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Old 05-31-2009, 09:39 PM   #151
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I don't really feel it matters who had the gun or had a gun. There was a gun in the equation. The employee did not know if the dead suspect had a gun or didn't. If I were in his shoes I would have felt it to be safer than sorry.
Except that he DID know. It's blatantly obvious when you watch that video that he had absolute confidence that the guy was no threat whatsoever. He boldly walks right past him and doesn't so much as glance down. Then he turns his back on him. Question...if you had the slightest inkling that an armed gunman (it's been shown now he had no gun BTW) was conscious and about to go for a gun, would you turn your back on him for a full 15 seconds and totally ignore him? Of course you wouldn't. Only an absolute fool would do that, and certainly no experienced combat vet, yet this guy did exactly that, and then he returned and methodically walked over there, not hiding behind a counter to avoid getting shot, but walking right up to him and executing him like a dog. Nobody who watches this video can come to any other conclusion if you have an open mind.

1) He lied to the police at least twice.
2) He lied to the news media
3) He had at least 42 seconds to make a decision.
4) He checked before he left out the door to see if he was a threat or not.
5) He walked right past him and then turned his back on him.
6) He pumped 5 shots into an unconscious kid lying on the floor.

He was calm and collected. Nothing he did qualifes as showing that he was in fear of his life, which means that under the law he killed with malilce aforethought and that is first degree murder.

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Old 05-31-2009, 09:55 PM   #152
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The first shot the guy was protecting himself, and hey, the kid had it coming. If you play with fire you get burnt. But the other shots, when the kid wasn't even dead, I don't see how anybody can defend that. The guy has every right to defend himself, which he did with the first shot. But what was the need for the other shots? He wanted to finish the kid off, which is illegal!!! Dude is going to jail.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:43 PM   #153
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How anyone can advocate executing someone laying on the ground who is already shot in the head and unconscious becuase they tried to rob the store you're working in is beyond my comprehension.
That's the part I don't get. I'm with anybody that's cheering the guy on for the first shot, because he was defending himself. But the other shots, you just can't do that. I don't see why anybody would defend that.
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:13 AM   #154
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All I can say is that kid would be alive today had he just decided not to be a criminal. He ultimately has no one else to blame but himself.
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:19 AM   #155
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Not only did people state the shots were reasonable...they made a point of suggesting things like the "societal garbage" being removed from the earth was cause for celebration and using terms like "hood rat" in discussing why he got his just deserts and would have grown up to kill other people so his murder was a heroic act.

Did you even read this thread?
'Hood rat' refers to a person who partakes in the urban gansta lifestyle-and it is not dependent upon a person's skin color--(Eminem wannabe's are a good example)and I made that comment in relation to that garbage link you provided with his mother telling the world that he was a 'good boy' who simply had a Nike fetish.........and apparently a penchant for taking things that were not his. If the attempted robber were from a trailer park in West VA I would have used 'trailer trash' instead of 'hood rat'.

EDIT: and I did NOT state that the last 5 shots were reasonable.......

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Old 06-01-2009, 06:38 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Except that he DID know. It's blatantly obvious when you watch that video that he had absolute confidence that the guy was no threat whatsoever. He boldly walks right past him and doesn't so much as glance down. Then he turns his back on him. Question...if you had the slightest inkling that an armed gunman (it's been shown now he had no gun BTW) was conscious and about to go for a gun, would you turn your back on him for a full 15 seconds and totally ignore him? Of course you wouldn't. Only an absolute fool would do that, and certainly no experienced combat vet, yet this guy did exactly that, and then he returned and methodically walked over there, not hiding behind a counter to avoid getting shot, but walking right up to him and executing him like a dog. Nobody who watches this video can come to any other conclusion if you have an open mind.

1) He lied to the police at least twice.
2) He lied to the news media
3) He had at least 42 seconds to make a decision.
4) He checked before he left out the door to see if he was a threat or not.
5) He walked right past him and then turned his back on him.
6) He pumped 5 shots into an unconscious kid lying on the floor.

He was calm and collected. Nothing he did qualifes as showing that he was in fear of his life, which means that under the law he killed with malilce aforethought and that is first degree murder.

