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Old 07-02-2009, 04:37 PM   #1
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Default Jay Cutler vs Kyle Orton 2009

I've wondered what Cutler's passing rating would have been had he not had to endure playing behind a patched up injury riddled inconsistent running attack where all 7 RB's suffered season ending injuries. Cutler found himself in countless 3rd and short and 3rd in long b/c there was no consistency with the running game. Opposing defenses new Cutler had no consistent running attack to speak of as well and they adjusted accordingly; and forced Cutler into making bad decisions and ill-advised passes.

We can all agree that Cutler is superior to Orton in every meaningful-measurable quarterbacking skill. Include, but are not limited to, arm strength, accuracy, mobility, touch, field vision and pocket awareness. If you had to deconstruct the position and examine all the necessary traits you're looking for in a QB, you'd have a tough time arguing that Orton is comparable to Cutler, anywhere.

Now that Orton has been traded to Denver and has more talent to play with on the Broncos, so shouldn't Kyle's stats improve dramatically in 2009?

If Kyle can stay sober, I'd say Orton must pass for btwn 3,700 to 3,900 yards, and 25-28 tds, and at least an 85%-90% passing rating or he has under performed and will retain his "Journeyman" status as a QB in the NFL. As the Bear's starting Qb last year, on a team w/o talent his passing stats were 2972 yds, 18 tds, & under 75% pass rating! He's finally in a situation to bloosom......he can't fail, you only get so many chances in the NFL. Also

Orton can't post the same stats he had while playing as a starter in Chicago here in Denver b/c now he's surrounded by talent and supposedly is playing for an "Offensive Genius"!

Cutler on the othe hand will Matt Forte's receiving skills, Forte had 63 catches last year while Greg Olsen and Desmond Clark combined for 95 receptions. Forte's running skills will also require defenses to play the Bears honestly and cheat. Lastly, when Devin Hester possesses the football, he's among the most dangerous men in the NFL. Yes I know his receiving skills are questionable and inconsistent but, he'll finally have a chance to work with an elite passer. Cutler will benefit playing behind Chicago's massively upgraded
O-line as well.
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:03 PM   #2
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You don't have to be a genius to understand that Cutler is clearly a superior talent. But fortunately for Broncos fans there are other factors to consider.

First, Denver got not only Orton but two first round picks and a third round pick for Cutler.

Second, Orton will be playing is a system in Denver that better matches his abilities.

Third, Orton will be playing with better overall offensive talent surrounding him in Denver.

Fourth, Cutler will be playing in a system in Chicago that may not be the best match for his abilities.

Fifth, Cutler won't have as good of offensive talent around him in Chicago.

Sixth, on the negative side for Denver, the Bears have the better defense.

Conclusions: Orton will probably be considerably better than last year, depending some on how you measure "better". Cutler will probably be at least marginally worse than last year, again depending on the measurement.
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:04 PM   #3
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The hilarious part is that this thread would've LITERALLY gone to the Butt before Cutler-gate. It would've been thought beneath even Bob.
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
You don't have to be a genius to understand that Cutler is clearly a superior talent. But fortunately for Broncos fans there are other factors to consider.

First, Denver got not only Orton but two first round picks and a third round pick for Cutler.

Second, Orton will be playing is a system in Denver that better matches his abilities.

Third, Orton will be playing with better overall offensive talent surrounding him in Denver.

Fourth, Cutler will be playing in a system in Chicago that may not be the best match for his abilities.

Fifth, Cutler won't have as good of offensive talent around him in Chicago.

Sixth, on the negative side for Denver, the Bears have the better defense.

Conclusions: Orton will probably be considerably better than last year, depending some on how you measure "better". Cutler will probably be at least marginally worse than last year, again depending on the measurement.
What do you guess-to-mate Orton stats numbers will be for 2009 given all the attributes that favor Orton in McD's system?
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:41 PM   #5
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Cutler will probably be at least marginally worse than last year, again depending on the measurement.
I expect Cutler to be somewhat better or the same (which be an improvement with the talent he has there). The reason is that its almost payday for him. Plus he will want to prove just how much he was worth (trade wise). Plus he has a decent running back which as stated earlier will take some pressure off of him.

