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Old 05-18-2009, 02:57 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
Very true. And when you average 15.5 points a game, as we did in our 8 losses, you're also not going to have a lot of success.

Take the Buffalo game as an example. We outgained the Bills 532-275. That's right, almost double the offensive yardage output. But we didn't put the ball in the endzone enough and turned the ball over twice. And somehow this is the defense's fault?!?

Our defense was awful, I'll grant you that. But the defense isn't the only problem this team had and doesn't deserve ALL of the blame.
That is not our defenses fault, but we didn't get any turnovers in that game. Not only that, but after the 1st period the defense held Buffalo without a score one 1 drive. On 6 of their 7 drives they came away with points.

Our offense in that game started 6 of 9 drives inside our own 30 yard line. Buffalo on the other hand started inside their 30 only 4 of 9 times.

There are so many reasons we lost that game, a part of it is the interception Cutler threw in the red zone, no doubt, but another and much larger part is that we couldn't keep Buffalo from getting points and we couldn't get good field position.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:23 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever View Post
The Ayers statement isn't crap. it wasn't until the last few years when Mike was listening to advice from the Goodmans that our drafts were actually good. everyone knows that almost every decision made with the team was made by Shanahan alone.

And i am not saying Cutler is a complete dummy when it comes to the mental aspects of the game, i am saying that Orton is better, and unlike Jay he doesn't have the ego of thinking he can throw a ball through a brick wall, which means he will think before he throws and make better decisions than Jay did. we all know there were a few plays every game, sometimes more, where Jay threw passes that made everyone think WTF is he thinking, and that occured because he was too egotistical thinking he could squeeze a ball anywhere.
Orton doesn't have that arm or ego. He is going to come in be smart with the ball, and listen to his coaches.
Dude every coach listen to the guys under him. Shanahan made the finally decision but it was based on what his staff told him. Moss was Bates, MOC was Turner, Marshall was the WR coach and Goodman. TD was Kubes. And McDaniels has the finally say just like Shanahan did and he too bases it on what the scouts and position coaches tell him (just like Mike). To
praise what happen all over the league as something special is BS

And on Cutler let see what a pro say about him.

"Former Cowboys defensive coordinator Brian Stewart doesn't need the tutorial on Bears quarterback Jay Cutler. Stewart saw it up close, coaching in joint training camp practices and preseason games against the Broncos the last two years.

"I saw that he's a very competitive person who had a deep understanding of what they do," Stewart said. "He could go to receivers and say, 'Do this, do that,' and he was gonna get after them. The receivers understood that. And in that system, he came across as a smart, athletic, bigarmed guy." ( http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=550107)

Rationally all you want but there is reason everyone in the league wanted Cutler and not Orton.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:34 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mr.Meanie View Post
Really, really bad analogy. That's just horribly bad.

If you're trying to say how good Jay is vs. Orton when teams hold each other under 21 points, here is how you make the comparison:

Defense holding opponent under 21 points:

Cutler - 10-1 - .909 career winning percentage
Orton - 17-3 - .850 career winning percentage


That's not a really big difference...

On the other hand, Defense allowing opponent more than 21 points:

Cutler - 5-24 - .208 career winning percentage
Orton - 4-6 - .400 career winning percentage


Who looks better there? It's still not a huge difference.... but by that ridiculous measuring stick it looks like Orton is the better player.

The point is, football is all about team. There are some times when the defense wins and loses games, when the QB wins and loses games, when the kicker and ST wins and loses games. It's beyond retarded to use those stats to say one player is better than the other.

QB rating is a better stat to use if you're going to try to compare. Better yet... leadership on and off the field, work ethic, intelligence, and what their teammates say about them is a much better indicator of which QB is superior. I think we would all agree that Orton is far superior to Vick, although Vick is more athletically gifted. He just doesn't posess the intangibles that make a QB great in the NFL.

edit: actually I went back and checked those numbers. Orton was actually .400 when defenses allowed >21
Lol, thank you. That's exactly what i was trying to get across in my earlier posts.

I'm assuming by "Vick" you meant Cutler right?
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:55 PM   #104
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Here's my main beef with Orton

His 60 QB rating when he throws more than 21 passes. Plus having to go 80 yards I don't see Orton and his 6 ypa seeing the red zone as much as Cutler did.

