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Old 05-26-2009, 10:25 AM   #76
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Noone mentioned the chicks ridiculously neon white teeth? Seriously, that ripped me out of the story every time she opened her mouth. They must have awesome robot dentists.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:27 AM   #77
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Without Ahnold in it what's the point?
If this is your beef, go see it.....
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:35 AM   #78
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It's 2018 in this movie. How is the T800 coming out when it's supposed to be new in 2029?
Yep, hopefully the ending is why they were also new in 2029.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:38 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Flex Gunmetal View Post
+1

I would hardly site OM as a credible collection of movie critics.
Salvation was almost as bad as T3. T1 and T2 were great. 3 and 4 will be forgotten.
Plot holes, nonsensical, unrealistic and impossible situations, etc (Spoiler: Why capture reese, not kill him?, How can connor ride a machine bike, why do terminators throw people around instead of killing them?).
If they had a decent script to go with the great action, I would have left a happy camper.
It was a vehicle to keep the franchise alive and make some quick cash (hence the pg-13 rating), but it's unlikely the film will gross the 400 mill it cost.
Spoiler:
Why are they capturing people at all? They never did anything with them, just herded them around like cattle.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:40 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex Gunmetal View Post
+1

I would hardly site OM as a credible collection of movie critics.
Salvation was almost as bad as T3. T1 and T2 were great. 3 and 4 will be forgotten.
Plot holes, nonsensical, unrealistic and impossible situations, etc (Spoiler: Why capture reese, not kill him?, How can connor ride a machine bike, why do terminators throw people around instead of killing them?).
If they had a decent script to go with the great action, I would have left a happy camper.
It was a vehicle to keep the franchise alive and make some quick cash (hence the pg-13 rating), but it's unlikely the film will gross the 400 mill it cost.
It's funny you nit pick the last two T movies. You do realize that the first Terminator movie was laughed at by critics. LAUGHED AT FOR IT'S STUPID STORYLINE AND WHY DOES A ROBOT HAVE A BAD ACCENT??

Ya know, stuff like that.

Just thought you should know the truth whilest ye judge so hard...
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:43 AM   #81
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Yep, hopefully the ending is why they were also new in 2029.
Spoiler:
Do you mean blowing up the factory? If SkyNet is a global network, it should have the design information for it accessible somewhere else, too. It shouldn't forget how to make something for 11 years because a factory got blown up.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:43 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
Spoiler:
Why are they capturing people at all? They never did anything with them, just herded them around like cattle.
Don't you remember the first T movie where Kyle Reese is showing Sarah his bar code tattoo??

Reese says that humans were rounded up for orderly disposal by the machines.

This latest T4 movie is just following the original story line put forth by Reese himself...
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:46 AM   #83
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Spoiler:
Do you mean blowing up the factory? If SkyNet is a global network, it should have the design information for it accessible somewhere else, too. It shouldn't forget how to make something for 11 years because a factory got blown up.
Also, Marcus is much more advanced than Arnold's terminator was, and was apparently made 11 years earlier.

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Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
Don't you remember the first T movie where Kyle Reese is showing Sarah his bar code tattoo??

Reese says that humans were rounded up for orderly disposal by the machines.

This latest T4 movie is just following the original story line put forth by Reese himself...
True, I forgot that.
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:00 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
It's funny you nit pick the last two T movies. You do realize that the first Terminator movie was laughed at by critics. LAUGHED AT FOR IT'S STUPID STORYLINE AND WHY DOES A ROBOT HAVE A BAD ACCENT??

Ya know, stuff like that.

Just thought you should know the truth whilest ye judge so hard...
I do. But they are undeniably classics, I dont think 3 and 4 will be.
Just my opinion.
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:01 AM   #85
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The whole dealio with Marcus is that he was a project started by Skynet back in 2003. Obviously, this is where T4 gets creative with it's time line.