Fear for your life isn't on your face. It's in your head. Now I haven't read the guys statement or anything like that. If I were on the jury, there is no way I would convict him.
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:59 AM   #157
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All I can say is that kid would be alive today had he just decided not to be a criminal. He ultimately has no one else to blame but himself.
Funny thing though, he is a kid, he can't legally make decisions for himself. He can't make the decision to have sex, to vote, to drink, to own a house or get married.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:01 AM   #158
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All I can say is that kid would be alive today had he just decided not to be a criminal. He ultimately has no one else to blame but himself.
You are 100% correct on that one. But that doesn't get the guy off for shooting him five more times. It does not justify what he did. Dude is going to jail.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:10 AM   #159
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Funny thing though, he is a kid, he can't legally make decisions for himself. He can't make the decision to have sex, to vote, to drink, to own a house or get married.
But he can make the decision to do his homework, stay away from robbing Pharmacies, give respect to his teachers, parents & other adults........he has plenty of decisions and choices to make in his life that don't include drinking, voting and marriage.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:14 AM   #160
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Except that he DID know. It's blatantly obvious when you watch that video that he had absolute confidence that the guy was no threat whatsoever. He boldly walks right past him and doesn't so much as glance down. Then he turns his back on him. Question...if you had the slightest inkling that an armed gunman (it's been shown now he had no gun BTW) was conscious and about to go for a gun, would you turn your back on him for a full 15 seconds and totally ignore him? Of course you wouldn't. Only an absolute fool would do that, and certainly no experienced combat vet, yet this guy did exactly that, and then he returned and methodically walked over there, not hiding behind a counter to avoid getting shot, but walking right up to him and executing him like a dog. Nobody who watches this video can come to any other conclusion if you have an open mind.

1) He lied to the police at least twice.
2) He lied to the news media
3) He had at least 42 seconds to make a decision.
4) He checked before he left out the door to see if he was a threat or not.
5) He walked right past him and then turned his back on him.
6) He pumped 5 shots into an unconscious kid lying on the floor.

He was calm and collected. Nothing he did qualifes as showing that he was in fear of his life, which means that under the law he killed with malilce aforethought and that is first degree murder.
For once, I have to say I agree with footsteps. That was cold blooded murder.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:19 AM   #161
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You are 100% correct on that one. But that doesn't get the guy off for shooting him five more times. It does not justify what he did. Dude is going to jail.
Maybe...maybe not. That's for other people to decide. I bet he gets off. It would be morally wrong to put that guy in jail, IMO.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:21 AM   #162
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in my opinion these "kids" grabbed guns and made the decision to threaten someone's life over a robbery...once they picked up those guns they made the statement that they were willing to kill anyone who got in their way and opened themselves up to retaliation

i think everyone agrees that the first two shots were fine...I'm having trouble understanding how he went back and decided to fire five more shots...honestly, i dont know whether i agree with that or not

however, if someone broke into my house and threatened my family with guns and i managed to pop off a few shots, im killing whoever is wounded because they basically said, "i dont care about your life or your family's lives"...perhaps this guy was protecting his livelihood and thought about it like his family...i dont know

he should do a 2-4 year bid in my opinion...jail is meant to keep dangerous people off the street...i dont think this guy is dangerous
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:28 AM   #163
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Funny thing though, he is a kid, he can't legally make decisions for himself. He can't make the decision to have sex, to vote, to drink, to own a house or get married.
That criminal knew he was doing something wrong.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:45 AM   #164
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Fear for your life isn't on your face. It's in your head. Now I haven't read the guys statement or anything like that. If I were on the jury, there is no way I would convict him.
In other words you decided without any facts, or worse yet, in the fact of the known facts and contrary to them. Got it.

Let me ask you a question; since 42 seconds apparently isn't enough in your mind for a person to make a decision not to do an execution style murder on somebody lying helpless on the floor, how much time do you thionk is allowable for this Gulf War combat vet to recover from his terror? Five minutes? How about 3 hours? Suppose he left him there over night before killing him? Would that constitute murder?