I'm really not looking forward to watching Orton play in a bronco uni... all i gotta say is run run and run some more.
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:49 PM   #6
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I expect Cutler to be somewhat better or the same.
He'll probably win more games but his numbers will be lower. Chi will throw the ball less assuming they play from behind less than Den did. Fewer pass attempts, fewer yards, fewer TD's, but also fewer INT's. Rating will probably be higher.
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:54 PM   #7
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I've wondered what Cutler's passing rating would have been had he not had to endure playing behind a patched up injury riddled inconsistent running attack where all 7 RB's suffered season ending injuries. Cutler found himself in countless 3rd and short and 3rd in long b/c there was no consistency with the running game. Opposing defenses new Cutler had no consistent running attack to speak of as well and they adjusted accordingly; and forced Cutler into making bad decisions and ill-advised passes.
You're right that it probably ultimately hurt his passer rating, but it greatly benefited his touchdowns and yardage. He got to chuck the ball all over the field at will, which is what he really wanted to do.

Quote:
We can all agree that Cutler is superior to Orton in every meaningful-measurable quarterbacking skill. Include, but are not limited to, arm strength, accuracy, mobility, touch, field vision and pocket awareness. If you had to deconstruct the position and examine all the necessary traits you're looking for in a QB, you'd have a tough time arguing that Orton is comparable to Cutler, anywhere.
Completely agree. Cutler has far more skills than Orton. I like Orton, but there is no doubt that Cutler is a way better talent. None. Nada. Zilch.

Quote:
Now that Orton has been traded to Denver and has more talent to play with on the Broncos, so shouldn't Kyle's stats improve dramatically in 2009?

If Kyle can stay sober, I'd say Orton must pass for btwn 3,700 to 3,900 yards, and 25-28 tds, and at least an 85%-90% passing rating or he has under performed and will retain his "Journeyman" status as a QB in the NFL. As the Bear's starting Qb last year, on a team w/o talent his passing stats were 2972 yds, 18 tds, & under 75% pass rating! He's finally in a situation to bloosom......he can't fail, you only get so many chances in the NFL. Also Orton can't post the same stats he had while playing as a starter in Chicago here in Denver b/c now he's surrounded by talent and supposedly is playing for an "Offensive Genius"!
eh - it depends. I think your touchdown numbers are a little high. New systems take time to implement, and if the Broncos have tremendous success running the ball, Orton may not rack up the stats. I do agree, though, that by the last 1/2 of the season, Orton needs to be looking better than he did in Chicago. Otherwise, I agree... Nothing more than a journeyman.

I'm hopeful, though. I think a good barometer is what Cassel did last year:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=8644

In my opinion, Orton needs to (at a minimum) equal those types of stats, and really should better them.

Quote:
Cutler on the othe hand will Matt Forte's receiving skills, Forte had 63 catches last year while Greg Olsen and Desmond Clark combined for 95 receptions. Forte's running skills will also require defenses to play the Bears honestly and cheat. Lastly, when Devin Hester possesses the football, he's among the most dangerous men in the NFL. Yes I know his receiving skills are questionable and inconsistent but, he'll finally have a chance to work with an elite passer. Cutler will benefit playing behind Chicago's massively upgraded
O-line as well.
Well - this cuts both ways. Let's set some boundaries for calling Jay "elite", as many are so willing to already do. I say he needs to lead the Bears to a 13-3 record. He needs to put up similar or better numbers to last year. His yardage may go down, but he needs to have a similar number of touchdowns, less interceptions, a higher QB rating, and more importantly, lead the Bears to a #1 or #2 seed in the NFC. Anything less, and he is officially not an elite QB. With that defense and running game, the Bears have to be Super Bowl contenders.
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:54 PM   #8
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He'll probably win more games but his numbers will be lower. Chi will throw the ball less assuming they play from behind less than Den did. Fewer pass attempts, fewer yards, fewer TD's, but also fewer INT's. Rating will probably be higher.
I agree with you on everything except the tds. I imagine they will want to play with their new toy near the endzone.
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:05 PM   #9
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Cutler will benefit playing behind Chicago's massively upgraded O-line as well.
I'm not sure the upgrade even approaches "massive". And regardless that line is inferior to Denver's. Jay won't be the least sacked QB in the league this year, that much I'll guarantee you.
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:07 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by rastaman View Post
I've wondered what Cutler's passing rating would have been had he not had to endure playing behind a patched up injury riddled inconsistent running attack where all 7 RB's suffered season ending injuries. Cutler found himself in countless 3rd and short and 3rd in long b/c there was no consistency with the running game. Opposing defenses new Cutler had no consistent running attack to speak of as well and they adjusted accordingly; and forced Cutler into making bad decisions and ill-advised passes.