Basically, Marcus is another result of the machines knowing that they are doomed and trying to create a machine that stops the humans from winning the war. They can't kill Connor with the T101 or the T1000 or the Thotty in T3 so they go a different direction. Instead of making a better machine, they make a better human-machine to get to Conner.

In the end, the human part of the equation wins out when Marcus sacrifices himself to save Connor. Even though Marcus accomplished his mission for the machines (he brought the machines Connor) he fails the machines by his very human emotions and his angst and hate for the machines that created him. Marcus wants revenge against the machines and he get's his revenge by helping Connor and Connor saving Reese...
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:08 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
The whole dealio with Marcus is that he was a project started by Skynet back in 2003. Obviously, this is where T4 gets creative with it's time line.

Basically, Marcus is another result of the machines knowing that they are doomed and trying to create a machine that stops the humans from winning the war. They can't kill Connor with the T101 or the T1000 or the Thotty in T3 so they go a different direction. Instead of making a better machine, they make a better human-machine to get to Conner.

In the end, the human part of the equation wins out when Marcus sacrifices himself to save Connor. Even though Marcus accomplished his mission for the machines (he brought the machines Connor) he fails the machines by his very human emotions and his angst and hate for the machines that created him. Marcus wants revenge against the machines and he get's his revenge by helping Connor and Connor saving Reese...
In T1, Kyle talks about how these new terminators are so much deadlier than the previous model because the previous model had rubber skin, and this model looked exactly like a human. That doesn't make sense if they had been able to make machines or human-machines that looked human for 11 years.

EDIT - Not to mention the T800/T101 that shows up 11 years early.

Last edited by MagicHef; 05-26-2009 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:31 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
In T1, Kyle talks about how these new terminators are so much deadlier than the previous model because the previous model had rubber skin, and this model looked exactly like a human. That doesn't make sense if they had been able to make machines or human-machines that looked human for 11 years.

EDIT - Not to mention the T800/T101 that shows up 11 years early.
The timeline issue becomes very convoluted no doubt. Basically, by T4 the machines have tried to kill Connor 3 times in the past, all without success. But, each one of the machines that goes back to the past leaves traces of itself and therefore changes the future to a greater of lesser degree. In other words, Skynet keeps progressing. By 2003 they are so advanced that they take Marcus and basically make him a robocop--part human, part machine.

However, the big difference with Marcus is that he does not know who he is, or what he is. He thinks he's human and he acts human. That is the wild card that keeps fate on the Human's side.

The way I see it is that the first two movies (T1 and T2) were about stopping the war. Sarah Connor wanted to stop the war, that's what she tried to do.

In T3 the philosophy changed to the simple fact that war cannot be stopped. No matter what John and Sarah Connor tried to do, the war was inevitable.

So the basic question behind the latter movies is--will the machines win or will the Humans win the war? The war is a fact, you can't get around it. But who wins the war is up in the air...
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:08 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
The timeline issue becomes very convoluted no doubt. Basically, by T4 the machines have tried to kill Connor 3 times in the past, all without success. But, each one of the machines that goes back to the past leaves traces of itself and therefore changes the future to a greater of lesser degree. In other words, Skynet keeps progressing. By 2003 they are so advanced that they take Marcus and basically make him a robocop--part human, part machine.

However, the big difference with Marcus is that he does not know who he is, or what he is. He thinks he's human and he acts human. That is the wild card that keeps fate on the Human's side.

The way I see it is that the first two movies (T1 and T2) were about stopping the war. Sarah Connor wanted to stop the war, that's what she tried to do.

In T3 the philosophy changed to the simple fact that war cannot be stopped. No matter what John and Sarah Connor tried to do, the war was inevitable.

So the basic question behind the latter movies is--will the machines win or will the Humans win the war? The war is a fact, you can't get around it. But who wins the war is up in the air...
I don't think SkyNet is progressing each time they send back a Terminator. In T1, Kyle says that all records are lost during Judgment Day. They don't know which Sarah Connor is John's mother, so the Terminator goes through the phone book killing all the Sarah Connors in LA. Besides, if they knew what happened before Judgment Day, they wouldn't send back any Terminators. They all fail, and if they don't make the time machine in the first place, John Connor would never exist.