Not until our D starts generating turnovers and shorter fields for our O to work with
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:44 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
That is not our defenses fault...
Exactly. The defense only gave up 275 total yards. The offense put up 532 pretty yards but didn't cross the goal line enough. Some of you guys want to start chanting MVP every time you hear Jay Cutler's name but games like this expose him for what he really is.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:52 PM   #106
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Exactly. The defense only gave up 275 total yards. The offense put up 532 pretty yards but didn't cross the goal line enough. Some of you guys want to start chanting MVP every time you hear Jay Cutler's name but games like this expose him for what he really is.
Young talented QB that didn't have running game and is just coming into his own. With more playing time he would have stop making the young QB mistake and game would slow down for him.
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:26 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by elsid13 View Post

"I saw that he's a very competitive person who had a deep understanding of what they do," Stewart said. "He could go to receivers and say, 'Do this, do that,' and he was gonna get after them. The receivers understood that. And in that system, he came across as a smart, athletic, bigarmed guy." ( http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=550107)

Rationally all you want but there is reason everyone in the league wanted Cutler and not Orton.
i never said that i thought Cutler was an idiot. I was simply saying that with his strong arm, occasionally he didn't fully use his head because his ego got in the way, thinking he could fit a ball into any opening no matter how small or that he could throw a football through a brick wall. if he made a mistake he became mopey and he wasn't using his head afterwards.

Orton doesn't have the howitzer arm that will cloud his mind, making him think he can squeeze a ball into any opening meaning no ego and less mistakes, also with his prior experiences in Chicago where he had no receiving weapons and did make mistakes because of the lack of weapons he doesn't get down on himself for his mistakes. he moves on immediately. Little things don't cloud his mind, the way they did Jay.
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:29 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by CEH View Post
Here's my main beef with Orton

His 60 QB rating when he throws more than 21 passes. Plus having to go 80 yards I don't see Orton and his 6 ypa seeing the red zone as much as Cutler did.

Not until our D starts generating turnovers and shorter fields for our O to work with
Cutler couldn't go 80 yards either. He was golden between the 20s but the moment he got to the red zone he turned to ****.

also, now that Orton will have time to throw and will have actual receiving weapons his QB rating will go up.
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:32 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever View Post
i never said that i thought Cutler was an idiot. I was simply saying that with his strong arm, occasionally he didn't fully use his head because his ego got in the way, thinking he could fit a ball into any opening no matter how small or that he could throw a football through a brick wall. if he made a mistake he became mopey and he wasn't using his head afterwards.

Orton doesn't have the howitzer arm that will cloud his mind, making him think he can squeeze a ball into any opening meaning no ego and less mistakes, also with his prior experiences in Chicago where he had no receiving weapons and did make mistakes because of the lack of weapons he doesn't get down on himself for his mistakes. he moves on immediately. Little things don't cloud his mind, the way they did Jay.
Everyone continue to make that statement Orton won't screw up. This clip show why I think we're in trouble. This decision is one of the worse I have ever seen from veteran QB.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-vs-Bears-2008

Last edited by elsid13; 05-18-2009 at 07:34 PM..
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:05 PM   #110
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I'd sure like to bring up some of Elway's boneheaded plays his first years, but then agan, he had at least as respectable defense.

Remember the 1991 buffalo game where we got shut downn the second half of the 1997 AFC title game against the Jets were we shut them out in the second half?

Or how Elway would get so pumped up in SB's he couldn't get a pass 10 yards near a reciever or the entire first quarter?
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:14 PM   #111
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I'd sure like to bring up some of Elway's boneheaded plays his first years, but then agan, he had at least as respectable defense.

Remember the 1991 buffalo game where we got shut downn the second half of the 1997 AFC title game against the Jets were we shut them out in the second half?

Or how Elway would get so pumped up in SB's he couldn't get a pass 10 yards near a reciever or the entire first quarter?
Didn't John have turf toe in the 1991 championship game? Maybe we win if John is healthy but we would have been embarrased in the SB anyway that year.

You are right about the SB's.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:51 PM   #112
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As of right now.... I would rather have Matt Ryan than any other QB if we are going to play this game!
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:53 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever View Post
The Ayers statement isn't crap. it wasn't until the last few years when Mike was listening to advice from the Goodmans that our drafts were actually good. everyone knows that almost every decision made with the team was made by Shanahan alone.

