The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-02-2009, 12:39 PM   #251
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 53,975

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan7 View Post
Why would you walk outside with 2 females not knowing how many of the criminals were outside or where they were? You could very well be walking right into more problems.The 3 of them were safer inside the store as they could lock the door which creates a slight barrier to any re-intrusions. --given that he elminated the risk of the criminal on the floor.
Well, he already chased the first kid out the door with an empty gun (that was the fourteen year old who got away, but has since been picked up and also charged with murder), so I suppose he already knew what the scene was outside. He walked past the sixteen year old on the ground twice with his back turned, so it doesn't seem likely that he felt threatened by him. If he thought the kid might be armed, you'd think he would have been highly cautious about approaching him again, but he's not at all, according to the video. He just walks right up and blasts away. The prosecutor says the evidence shows the kid was hit in the head and was unconscious.

Now, it appears they have arrested two adult males, one of whom was the ex-bf of the dead kid's mother. The two adults coerced the kids into robbing the pharmacy by threatening them.

Last edited by Rohirrim; 06-02-2009 at 12:41 PM..
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 01:01 PM   #252
Beantown Bronco
Athletic Supporter
 
Beantown Bronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mass
Posts: 20,066

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Matt Prater
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider View Post
you cant change the scenario and expect an honest answer ,And Child molesting is a much different crime that raises different emotions and line of thinking then an armed Robbery ...........
But this is my point. Some of the folks in this thread are judging the events based off of what the cashier did after the crime was foiled and the first shot was fired. They are telling us to ignore the prior attempted criminal act, because it doesn't factor into the equation. Here is their argument in a nutshell:

After the first shot to the head, the perp was not a threat to commit any crime or hurt anyone.....therefore the follow-up shots to the chest were murder. The original acts of the perp don't matter in any way.

If these folks are being consistent in their arguments, then it shouldn't matter if the perp was caught in the act of robbery, murder, rape or child molestation. The perp is unarmed, defenseless, and incapable of harming anyone. The "facts of the case" against the cashier don't change.
Beantown Bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 01:25 PM   #253
broncofan7
Ring of Famer
 
broncofan7's Avatar
 
BQ looks ALMOST as good as I do

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: BIG D
Posts: 6,005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
Well, he already chased the first kid out the door with an empty gun (that was the fourteen year old who got away, but has since been picked up and also charged with murder), so I suppose he already knew what the scene was outside. He walked past the sixteen year old on the ground twice with his back turned, so it doesn't seem likely that he felt threatened by him. If he thought the kid might be armed, you'd think he would have been highly cautious about approaching him again, but he's not at all, according to the video. He just walks right up and blasts away. The prosecutor says the evidence shows the kid was hit in the head and was unconscious.

Now, it appears they have arrested two adult males, one of whom was the ex-bf of the dead kid's mother. The two adults coerced the kids into robbing the pharmacy by threatening them.

Wow--Those guys are the REAL criminals IMHO--sad, sad story all the way around.
broncofan7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 01:40 PM   #254
watermock
"Hoodie Jr"
 
watermock's Avatar
 
"Hug me!"

Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Hot Springs, Ouachitah
Posts: 76,813
Default

It's second degree murder once he caps him 5 more times
watermock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 01:50 PM   #255
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 53,975

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan7 View Post
Wow--Those guys are the REAL criminals IMHO--sad, sad story all the way around.
Yep. They've charged those two adults with first degree murder also, as well as other charges. In the dead kid's back-pack (you can see it in the video) he had his basketball shoes.
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 02:03 PM   #256
footstepsfrom#27
helmet to helmet hitter
 
footstepsfrom#27's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 16,143

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Joe Mays
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
If these folks are being consistent in their arguments, then it shouldn't matter if the perp was caught in the act of robbery, murder, rape or child molestation. The perp is unarmed, defenseless, and incapable of harming anyone. The "facts of the case" against the cashier don't change.
Regardless of what happened before, his act meets the legal qualifications for a 1st degree murder charge under Oklahoma law. Whether or not someone might interject personal feelings related to another crime and thus change their view of how they might respond based on that, has nothing at all to do with whether this was murder or not.