I guess another reason I'm disappointed in the movie was that all 3 previous Terminators added a significant twist to the overall story.

T1: Laid out whole story, Kyle Reese is John Connor's dad.
T2: Chips are destroyed, Judgment day is apparently avoided.
T3: Judgment Day is unavoidable.
T4: Nothing really, maybe the fact that John Connor wasn't always the leader of the Resistance? That's pretty weak, though.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:12 PM   #89
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Spoiler:
Why are they capturing people at all? They never did anything with them, just herded them around like cattle.
because it's the start of the matrix...
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:15 PM   #90
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I don't think SkyNet is progressing each time they send back a Terminator. In T1, Kyle says that all records are lost during Judgment Day. They don't know which Sarah Connor is John's mother, so the Terminator goes through the phone book killing all the Sarah Connors in LA. Besides, if they knew what happened before Judgment Day, they wouldn't send back any Terminators. They all fail, and if they don't make the time machine in the first place, John Connor would never exist.

I guess another reason I'm disappointed in the movie was that all 3 previous Terminators added a significant twist to the overall story.

T1: Laid out whole story, Kyle Reese is John Connor's dad.
T2: Chips are destroyed, Judgment day is apparently avoided.
T3: Judgment Day is unavoidable.
T4: Nothing really, maybe the fact that John Connor wasn't always the leader of the Resistance? That's pretty weak, though.
Great points, I agree with all of the above. Movies about traveling through time are never gonna be perfect because when you dissect them, you'll see error after error in the story and time lines.

Let's just say that these Terminator movies raise as many questions as they answer and all of it has to do with time travel and the time line.

None of it really makes any sense at all, it's just a lot of great special effects with some creative license.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:19 PM   #91
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Great points, I agree with all of the above. Movies about traveling through time are never gonna be perfect because when you dissect them, you'll see error after error in the story and time lines.

Let's just say that these Terminator movies raise as many questions as they answer and all of it has to do with time travel and the time line.

None of it really makes any sense at all, it's just a lot of great special effects with some creative license.
Yeah, I honestly think that while right now most people are saying that T4 is better than T3, after a while when people look at what each movie contributed to the overall storyline and forget about the special effects and fight scenes, it will pretty much be consensus that T4 was the worst movie of the series so far (and I hope overall).
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:27 PM   #92
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Also, Marcus is much more advanced than Arnold's terminator was, and was apparently made 11 years earlier.
No, he wasn't. Marcus was the first infiltrator, and the only one of his kind. He had a human brain and heart, and as you saw, that was a weakness that was exploited at the end of the movie.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:29 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
Spoiler:
Do you mean blowing up the factory? If SkyNet is a global network, it should have the design information for it accessible somewhere else, too. It shouldn't forget how to make something for 11 years because a factory got blown up.
Shouldn't forget how to make something, but at the same time, who is to say that wasn't the only facility that Skynet currently had that was equipped to make T-800s (endoskeletons, power supplies, blood/tissue)?
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:33 PM   #94
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No, he wasn't. Marcus was the first infiltrator, and the only one of his kind. He had a human brain and heart, and as you saw, that was a weakness that was exploited at the end of the movie.
the one that was crushed and then used again?
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:33 PM   #95
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Shouldn't forget how to make something, but at the same time, who is to say that wasn't the only facility that Skynet currently had that was equipped to make T-800s (endoskeletons, power supplies, blood/tissue)?
Didn't the movie close with Connor saying the San Fran plant was just the beginning, and Skynet is worldwide?
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:36 PM   #96
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the one that was crushed and then used again?
That was so ****ed up, someone didn't know how to end a movie and took the easy way out.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:38 PM   #97
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Didn't the movie close with Connor saying the San Fran plant was just the beginning, and Skynet is worldwide?
Actually, they covered that with the "master command" and the "europa" branches of the resistance.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:44 PM   #98
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Didn't the movie close with Connor saying the San Fran plant was just the beginning, and Skynet is worldwide?
It is, but that doesn't necessarily mean that T-800s are produced all over the place at this point. It's the first batch of T-800s (in the data raid in the beginning, they kept mentioning the new Terminator) and 2018 is still a relatively early part of the war. Most companies or corporations don't go global off the bat with a new "item". It's usually manufactured in one place originally and the locations expand as time goes on.