We can all agree that Cutler is superior to Orton in every meaningful-measurable quarterbacking skill. Include, but are not limited to, arm strength, accuracy, mobility, touch, field vision and pocket awareness. If you had to deconstruct the position and examine all the necessary traits you're looking for in a QB, you'd have a tough time arguing that Orton is comparable to Cutler, anywhere.

Now that Orton has been traded to Denver and has more talent to play with on the Broncos, so shouldn't Kyle's stats improve dramatically in 2009?

If Kyle can stay sober, I'd say Orton must pass for btwn 3,700 to 3,900 yards, and 25-28 tds, and at least an 85%-90% passing rating or he has under performed and will retain his "Journeyman" status as a QB in the NFL. As the Bear's starting Qb last year, on a team w/o talent his passing stats were 2972 yds, 18 tds, & under 75% pass rating! He's finally in a situation to bloosom......he can't fail, you only get so many chances in the NFL. Also

Orton can't post the same stats he had while playing as a starter in Chicago here in Denver b/c now he's surrounded by talent and supposedly is playing for an "Offensive Genius"!

Cutler on the othe hand will Matt Forte's receiving skills, Forte had 63 catches last year while Greg Olsen and Desmond Clark combined for 95 receptions. Forte's running skills will also require defenses to play the Bears honestly and cheat. Lastly, when Devin Hester possesses the football, he's among the most dangerous men in the NFL. Yes I know his receiving skills are questionable and inconsistent but, he'll finally have a chance to work with an elite passer. Cutler will benefit playing behind Chicago's massively upgraded
O-line as well.
Does it really matter? I mean Cutler's WRs in Chicago are mediocre at best. If Chicago goes 11-5, 12-4 I don't think they'll give a **** what Cutler's stats were.
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:07 PM   #11
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i wonder if this post could be more biased towards cutler in any possible way. youre such a ****ing hater, its crazy. why set yourself up to eat crow if this team has 10 wins? call the ****ing whaaaaambulance for rasta-future-bears-fan-man
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:09 PM   #12
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Cutler will have more yards, more TD's and more INT's.

Orton will have a better completion percentage (mostly due to the system, in fairness) and a better TD/INT ratio.

I say Cutler to have 23 TD's - 16 INT's - 3,900 yards.

Orton to have 19 TD's - 12 INT's - 3,100 yards.
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:22 PM   #13
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Cutler will have more yards, more TD's and more INT's.

I say Cutler to have 23 TD's - 16 INT's - 3,900 yards.
You said more yards but predicted less (3,900 vs. 4,526). You said more TD's but predicted less (23 vs. 25). You said more INT's but predicted less 16 vs. 18).
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:24 PM   #14
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You said more yards but predicted less (3,900 vs. 4,526). You said more TD's but predicted less (23 vs. 25). You said more INT's but predicted less 16 vs. 18).
I think he is comparing that to what Orton will get
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:27 PM   #15
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You said more yards but predicted less (3,900 vs. 4,526). You said more TD's but predicted less (23 vs. 25). You said more INT's but predicted less 16 vs. 18).
Read the thread title. Learn concept of thread. Re-approach his post.

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Old 07-02-2009, 07:31 PM   #16
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I think he is comparing that to what Orton will get
I think you're right...
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:35 PM   #17
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Read the thread title. Learn concept of thread. Re-approach his post.
Yes, you're right, the thread title does suggest a comparison between their respective projected/expected performances/stats. However, the OP itself does not necessarily. He talks about Orton's stats improving and hints that Cutler is in a better situation implying that his should also improve, but he's less explicit about Cutler than Orton.
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:36 PM   #18
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Seriously. Why bother with this thread?

We're talking about KYLE ****ING ORTON here. KYLE ****ING ORTON. Has that sunk in to any of you yet?

KYLE ****ING ORTON.

Orton will be lucky to post numbers as good as Matt Cassel's. Try to be realistic.
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:37 PM   #19
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Yes, you're right, the thread title does suggest a comparison between their respective projected/expected performances/stats. However, the OP itself does not necessarily. He talks about Orton's stats improving and hints that Cutler is in a better situation implying that his should also improve, but he's less explicit about Cutler than Orton.
It's okay. Coming up for a game this season?
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:43 PM   #20
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Yea, Cutler had it rough...

-One of the best lines in football
-Arguably THE best LT in football
-One of the best offensive play-callers in football
-One of the best receiving corps in football

Poor guy. If he only had the silver-platter situation QBs like Orton have been privy to.