Juries are to decide cases based on the rule of law, not their personal feelings, sympathies or lack of such.
footstepsfrom#27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 02:11 PM   #257
Beantown Bronco
Athletic Supporter
 
Beantown Bronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mass
Posts: 20,066

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Matt Prater
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Regardless of what happened before, his act meets the legal qualifications for a 1st degree murder charge under Oklahoma law. Whether or not someone might interject personal feelings related to another crime and thus change their view of how they might respond based on that, has nothing at all to do with whether this was murder or not.

Juries are to decide cases based on the rule of law, not their personal feelings, sympathies or lack of such.
I obviously know all this. Thanks for not answering my question.
Beantown Bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 02:33 PM   #258
footstepsfrom#27
helmet to helmet hitter
 
footstepsfrom#27's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 16,143

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Joe Mays
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
I obviously know all this. Thanks for not answering my question.
I'm not sure you do know it. What question?
footstepsfrom#27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 02:34 PM   #259
Garcia Bronco
Hokie since 1993
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 46,781

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Tom Jackson
Default

I still wouldn't convict him. It's not his fault those kids decided to rob the place with a firearm.
Garcia Bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 02:57 PM   #260
Beantown Bronco
Athletic Supporter
 
Beantown Bronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mass
Posts: 20,066

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Matt Prater
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
I'm not sure you do know it.
Studied criminal justice and the law and have worked in law firms for 10 years. I think it's safe to say that elementary law issues like these aren't above my pay grade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
What question?
See prior page of this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
I wonder how many of the "he's clearly guilty of murder" people here would even consider convicting this cashier of anything if the situation were a little different. Say, you walked in on this guy molesting your 6 or 7 year old daughter. You shot him in the head, and he was no longer a threat to you or the child, but you still decided to empty the clip in him after waiting 45 seconds.

If you were on that jury, would you convict the man of anything? If you are being consistent, you have to ignore the original crime which resulted in the shooting. All you are doing is evaluating the shooter's behavior after the first shot without context.
Now, keep in mind, I'm not asking "should you convict" but "would you convict"? And is your answer different for the two possible scenarios presented (armed robber vs. pedophile). That is all. I'm not asking for what you should do based on the law in a vacuum. I'm asking, personally, what would you do?
Beantown Bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 03:30 PM   #261
footstepsfrom#27
helmet to helmet hitter
 
footstepsfrom#27's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 16,143

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Joe Mays
Default

[QUOTE=Beantown Bronco;2433603]
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco
I wonder how many of the "he's clearly guilty of murder" people here would even consider convicting this cashier of anything if the situation were a little different. Say, you walked in on this guy molesting your 6 or 7 year old daughter. You shot him in the head, and he was no longer a threat to you or the child, but you still decided to empty the clip in him after waiting 45 seconds.

If you were on that jury, would you convict the man of anything? If you are being consistent, you have to ignore the original crime which resulted in the shooting. All you are doing is evaluating the shooter's behavior after the first shot without context
Quote:
Now, keep in mind, I'm not asking "should you convict" but "would you convict"? And is your answer different for the two possible scenarios presented (armed robber vs. pedophile). That is all. I'm not asking for what you should do based on the law in a vacuum. I'm asking, personally, what would you do?
I would vote to convict.

I say this having 5 daughters, and having long ago thought through how I personally would react to an event such as that, meaning that while I can tell myself that a cooler head should prevail, I would probably lose control and blow the perp away. I also believe to do so would still make me a murderer worthy of trial for that crime.

Your comparison forces an enormous leap forward based on the use of a hot button emotional issue not validated by the circumstances. In one scenario, every father's worst nightmare comes true and horrible damage is actually done to his daughter that will leave a lifetime scar. In the other, no shot is even fired in the few seconds the events occured and nobody is actually harmed except the kid the pharmacist murdered. I think you're comparing apples to oranges in order to invalidate the view that the murder commited should be excused. Having been robbed with a gun stuck in my face, I would equate my emotions regarding that with far less anger than I would have if someone assaulted one of my girls.

Last edited by footstepsfrom#27; 06-02-2009 at 03:33 PM..
footstepsfrom#27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 09:12 AM   #262
Flex Gunmetal
Icy Fresh
 
Flex Gunmetal's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: COLORADO
Posts: 3,077

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Francis Daytona
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
The dude is a hero if you ask me. The only mistake he made was not to put 5 or 6 in him right off the bat. More people like that = less crime. Crime would be much less prevalent if we quit screwing around and babying felons.

