are always horribly weighted and predictable. There are so many factors that go into the game of football and the numbers almost never tell the true story. Look at John Elway's first 10 years in the NFL as far as his stats go. He only got over 3500 yds twice, never finished with higher than 57% completion percentage, and had more INT's than TD's. What do you think people would be saying about his career in today's media in retrospect?

Cutler has great stats and has had to carry this team. While he wasn't perfect, he has more than thrived given the talent he's had to work with.

I'm a huge skeptic of Joyner's work in general (for the reasons you mention) BUT the stats he is citing in regards to Jay are valid. Jay does tend to force balls and lock on receivers.
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:46 PM   #10
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Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. .
Chris, what better describes "jilted?"

A. Pining for a QB who quit on you, even though he's not coming back.

B. Saying **** 'em, we'll move on without him.


There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:52 PM   #11
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Not really. They're decent. 86 QB rating, I believe. Not sure I'd call that "great." Far too many INTs last year for a 3 year "blue chip" QB.



"Carry?" To a 7-9 record? (8-8 if you count the game he fumbled away that the refs gave back.)

Again, not so sure I'd say he "carried" anything.



A top-notch line, one of the best receiving corps in the game, a top 12 running game and one of the best offensive play-callers in the NFL?

Sorry, I'm missing the "what he had to work with" aspect of that scenario?
I know, you hate Jay. That's all you have to say. Everybody knows that. Nobody is arguing with you on this thread, i'm just paying the guy respect because he's earned mine. He's played his ass off over the previous 2 and half years starting. He's put together a great career so far and he's the main reason that our teams haven't been considerably worse in 07', and 08'. The wins would come if he had a better overall team around him. He hasn't had the luxury of being eased into his position like Ben Rothlisberger among others or by having a great supporting cast. He's made the most of that. Maybe that didn't equate enough wins for you. So be it. He balled out and held the weight of this city up when most other QB's would have crumbled under it. Moving forward he's only going to get better from where he's at.

I am confident Jay is going to have a very good career and he'll be a pro bowl/winning QB for the Bears. Maybe some don't want to agree to that. It's fine. It will play out on the field and then most will have to resort to some of reason to try and dog him.

Go Broncos.
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:55 PM   #12
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Chris, what better describes "jilted?"

A. Pining for a QB who quit on you, even though he's not coming back.

B. Saying **** 'em, we'll move on without him.


There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?
You left out option C.

I got divorced, so I know what jilted women act like.

They make crazy revisionist history **** up, lie constantly and obsessively attack anyone that still likes you (or Cutler in this instance).

So yes, you're the jilted lover.
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:56 PM   #13
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There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?
The guy with 20 plus posts in one Cutler thread.


You.
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:56 PM   #14
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Chris, what better describes "jilted?"

A. Pining for a QB who quit on you, even though he's not coming back.

B. Saying **** 'em, we'll move on without him.


There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?
Go Broncos.

A. I can pull for whoever I damn well please. Jay didn't quit on this team. He and McDaniels couldn't work together. Both made errors and Jay got his wish to be out of a situation which he deemed unhealthy. Let me emphasis, TWO PARTIES were at fault here.

B. Go Broncos. I don't care if people choose to hate Jay from here on out. To pull out every little article to bash him is stupid in my opinion. It will get worse when he wins when he leaves as well. It doesn't work for us and him. It sucks. Time to move on though. Good luck Cutler, and go Broncos.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:00 PM   #15
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They make crazy revisionist history **** up, lie constantly and obsessively attack anyone that still likes you (or Cutler in this instance).
Look, I think he's a douche-bag. I think he showed himself for what he is. (After giving many hints before this.) No revision needed. That's all pretty straight forward.

The flipside to your divorce equation is LOSING the pain in the ass, crazy wife. (I'd imagine.)

To me, this team had a divorce and is better for it. I'm stoked for the future.
Nothing jilted about that. Will I be wrong? Maybe, but I'm still excited for the future of this team.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:00 PM   #16
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I'm a huge skeptic of Joyner's work in general (for the reasons you mention) BUT the stats he is citing in regards to Jay are valid. Jay does tend to force balls and lock on receivers.
... i'm not arguing those attributes. But when your talents are greater, you can make those throws. In large part, he's had a great deal of success throwing the way that he does even though maybe you, or I, or that dumbass KC Joyner doesn't like it.

Jay has a longer leash because of his ability. He can make throws few guys in the NFL can. Ultimately he'll have to find a way to disguise certain things if he's going to be great. The premise of the article is that Joyner doesn't think that much of Jay and Bears fans will be disappointed when that couldn't be further from the truth. He's going to do very well in Chicago, they're going to win and once again Joyner will look like a jackass.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:05 PM   #17
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Look, I think he's a douche-bag. I think he showed himself for what he is. (After giving many hints before this.) No revision needed. That's all pretty straight forward.

The flipside to your divorce equation is LOSING the pain in the ass, crazy wife. (I'd imagine.)

To me, this team had a divorce and is better for it. I'm stoked for the future.
Nothing jilted about that. Will I be wrong? Maybe, but I'm still excited for the future of this team.
... but you and those in your camp will continue to bash him even when it's unprovoked...

" OH LOOK, JAY IS A JACKASS, HE FIRED HIS REAL ESTATE AGENT BACK IN DENVER! LOOK LOOK!"