If this dork was a "franchise" player, we wouldn't be making excuses for his ass. Elway didn't need excuses. THAT is what a franchise QB does with marginal talent around him... not crap down his leg against a mediocre team, at home, with the playoffs on the line.

Cutler's a talented QB, physically... but let's get real about all of the obstacles he had to overcome.
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:02 PM   #21
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Yea, Cutler had it rough...

-One of the best lines in football
-Arguably THE best LT in football
-One of the best offensive play-callers in football
-One of the best receiving corps in football

Poor guy. If he only had the silver-platter situation QBs like Orton have been privy to.

If this dork was a "franchise" player, we wouldn't be making excuses for his ass. Elway didn't need excuses. THAT is what a franchise QB does with marginal talent around him... not crap down his leg against a mediocre team, at home, with the playoffs on the line.

Cutler's a talented QB, physically... but let's get real about all of the obstacles he had to overcome.
Oh well, your "Boy" Orton shouldn't have any problems nor excuses in 2009......right! B/c he ain't in Chicago anymore. This should be Orton's coming out party.

Suddenly Kyle finds himself with:
-One of the best lines in football
-Arguably THE best LT in football
-One of the best offensive play-callers in football
-One of the best receiving corps in football
-Top 5 RB in the draft

Orton should be able to pass for over 3600 yds, 25-30 TD's, and pct, 85-100%

Remember Pops......no more excuses for Orton in 2009?
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:09 PM   #22
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Orton will be lucky to post numbers as good as Matt Cassel's. Try to be realistic.
Please name me a single player currently on offense for the Chiefs who would start in Denver this season, or New England last season?

The only one could possibly be Bowe in Denver as the 2nd WR, and not a single player on the Chiefs starts on offense in New England.

Cassel is going to be hard-pressed to match Orton's numbers this year, not the other way around.

Try again Boba Fett.
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:11 PM   #23
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Oh well, your "Boy" Orton
Who ever said Orton was "my boy?"

Did I ever say that? In fact, go back a bit... and I thought Simms had every chance to win the job. Turns out, Orton's experience in the system probably made him a better choice.

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Suddenly Kyle finds himself with:
-One of the best lines in football
-Arguably THE best LT in football
-One of the best offensive play-callers in football
-One of the best receiving corps in football
-Top 5 RB in the draft

Orton should be able to pass for over 3600 yds, 25-30 TD's, and pct, 85-100%
Orton will indeed have those things.

He'll also be playing with an offense learning a new system, and he'll be building chemistry with his receivers.

"Excuses?"

Why would anyone need excuses for Orton. He hasn't thrown a pass yet. At the end of the season, we can recount his work in the system, and decide what we've got.

As for your silly premise built on silly stats, maybe you should stick with Madden. Cutler's fancy stats got him (us) jack ****. Maybe it was because he was almost last in the league at taking care of the ball? I guess that's O.K. since he had good fantasy football yardage numbers, huh?

Who the **** cares what Orton's yardage stats are? Just take care of the ball, lead TD drives, don't turn it over and play within the system.

Beyond that, this whole Orton v. Cutler thing is just idiotic. You're comparing a system QB to a highly talented guy... who may or may not have winning intangibles. They'll be asked to do very different things. Comparing them is just silly.

A better question might be why you're more concerned about obsessing with QB yardage stats than "your" team winning.
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:12 PM   #24
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Please name me a single player currently on offense for the Chiefs who would start in Denver this season, or New England last season?

The only one could possibly be Bowe in Denver as the 2nd WR, and not a single player on the Chiefs starts on offense in New England.

Cassel is going to be hard-pressed to match Orton's numbers this year, not the other way around.

Try again Boba Fett.
I'd be hard pressed to say Bowe wouldn't be the number 1 here even if BM was here...it would be a competition 2 be sure. Bad argument.
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:14 PM   #25
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Cutler on the othe hand will Matt Forte's receiving skills, Forte had 63 catches last year while Greg Olsen and Desmond Clark combined for 95 receptions. Forte's running skills will also require defenses to play the Bears honestly and cheat. Lastly, when Devin Hester possesses the football, he's among the most dangerous men in the NFL. Yes I know his receiving skills are questionable and inconsistent but, he'll finally have a chance to work with an elite passer. Cutler will benefit playing behind Chicago's massively upgraded
O-line as well.
Good lord dude, that's just embarrassing to read. Why don't you find yourself a nice Bears forum and get a good circle-jerk going over there.
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