I would love to see the "eye for an eye" justice system brought to America. Sex crimes against children = castration. Kill someone while drinking and driving = death sentence. Theft = lose your hand.

Now, that may be a little harsh and a median could most definitely be found. Take Singapore for example. A kid vandalized a car and 4 lashings from a bamboo rod....which should have been 6 but good old Clinton had it reduced. I'm willing to bet that most of the countries listed below have a very harsh judicial system.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita

Funny....the US is at the top for most crimes per capita...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...e-total-crimes

Crime Statistics > Total crimes (most recent) by country
VIEW DATA: Totals
Definition Source Printable version
Pie Chart Map

Showing latest available data.

United States 18.7%
United Kingdom 10.3%
Germany 10.2%
France 5.9%
Russia 4.6%
Japan 4.5%
South Africa 4.2%
Canada 4%
Italy 3.5%
India 2.8%
Korea, South 2.4%
Mexico 2.4%
Netherlands 2.2%
Poland 2.2%
Argentina 2.1%
Sweden 1.9%
Belgium 1.5%
Spain 1.5%
Chile 0.9%
Thailand 0.9%
It's fortunate you don't post often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
I still wouldn't convict him. It's not his fault those kids decided to rob the place with a firearm.
It is his fault he murdered the kid. Thankfully our justice system is based on one being held accountable for their actions, not others.
Flex Gunmetal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 01:43 PM   #263
Dudeskey
Ring of Famer
 
Dudeskey's Avatar
 
This space for rent

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 4,310
Default BULL****!!!

Jurors reject pharmacist’s self-defense plea; convict him of murder

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...-him-of-murder
Dudeskey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 01:56 PM   #264
epicSocialism4tw
Tebowing the long haul
 
all the way to the title

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: TX, USA
Posts: 36,819

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Champ Bailey
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudeskey View Post
Jurors reject pharmacist’s self-defense plea; convict him of murder

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...-him-of-murder
Wow.

That's extremely sad.

There is no justice in this country anymore. People are just tools used for political gain.
epicSocialism4tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 02:14 PM   #265
DenverBrit
Just hanging out.
 
DenverBrit's Avatar
 
Got a breath mint??

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 12,317

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Team
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudeskey View Post
Jurors reject pharmacist’s self-defense plea; convict him of murder

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...-him-of-murder
Talk about injustice. What really surprises me is that an Oklahoma jury found him guilty.

His problem seems to have been that the robber was unarmed and unconscious but he shot him 5 more times.

But still, manslaughter at worst.
DenverBrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 02:23 PM   #266
DenverBrit
Just hanging out.
 
DenverBrit's Avatar
 
Got a breath mint??

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 12,317

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Team
Default

Ok, the full story does help me understand the verdict. But I'm still surprised they didn't go the manslaughter route.


During the closing arguments, Prater played for jurors again the security camera recordings of the shooting. He stopped it at points, telling jurors the pharmacist turned his back to the downed robber to get a second gun to shoot the robber again.

“It's a human trait. You don't turn your back on something you're afraid of,” Prater said.

Prosecutors told jurors Ersland lied to police about what happened during the shooting, trying to come up with a good story to cover his wrongdoing. They said he underestimated how much homicide detectives would investigate.

They also reminded jurors he had lied about killing people during the first Gulf War. They said his military records show he was at Altus Air Force Base in 1991 and never was in combat.

Prosecutors also reminded jurors of testimony Ersland had faked a gunshot wound in an effort to support his defense. “He lies about everything,” Prater said.

Box conceded that the pharmacist has said some “goofy things” and had facts wrong in his police interview and about his military record. He argued that didn't change what the pharmacist perceived inside the pharmacy.

Jurors were given the option of finding Ersland guilty of first-degree manslaughter instead or of acquitting him completely.


Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-phar...#ixzz1NaelI5In
DenverBrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 02:48 PM   #267
epicSocialism4tw
Tebowing the long haul
 
all the way to the title

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: TX, USA
Posts: 36,819

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Champ Bailey
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBrit View Post
But still, manslaughter at worst.
That's what I thought as well.
epicSocialism4tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 02:55 PM   #268
GreatBronco16
!!!TEAM!!!
 