And i am not saying Cutler is a complete dummy when it comes to the mental aspects of the game, i am saying that Orton is better, and unlike Jay he doesn't have the ego of thinking he can throw a ball through a brick wall, which means he will think before he throws and make better decisions than Jay did. we all know there were a few plays every game, sometimes more, where Jay threw passes that made everyone think WTF is he thinking, and that occured because he was too egotistical thinking he could squeeze a ball anywhere.
Orton doesn't have that arm or ego. He is going to come in be smart with the ball, and listen to his coaches.

Dude. I love your avie..............
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:09 PM   #114
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Everyone continue to make that statement Orton won't screw up. This clip show why I think we're in trouble. This decision is one of the worse I have ever seen from veteran QB.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-vs-Bears-2008
i am also not saying Orton will never make mistakes. but unlike Cutler he doesn't get all mopey after a mistake, and he doesn't have 3 or 4 WTF moments a game like Cutler does. sure he has made some stupid mistakes, every QB has and every QB will, but he moves on, Cutler lets that **** fester on his mind
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:40 PM   #115
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As a member of the screaming meemies, I can only say this may or may not work.
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:59 PM   #116
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Really, really bad analogy. That's just horribly bad.
Have you ever been sitting in your car at a red light and the guy next to you started rolling backwards? You thought you were going forward instead? That's what you're doing here...you think you see what's happening, but you don't because you're focused on the wrong thing. You missed the entire point, which was NOT to compare the performance record of these guys...I offered it here to make another point however...
Quote:
If you're trying to say how good Jay is vs. Orton when teams hold each other under 21 points, here is how you make the comparison:
that's not the intention but let's continue anyway...

Defense holding opponent under 21 points:

Cutler - 10-1 - .909 career winning percentage
Orton - 17-3 - .850 career winning percentage


That's not a really big difference...

On the other hand, Defense allowing opponent more than 21 points:

Cutler - 5-24 - .208 career winning percentage
Orton - 4-6 - .400 career winning percentage
Let's start with these numbers, which are wrong since it's 33 games started, not 30 for Orton. Orton is 4-8 not 4-6 in games where the Bears gave up 21 or more. He's 17-4, not 17-3 in games they gave up fewer than 21. Cutler is 12-1 not 10-1 in games the opposition scores under 21 and 5-19, not 5-24 in games where the opposition scores 21 or more...where are you getting these stats from? All of them were incorrect.

None of this is the point however, becaue the REAL point is not to compare them to each other...that's what you're missing. The point is that a QB needs a defense to win and both of these guys do. Orton's winning % is .333 without the defensive support and Cutler is .208%. With the defensive support Orton's at .809% and Cutler's at .923%...basically it's a wash. Cutler's better by about the same margin when his defense holds teams under 21 as Orton is when his team gave up 21 or more.

That is NOT the point I'm making. If you DO want to make this point, then consider that in games where the opposition gave up more than 21 (where Orton's record is better) Chicago's defense surrendered an average of 28 ppg and Denvers gave up 33 per game, which is a distinct advantage for Orton and obviously negates any edge he displays in winning percentage.

The real point here...is not what there records are. The point is this; while Orton played in only 12 games where his defense gave up 21 or more points, Cutler has played in 24...twice as many.

In other words...Orton had a huge advantage in games bolstered by his defense.

Quote:
Who looks better there? It's still not a huge difference.... but by that ridiculous measuring stick it looks like Orton is the better player.
Wrong again. Besides the 5 ppg advantage enjoyed by Orton when his defense gave up 21 or more...he also had the advantage in games under the 21 threshold because Denver's D surrendered 16.2 ppg and Chicago's gave up 10.6, about 5 1/2 points a game, an enormous edge in low scoring games. So not only did Orton play half as many games where the defense didn't come through, but he enjoyed a 5 point advantage whenever they did. Given tha their winning percentages broken down here were relatively close, Orton does NOT emerge from this looking better than Cutler.

Again...the only real point is that no QB wins without a defense. That should be clear by now.

Last edited by footstepsfrom#27; 05-18-2009 at 11:03 PM..
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