The technology isn't up to the flash forwards yet either, the only plasma weapons I saw were on the HKs, all the Terminators looked like they were still using bullets and the same with the Resistance.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:55 PM   #99
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That was so ****ed up, someone didn't know how to end a movie and took the easy way out.
Apparently they were kind of re-writing the movie as they went along.

Lots and lots of Spoilers:

Quote:
EXCLUSIVE: WHAT WENT WRONG WITH TERMINATOR SALVATION?

* By Devin Faraci
* Published Today

This article, while about an alternate version of Terminator Salvation, does contain spoilers for the version in theaters now.

The Terminator Salvation you saw on movie screens this weekend was not always the Terminator Salvation that was meant to be. Like in the franchise itself, history has been changed, and the original script for Terminator Salvation ended up getting gutted. You can still see the outlines of that script in the current film (a form of deja vu, as similar vestigial script elements can be seen in this summer's blockbuster hit Star Trek), but the specifics that might have made Terminator Salvation if not better at least more interesting are gone.

What caused these massive changes? And what were they? The biggest change came when McG flew to the UK to talk to Christian Bale about starring in the fourth Terminator movie. The director wanted the Batman star to play Marcus Wright, the cyborg protagonist of the script. But Bale focused on another part: John Connor. The only problem is that John Connor had about three minutes of screen time in the entire film; most of Connor's moments were played offscreen. In the original script John Connor was the secretive leader of the Resistance. He lived on the HQ sub, and almost no one saw his face, so as to keep him hidden from the robots. Connor made radio addresses and existed as a legend for the fighting men and women of the Resistance, but in the original script Connor didn't show up onscreen until the last minutes of the movie.

You may remember in late 2007 when the rumor that Bale was signing on to Terminator 4 surfaced there were two competing reports: while Aint It Cool had Bale tipped to play Connor, we had him tipped to play a Terminator. As you can see both are correct; for a little while people involved in the film were assuming that Bale was going to let go of the Connor idea and move over to the Marcus role, but he had something else up his sleeve: massive rewrites to beef up the John Connor role.

Watching Terminator Salvation as it exists in theaters it's easy to see that this was a bad idea. The script that ended up getting shot never quite finds anything for John Connor to do. If you were to remove Connor from the film, relegating him once again to radio voice over, almost none of the film's plot would be changed. It's likely that the new Connor scenes were the work of Jonathan Nolan, who did do a lot of writing on the film, but who was denied credit by the WGA. The reason would be that all of the work Nolan did was cosmetic - adding Connor scenes that had no bearing on the film's structure or plot.

Bale's desire to star as John Connor was probably the most fatal blow to the film; it completely distorted the shape of the story as it existed. But the other fatal blow came from the internet. When the original ending of the script leaked - John Connor is killed by a Terminator and has his skin grafted onto Marcus Wright, who takes up the shadowy leader's place as the leader of the Resistance - many people went crazy. On the surface it seemed like a major slap in the face of the franchise, and doubly so on paper: John Connor, the guy who the entire franchise is ostensibly about, shows up for two and a half pages, gets killed and has his face transplanted onto a robot (in the original script it's actually just the face that gets slapped on Marcus).