Is there any scenario whatsoever where you would vote this as murder if you were on the jury? Or does he just get a free pass to do whatever he wants as judge/jury and executioner because he committed a crime?
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:48 AM   #165
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This guy probably would've gotten off if he just said to officers initially that he "feared for his life and family's life in the future, after the kid recovered and got out of jail.....and that's why I finished him off." Instead, he chose to blatantly lie to the officers. Never a good move.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:51 AM   #166
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in my opinion these "kids" grabbed guns and made the decision to threaten someone's life over a robbery...once they picked up those guns they made the statement that they were willing to kill anyone who got in their way and opened themselves up to retaliation.
Actually the kid he murdered had no gun.
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i think everyone agrees that the first two shots were fine...I'm having trouble understanding how he went back and decided to fire five more shots...honestly, i dont know whether i agree with that or not.
I see you're not paying attention. The first ONE shot was fine. The next five are defined under Oklahoma law as murder...so you're "trouble" with whether you agree or not is a question of whether murder is hunky dory because he's a kid committing a crime. If so...you advocate doing away with the judicial process entirely.
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however, if someone broke into my house and threatened my family with guns and i managed to pop off a few shots, im killing whoever is wounded because they basically said, "i dont care about your life or your family's lives"...perhaps this guy was protecting his livelihood and thought about it like his family...i dont know.
He protected himself with the first shot...42 seconds before he returned to commit murder.
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he should do a 2-4 year bid in my opinion...jail is meant to keep dangerous people off the street...i dont think this guy is dangerous
Anyone that can cooly, calmly and methodically commit an execution style murder, lie to police about what happened and pretend that he wasn't trying to kill anyone...yeah, they are dangerous.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:51 AM   #167
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In other words you decided without any facts, or worse yet, in the fact of the known facts and contrary to them. Got it.

Let me ask you a question; since 42 seconds apparently isn't enough in your mind for a person to make a decision not to do an execution style murder on somebody lying helpless on the floor, how much time do you thionk is allowable for this Gulf War combat vet to recover from his terror? Five minutes? How about 3 hours? Suppose he left him there over night before killing him? Would that constitute murder?

Is there any scenario whatsoever where you would vote this as murder if you were on the jury? Or does he just get a free pass to do whatever he wants as judge/jury and executioner because he committed a crime?
You've made your opinion pretty well known on the matter...but there is just another way people look at this. The ONLY thing that throws me off about this is the 42 seconds. I think that is a long time to take someone's life into account and then end it.

At the same time, if you are picking up a gun and pointing it in someones face you are taking that chance. The kid, unfortunately, got exactly what he deserved, just in a cruel manner.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:55 AM   #168
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This guy probably would've gotten off if he just said to officers initially that he "feared for his life and family's life in the future, after the kid recovered and got out of jail.....and that's why I finished him off." Instead, he chose to blatantly lie to the officers. Never a good move.
Fear of future retalilation will not create a viable case for self defense. You have to be in imminent danger...not considering what might happen in the future...so no, assuming a fair and impartial jury...that argument would not win him any points with the DA, nor hopefully with the jury.

Then again he may get off scott free just because a bunch of idiots consider him a hero.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:56 AM   #169
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In other words you decided without any facts, or worse yet, in the fact of the known facts and contrary to them. Got it.

Let me ask you a question; since 42 seconds apparently isn't enough in your mind for a person to make a decision not to do an execution style murder on somebody lying helpless on the floor, how much time do you thionk is allowable for this Gulf War combat vet to recover from his terror? Five minutes? How about 3 hours? Suppose he left him there over night before killing him? Would that constitute murder?

Is there any scenario whatsoever where you would vote this as murder if you were on the jury? Or does he just get a free pass to do whatever he wants as judge/jury and executioner because he committed a crime?

42 seconds in a situation like that is not a long time. In fact the Adrenaline pumping through his system might take an 30 minutes to an hour to release. Maybe even longer. The Facts? The facts are all right there in the video. Two kids with a gun walked into a store with intention of robbing the place and killing anyone that got in their way. Why else would they bring a gun?

IMO once they walked in that store and leveled a gun at someone's head to rob the place, they lost all and any rights. They are not victims. The robbers altered the state of mine of the shop keeper. They took away his right to feel safe. They took away his ability to be peaceful. Not the other way around.