GreatBronco16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bama Baby
Posts: 6,381

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Defense
Default

Wow, that is sad. Put another run up on the board for the criminals.

I'd be willing to bet that if the boy that was killed was white, he would have gotten a lesser deal or off completly.
GreatBronco16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 03:01 PM   #269
elsid13
Lost In Space
 
elsid13's Avatar
 
Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 19,722
Default

The DA would have appeared to done a good job on selecting the jury for this one. This will go to appeal most likely but I bet he does jail time.
elsid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 03:16 PM   #270
fdf
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
How anyone can advocate executing someone laying on the ground who is already shot in the head and unconscious becuase they tried to rob the store you're working in is beyond my comprehension.
I can understand how someone does that. I isn't lawful. But the kid and his buddy just came in with ski masks and guns. Shots have been fired. One person down. You are angry, scared, and your adrenaline is pumping. People do really stupid things in that type of situation.

But compared to, say, drowning your own kids, I understand what he did. I would have wanted to do the same thing in his situation. Hope I don't if it ever comes to that.
fdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 04:24 PM   #271
That One Guy
Producer of Nonsense
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sun and Beachville
Posts: 14,066

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

I'm surprised there wasn't some sort of mental defense for that. I mean, how can one be expected to be of right mind when you just had guns put in your face?
That One Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 10:45 PM   #272
troya900
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,133
Default

Wow just peachy. What a horrible murder conviction. Yes, pumping the extra bullets was wrong, but life?? Give me a break. Also, watch the video on this link and listen to the last 10 seconds or so. The owner of the business has stated that the dead punk's family is filing a civil lawsuit against the pharmacist store owner, how god d@mn pathetic is that? I'm sure that thug's mommy is gonna make some cash off her low-life scum boys robbery scheme, so I guess the ultimate goal is going to be achieved by the robbers, "they" are going to make off with undeserved cash.


http://www.newson6.com/story/1474264...jerome-ersland

Last edited by troya900; 05-28-2011 at 10:50 PM..
troya900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 11:36 PM   #273
strafen
Karma
 
strafen's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,257

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Elway
Default

Perhaps it could be proven thru an autopsy if the kid was unconscious or not.
I believe in the eyes of the pharmacist he was dead, and his adrenaline took over.
Heck, the guy had a gun pointed at him. How do you want the guy to act?
Good for him. The kid chances of survival would've been very little and perhaps a burden for his family to care for him for the rest of his life.
Unfortunate thing that this happened, but hey, you create your own luck by putting yourself in that situation in the first place...
strafen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2011, 01:18 AM   #274
fdf
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
I was saying earlier a good lawyer will convince prosecution he can make at least one person on the jury believe the kid was dead already. Then prosecution will look at likely jury pool and get the feeling some of these people will pull a jury nullification of the law and acquit.

In the end you would expect to see some sort of plea, with limited jail time. Just my opinion.
This kind of depends on the venue. If the pharmacist is a white guy selling in a black neighborhood and has a venue nearby with a black jury, you have a pretty confident prosecutor, not likely to deal for three reasons (1) favorable jury and (2) lots of political pressure from the community to take it all the way--the guy's elected and (3) If you believe the reporting and the video is all the evidence there is, the DA has a decent case for Murder 2 (heat of passion type murder) and maybe for Murder 1. Black juries are hard on wrong-ethnic outsiders who run businesses in their community. You put all those together and why should the DA offer a plea? It hurts the DA in his next election if he lets the guy plea down to manslaughter. If the jury does not convict, well, the community has spoken. OTOH, if they lock the guy up for life, the DA's a hero in the community.

I'm making some assumptions here--(1) That the crimes occurred in a black neighborhood and that (2) The owner was a businessman from outside the neighborhood.
fdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2011, 01:22 AM   #275
fdf
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
Defense needs to call the medical examiner into question, get other medical examiners to say kid was already dead or would have died. Then the other bullets only pumping them into a dead body which isn't murder.
This is maybe a good defense. But if the kid was alive, even in extremis, when the second set of shots were fired, the shooter certainly hastened the inevitable. But any murder just hastens the inevitable--so that's not really a legal defense. The inevitable here was just a shorter time frame and that is a good emotional defense if the judge allows it.
fdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:23 PM.


Denver Broncos