There are differing reports as to how far that ending made it. McG has gone on the record again and again saying that was never the ending he wanted (he came on to the project after the script we're talking about here was written), but there's a lot of contrary evidence, including on-set reports that have 'Connor becomes robot' written on production calendars. The entire finished film itself feels like evidence that the original ending was always the intended ending. The movie seems to be inexorably building towards the 'Connor dies' finale, including elements like endless scenes featuring Sarah Connor's tapes, obviously intended to give Marcus/Connor a primer on John Connor's life and destiny. In fact, when John Connor got a pole through the chest I was excited - had McG been lying to us all along and kept the original ending?

Of course he wasn't. The film's biggest weakness comes in the final minutes, which feel almost completely slapped on, as the character we've been following makes a sudden and boring sacrifice. The air just explodes out of the movie as John Connor's rescue feels utterly unearned, and the ending of the movie is so final that you walk out of the theater not caring whether or not the future war is ever again revisited.

So what might have been? Before the Bale rewrites and before the internet kiboshed the original ending?

With John Connor relegated to the shadows for most of the film, the original Terminator Salvation focused more on the relationship between Kyle and Marcus. Star was always there, and was essentially always just as useless, but without the constant cutaways to pointless Connor scenes the film was able to delve more into Kyle/Marcus. The script spent time examining what it was like living in a post-apocalyptic world, and was more definitively R-rated. At the gas station Marcus saves Kyle and Star from a group of cannibals, throwing one of them into an open fire (intended as a callback to the biker on the stove in T2. It's important to note that the original script by extraordinary hacks Brancato and Ferris - the guys who wrote The Net, Catwoman and Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines - is not some discarded gem. It's got plenty of problems of its own).

But again, with Connor out of the script the relationship between Kyle and Marcus gets to grow, which gives Marcus' later quest to rescue Kyle more weight. And the early scenes where Kyle can't drive are paid off in this script, first with a sequence where Marcus teaches him to drive and later, in the third act, where Kyle gets the final heroic beat he's missing in the finished film.

As in the final film Kyle and Star are captured by Skynet and transported to Skynet City, but with one major change: Skynet has no idea who Kyle Reese is. This is a point that bothers many viewers of the final film; I'm not radically concerned, as Kyle Reese's time traveling shenanigans are public record enough that it's believable Skynet would have found out about him while taking over the world's computer networks. But by having Skynet not know who Kyle is the original script removes the machines' idiotic plan to bring John Connor to Skynet City instead of simply killing his dad. This feels like the kind of change that was made to give John Connor more to do, since the whole sequence where Connor convinces the Resistance forces to step down doesn't occur in this script (and why would it? He's Michael Ironsides in this movie).

Marcus' adventures with Blair are slightly different. In the original script he saves Blair from a pack of rabid wolves as opposed to horny rapists. This scene was important because it gives Marcus his first awareness that he's much faster and stronger than he used to be, something he couldn't quite prove against humans in a PG-13 movie (although could you wreck a group of wolves in a PG-13 movie?). In the finished film Blair and Marcus have a tender moment; the original script takes things very, very differently: Blair offers Marcus a STAF. That's Sit Tight And ****, a phrase in common use in the Resistance. See, it's a horrible, miserable future and the humans of the time have gotten over their petty prudery. If the only joy they can get is ****ing, why not take it? Life is cheap and they may not live to see the next night, so tap whatever ass you can.

The next big change comes when Marcus is captured by the Resistance. John Connor remains offscreen and he interrogates Marcus via com-link. But Connor is thinking like the John Connor who has become used to temporal assassination attempts, and he believes that Marcus has been sent from an even more advanced future to kill him. Meanwhile, we have more cutaways to Kyle Reese being transported to Skynet City; this script really forwards Reese in a way that the finished movie fails to do.

Marcus escapes the Resistance more or less as seen in the finished and heads to Skynet City. And it's here that the major changes really come into play.

In the original script the title Terminator Salvation actually meant something. Watching the finished film it's hard to figure out why it has that name - is it because Marcus saves Connor's life in the last minute? In the original script Serena has a bigger role than a quick cameo, and she explains the salvation element.