It's hard to say after some hours or a day what would constitute murder. The mind is a crazy place. I think after some number of hours you could argue malice beyond what's in the mind's eye. If the shooter is a combat vet, that could alter his state of mind to another level. As a person who has probably been subjected to combat, I can even understand his actions even more.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:57 AM   #170
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You've made your opinion pretty well known on the matter...but there is just another way people look at this. The ONLY thing that throws me off about this is the 42 seconds. I think that is a long time to take someone's life into account and then end it.

At the same time, if you are picking up a gun and pointing it in someones face you are taking that chance. The kid, unfortunately, got exactly what he deserved, just in a cruel manner.
So you advocate the death penalty for armed robbery when no shot was fired? And you advocate it for first time offenders, minors under 18, and you advocate it without benefit of a trial by jury of your peers.

Nice.
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:00 AM   #171
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So you advocate the death penalty for armed robbery when no shot was fired? And you advocate it for first time offenders, minors under 18, and you advocate it without benefit of a trial by jury of your peers.

Nice.
yea I do....and since I'm allowed to have an opinion, I don't really see a problem with it.

I said before that this guy should do some time...but not 1st degree murder time

what do you feed your high horse by the way? just interested
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:17 AM   #172
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Burglary is a high risk profession. The pharmacist had been robbed before. Unfortunately, in this wonderful economy, we WILL see more of these situations happening. Our prisons are already full and do not FIX the problem, so while I agree that the last 5 shots were not called for or excessive, I can't say I blame the guy. I guarantee that robbers will think twice about robbing his store.
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:18 AM   #173
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42 seconds in a situation like that is not a long time. In fact the Adrenaline pumping through his system might take an 30 minutes to an hour to release. Maybe even longer.
So in other words if he'd gone in "even longer" than an hour later...and pumped 5 shots into him, he's not guilty of a crime. And his adrenal glands are the determining factor. Question: I still get mad as hell towards my wife's ex who abused her for years...sometimes I can feel an adreneline rush hearing his voice on the phone as he's calling to come pick up his daughter for visitiation. If I decide one day to pull out my .45 automag and make a little trip up the road 90 miles and cap his ass, should I get a free pass on that one? My adreneline is rushing...I've had to physically knock this piece of **** on the ground once because he presented a threat. Tell me...is this a lifetime pass I get based on his past behavior?
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The Facts? The facts are all right there in the video. Two kids with a gun walked into a store with intention of robbing the place and killing anyone that got in their way. Why else would they bring a gun?
The only killing was done by the pharmacist; the lone kid with a gun never fired a shot.
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IMO once they walked in that store and leveled a gun at someone's head to rob the place, they lost all and any rights. They are not victims. The robbers altered the state of mine of the shop keeper. They took away his right to feel safe. They took away his ability to be peaceful. Not the other way around.
So why do the cops read them "their rights"? Or are you advocating eliminating the right to a fair trial and suggesting justice by random public vigilantes is what you prefer? Is that what you prefer?
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It's hard to say after some hours or a day what would constitute murder.
And people wonder why I see racism on this board.
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The mind is a crazy place. I think after some number of hours you could argue malice beyond what's in the mind's eye. If the shooter is a combat vet, that could alter his state of mind to another level. As a person who has probably been subjected to combat, I can even understand his actions even more.
Got it. Ex combat vets have a lifetime pass to murder people in cold blood any time they feel threatened. Good call.
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:20 AM   #174
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yea I do....and since I'm allowed to have an opinion, I don't really see a problem with it.
Which is truly scary.
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what do you feed your high horse by the way? just interested
I'm allowed to have an opinion...remember?
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:26 AM   #175
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Which is truly scary.

I'm allowed to have an opinion...remember?

It's truly scary that someone's opinion is different than yours?

I have no problem with you stating your views...its actually one of the reasons I click on these topics to see what people have to say. However, your tone seems to be of the nature that it is an "all or nothing" type debate. You either agree with this guy and want him to go free or you want him locked up for murder.

I see a gray area in this matter because these were NOT innocent people he killed and they instigated the situation. Its a slippery slope, as you have pointed out but driving 90 miles to shoot your wife's ex is different that her ex coming to your house with a gun.

Once you brandish a weapon...OR ASSOCIATE yourself with someone who is flashing a gun at someone, you run the risk of being injured or killed. And thats what happened.

That being said, I agree that at a certain point it becomes cold blooded murder. I just dont think it was in this instance. I think he should do time, but not for 1st degree murder.
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