These are the same type of guys that wish for their ex's to get fat and ugly after they just broke up with them, then stalk them on public profiles privately hoping for bad things to happen with them. DESPERATE.

I hope Denver wins next season and I can't wait for the unabashed Cutler slander that's going to take place when Chicago is successful and Jay is at the helm.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:06 PM   #18
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Look at John Elway's first 10 years in the NFL as far as his stats go. He only got over 3500 yds twice, never finished with higher than 57% completion percentage, and had more INT's than TD's. What do you think people would be saying about his career in today's media in retrospect?
They'd probably marvel about how he wins, how he took crappy teams to 3 Superbowls, how he despite being held back for 3 quarters in the Reeves Run, Run, Pass, Punt style would win games pretty much all his own. John Elway would have killed to have an offense like this his first 10 years.

Here's the whole key to why I personally am indifferent to Jay Cutler becoming a Bear (I was excited to see what McD could do with him) - I could care less what anyone's stats are, WIN. Period. The reason most people care about stats is fantasy football.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:07 PM   #19
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weather one wishes jay well in the future or not (I for one hope a tiger eats his face off) I think any talk about him is vital for the next year when one considers our 1st round draft pick is directly tied to how he plays
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:09 PM   #20
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Look, I think he's a douche-bag. I think he showed himself for what he is. (After giving many hints before this.) No revision needed. That's all pretty straight forward.

The flipside to your divorce equation is LOSING the pain in the ass, crazy wife. (I'd imagine.)

To me, this team had a divorce and is better for it. I'm stoked for the future.
Nothing jilted about that. Will I be wrong? Maybe, but I'm still excited for the future of this team.
To be honest, I do see you as the jilted lover. The one telling herself everything's gonna be alright and going out to sleep as many new quarterbacks as possible to try and forget.

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Old 07-13-2009, 02:14 PM   #21
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Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. Just let Cutler be. .
Yeah, I'm sure KC Joyner is really hurt about Cutler leaving the Broncos.

The only people who are acting like jilted lovers are people like you who swoop in and defend a guy not on our team, spew hatred at the coach for creating your "divorce" and then proclaim the season a failure before a down has been played.

LEAVE CUTLER ALONEE!!!!!

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Old 07-13-2009, 02:19 PM   #22
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They'd probably marvel about how he wins, how he took crappy teams to 3 Superbowls, how he despite being held back for 3 quarters in the Reeves Run, Run, Pass, Punt style would win games pretty much all his own. John Elway would have killed to have an offense like this his first 10 years.

Here's the whole key to why I personally am indifferent to Jay Cutler becoming a Bear (I was excited to see what McD could do with him) - I could care less what anyone's stats are, WIN. Period. The reason most people care about stats is fantasy football.
My point is a guy like KC Joyner is an idiot and would tear the early John Elway apart for making bad throws, relying on his arm too much, looking to run first, etc, etc. So to use this information against Jay because Joyner doesn't like him is a stupid joke.

Bronco fans know why Elway was great. An idiot who calls himself a scientific football guy would not understand and clearly doesn't with his take on Jay. He's a numbers guy. Football is a team sport and is determined by clearly more than just numbers.

Last edited by bpc; 07-13-2009 at 02:27 PM..
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:23 PM   #23
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Yeah, I'm sure KC Joyner is really hurt about Cutler leaving the Broncos.

The only people who are acting like jilted lovers are people like you who swoop in and defend a guy not on our team, spew hatred at the coach for creating your "divorce" and then proclaim the season a failure before a down has been played.

LEAVE CUTLER ALONEE!!!!!

He has a point though. People's views about Cutler's abilities as a player around here have completely changed since he was traded, something that doesn't affect his skill. This is plain to see, and jilted ex-lover syndrome is rampant around here.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:24 PM   #24
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weather one wishes jay well in the future or not (I for one hope a tiger eats his face off) I think any talk about him is vital for the next year when one considers our 1st round draft pick is directly tied to how he plays
while I agree with you about said Tiger eating the aforementioned face off

I cannot agree with this

I don't want to talk about a player that left us for greener pastures, he is a Bear and I like the Broncos

I don't care if he takes them to the super bowl, it has nothing to do with the team dynamic here right now
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:26 PM   #25
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Yeah, I'm sure KC Joyner is really hurt about Cutler leaving the Broncos.

The only people who are acting like jilted lovers are people like you who swoop in and defend a guy not on our team, spew hatred at the coach for creating your "divorce" and then proclaim the season a failure before a down has been played.

LEAVE CUTLER ALONEE!!!!!

This season could be failure. I hope it's not. I hope i'm wrong. There's a definite argument you could make for the case though. In the end, I want to win. While I don't agree with the way McDaniels came in, i'm not about to doubt that he doesn't know a lick of football or how to win. I'm a little concerned about lack of experience as a head coach but his offenses have proven themselves over the last couple years. I appreciate his fire and intensity. There are some principalities to football which he said he is intent on bringing in which I definitely agree with.

As for you, you have an extremely limited amount of knowledge and what you do have in that regard isn't able to consider all spectrums of this argument because of your bias'ness which now seems to be proving how Cutler sucks and Mike Shanahan was garbage. It would take an idiot to state that assessment and then try to back it up for days on end.

Why don't you educate the crowd once again why Jarvis Moss is going to be a pro bowl 4-3 DE. Thanks.

Last edited by bpc; 07-13-2009 at 02:31 PM..
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