Marcus comes to Skynet City and finds... a seaside resort populated with humans. He sees Terminator landscapers! It turns out that Skynet hasn't been trying to wipe out humanity. It's been trying to save us.

This is perhaps the most bizarre idea in the whole script, and the one that most obviously doesn't work. It seems as though Brancato and Ferris thought people liked the Matrix sequels, as this all feels like it could be in those films. See, Serena heads Project ANGEL, which is making Hybrids (ie, Cyborgs). The reason? Skynet did a calculation and realized that humanity was going to be extinct in 200 years; the machines decided to save a few by turning them into Hybrids and wipe the rest out. It makes no sense, and is the kind of thing that makes you wonder if these guys ever even watched the previous Terminator films.

What's fascinating is that the Project ANGEL stuff lasted well into production. While I was on set I was given a security badge that gave me access to all the stages; it had Project ANGEL's logo on it. While being given a tour of pre-production artwork we were told more about Project ANGEL and the role it would have in the movie, a role that's completely removed from the final film. At the time I visited the set it seemed like Serena was going to show up in person at the end of the movie, just as she does in the script, and I saw artwork depicting that.

It's here that you can really understand where Terminator Salvation fell to pieces. The film was being rewritten, piecemeal, on the set. Instead of re-engineering the whole picture it seems like McG and company were just tackling each segment, figuring out how to get John Connor more involved without fixing the underlying structure at which they were picking away.

Serena, a cyborg herself, meets Marcus and explains Project ANGEL and the seaside resort to him. She also explains the Transport chip - it's embedded in all cyborgs and prevents them from feeling pain and emotion. She then gives Marcus a tour of the whole Skynet City, showing off the T-800s that are being developed and giving him a peak at the T-1000 and T-X in the earliest stages. She also shows him the time machine technology they've been working on, and the neural net AI database of human brains, which will allow the Terminators to better act like humans and as such better infiltrate human encampments.

Then the big shock: Marcus is too late. Kyle's brain has been removed and he's been uploaded to the neural net database, and Star has been terminated. All hope is lost, and Serena has activated his Transport chip, so Marcus can't do anything.

Just then there's an explosion. Serena is distracted and, just like in the finished film (where it actually makes less sense), Marcus rips out his Transport chip. He then jumps into the time machine, which burns his clothes off, and he goes back in time just far enough to rescue Kyle and Star, grab a laser weapon and set off the explosion that distracted Serena (whether or not Brancato and Ferris were watching Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey while writing this scene is unconfirmed). And then the action begins.

The trio try to escape Skynet City with Kyle driving an ATV, paying off his driving lessons. They're pursued by Hunter/Killer Terminator Tanks, and they take most of them out as they rip through the seaside resort (including killing one Tank by... making it drive into a pool), but they end up on a dock and with one last H/K tank about to end them. Then suddenly Blair shows up leading an airstrike that destroys the tank. Then the sub surfaces, and John Connor finally makes his appearance, leading human troops in combat against the Terminators at the resort. Connor and Kyle meet, but it's not a big moment.

Marcus has rescued a bunch of humans while at Skynet City and the Resistance take them aboard the sub. Everybody is happy and it seems like the Resistance has won the day when Marcus suddenly realizes that Serena is among the refugees. She attacks, blowing off his arm and gut shooting John Connor. Fade to black.

Later Marcus wakes up in the hospital. Blair tells him that they're covering up Project ANGEL - even within the film this was too stupid to let anyone know about it. But there's bad news: John Connor's not going to make it. His wound is fatal. On his death bed John Connor gives Kyle the picture of Sarah Connor (when I interviewed Anton Yelchin he confirmed that this scene had been cut before shooting, which he thought was a good idea. That does make it seem like the original ending was never intended for production). John and Kate beg Marcus to take up the mantle of John Connor - since no one has really seen him anybody can be him. The legend is bigger than the man, they insist.

Marcus agrees, and John Connor's face is grafted onto Marcus (this, it turns out, is the source of Connor's scars. You would think they would have cut off his face from the back of the head, under the hair, but I guess not), despite the fact that nobody really knows what Connor looks like anyway. But it's done, and Connor dies and Marcus now must step up and lead the Resistance into the future.

In a lot of ways the original Terminator Salvation script is still poking through in the final film. In fact, except for the additional John Connor nonsense in the first two acts, the opening two-thirds of the movie (minus the prologue, which was not in this script) more or less follow the original beats. These are the best parts of the movie, and it's when the finished film moves into the third act that everything starts falling apart. It's obvious that McG and Jonathan Nolan never really cracked their own third act, and without the death of John Connor they never found a reason for this movie to even exist. In effect what they've done with their undercooked third act is make a movie that's a TV episode - in the end everything is more or less back at the status quo. And by backgrounding Kyle and robbing him of his third act heroics, the finished film has taken away its only other good reason to exist, namely that it's the beginnings of the Connor/Reese friendship.

Would the original ending have worked? People would have walked out of theaters mad, no doubt. But it was a ballsy idea that could have been executed better than it was in the script. You don't even need to do the face transplant - have Marcus be the original owner of those John Connor scars the whole movie and they'd read like a reveal at the finale. The ending of Salvation now is so pat that it isn't the opening of a new trilogy but just another boring prequel, setting up things we already knew about. Killing Connor would have been shocking and would have added drama to the upcoming installments. Hell, it sounds like Skynet City offered pretty great technology to the heroes - why not have Connor's brain downloaded into Marcus' body?

These are all pointless considerations now. The finished film opted to play utterly safe, and as a result it's a lump without buzz or excitement. Ironically Bale's demand to beef up John Connor, which led to a final film that is utterly distended, would have perfectly set up the character's demise. The biggest problem with Connor dying at the end of the original script is that his death carries no weight as he's a nobody throughout the film. But in the current movie, which feels like it's building to that death, it would have been the kind of surprise that works, one that's had a foundation laid.

The beefing up of Connor led to the diminishment of Reese, a big problem in the final product. Anton Yelchin came on to Terminator Salvation at a time when he was the second lead; I imagine his demotion must have been disheartening. And to audiences it's disappointing as Yelchin is the best actor in the piece. A Terminator Salvation with twice as much Yelchin might very well have been a movie that was more enjoyable, in the same way that Star Trek overcomes its script handicaps with great casting.

Looking at this weekend's box office it's likely that Terminator Salvation is the end of the franchise. And it's probably the end of Christian Bale forcing major rewrites on projects as well. I do think that a smarter rewrite of the original Brancato/Ferris script, one that allowed for a truly shocking ending, might have turned out a film whose failure at the box office would have been worth mourning. While I enjoyed myself watching Salvation, at no point did I really give a **** about what was happening or what was going to happen next in the series. McG and Nolan muddied the end of the picture, delivering action generics (yet another Terminator fight in a factory) while never finding their own hook that would give this movie more of an impact than you would get from an expanded universe novel. The only thing that was really, truly broken in Brancato and Ferris' script was Project ANGEL, and the finished film doesn't really give Skynet any better motivation for collecting humans. McG, fearing the fan backlash (which was already starting when the original ending leaked) opted to 'fix' the element that least needed fixing.

http://www.chud.com/articles/article...ION/Page1.html
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:57 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
No, he wasn't. Marcus was the first infiltrator, and the only one of his kind. He had a human brain and heart, and as you saw, that was a weakness that was exploited at the end of the movie.
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
In T1, Kyle talks about how these new terminators are so much deadlier than the previous model because the previous model had rubber skin, and this model looked exactly like a human. That doesn't make sense if they had been able to make machines or human-machines that looked human for 11 years.

EDIT - Not to mention the T800/T101 that shows up 11 years early.
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