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Old 04-25-2009, 10:49 PM   #1
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Anyone else think that scoring touchdowns is more important than field goals?

Because its all nice and and pretty to move the ball up and down the field and settle for field goals like this squad did last year. Teams knew that once we got inside the 20 that we could not line up and smash the ball in.....

in order to score we had to trick the opposition.... this offense was 17th in the league in points scored. 2nd in total yardage.

Some of you fanboys need to go back and look at the offensive scheme new england runs, i'm not talking about the passing game, i'm talking about the running game, check out how the tight end is utilized in everything from sweep, to draw, to inside crack/trap plays.

TIME OF POSSESION, it is important, and it takes pressure off of a Defense. Ask champ bailey if he would like that, if the offense could hold a lead, grind it out, punch it in............ Selvin Young was a joke, Ryan Torain was too, Hillis was/still is a thumper. This team needed a genuine big time threat to keep defenses honest. Now teams will have to keep an extra man up in the box, not lean him over to marshall. A couple of gash runs buy Moreno and they will understand.

Moreno can do it all, between the tackles, great hands, explosive, finishes runs. He will get better as the game goes on and imagine Opposing defenses facing him and hillis in the second half of games, with eddie and b-marsh and scheffler coming out with mismatches all over the field, what does the opposing safety do? stay in the box? Cover Marshall? What about play action to Moreno? What about running more screens, Moreno will be a monster at running the screen! Orton can simply make one read and audible to the best match up on the field. I'm telling you guys, you need to study McDaniels system, its all about match ups on the field, down and distance, what personnel group is in....

Our offensive line is dominant already, and now with an elite running back talent wise the sky is the limit to create favorable match ups for this entire offense. Our QB's got better with this RB, our Offensive Line knows they have a finisher and there will be more favorable match ups for the wr's and tight ends.

Alphonso Smith is going to surprise many of you, how many times last year did we get to a 3rd and long situation only to see our Defense not be able to cover? How many times did our dime package cover or get a pick? How many times did opposing offenses convert 3rd downs with ease by picking on our weakest corner or safety? the solution? get the drafts best man corner and best cover safety, these guys have MAD ball skills, they aren't great tacklers, but listen to what the coach said.........they got them for our nickel and dime packages, no more vernon fox's.......... These guys will play on passing downs!


They will play a base D on 1st and 2nd, and a pass coverage scheme on 3rd downs, Smith and McBath make our Pass Defense much better, we might actually get some interceptions! Our pass defense is much improved after today.

Why is no one talking about Ayers ability to line up inside on passing downs, did anyone watch any film on him when he lines up inside on passing downs, because our scouts did, and he is a MAJOR pass rushing threat inside when lined up over a gaurd, he will do a ton of that on 3rd and long situations, again improving our pass rush on nickel and dime packages.

I know none of you are happy with our group up front, but they are not as bad as you think, with a new scheme Ron Fields will eat up space at NT, he won't make any tackles, but he will occupy guards and centers. We have plenty of pure edge pass rushers, Dumervill, Jarvis Moss, and even Reid, inside Andre Davis can hold the point with Larsen, and DJ will be free to roam at Will. Boss Bailey can even play in Nickel as a coverage linebacker... Ayers will play many positions, sometimes lining up outside, sometimes inside, sometimes dropping in zone blitz, he is a weapon, look how new england uses adalius thomas........Ayers is a weapon that will improve the Defense in several ways.

The tight end today (QUINN) makes so much sense, the pick is essential in giving the offense the blocking threat it needed. Again, the NFL is about packages, and in 2nd and 3rd in short the offense utilizes many complex and diverse personnel groupings. One of the hardest formations to stop in short yardage is the compression formation, which utilizes 3 tight ends, usually one who is a threat to catch, one is a mix, a good pass catcher and a very capable blocker, and the other is a specialist, usually a very complete blocker.
Scheffler, Graham and now Quinn.

McDaniels also has his passing offense with one back and 3 wr's. Marshall, Royal, Stockley, even Gaffney, or any combo of the Wr's and Scheffler, this team has a full repertoire for running the spread as well. The Broncos can come out in spread, with Moreno at Tail Back, and the Wideouts spread across the field, all Orton has to do is go through his pre snap reads and then he can either audible to the run with Moreno (who is a real threat to gash Defenses) our see where the opposing safety is and exploit the mismatch in the form of Marshall, Scheffler, Royal, or Stockley.

Kyle Orton now has all the weapons and pieces to succeed in any situation, 1st down, short yardage, passing situations. This team WILL score more points, and pick up more first downs in crucial short yardage.

Alphonso Smith, McBath, and Quinn will all play special teams right away, Smith will return kicks, McBath is an excellent coverage man, and Quinn will play on field goal and punt and kick receive packages.

So go ahead and cry, cry about how much we paid to get these guys, cry about how we didn't draft jarvis moss 2.0 at 12, cry about how we didn't draft a nose tackle or a 5 technique defensive end. Trading next years one for Alphonso smith is a definite risk, but this is a team that isn't playing scared.

I give our coach a solid B, and I think alot of you are fascinated with flash and not substance....
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:53 PM   #2
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I wish you were right.

Where is the pass rush?

Billicheat got Brace for less than our blocking TE.

Last edited by watermock; 04-25-2009 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:57 PM   #3
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Again, its not the players, its the philosophy. You can have all pro bowlers in your secondary and they will all be exposed if you can't stop the run or rush the passer. Your view of most of our front seven is rosey at best.
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:01 PM   #4
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Excellent post wolf....

You and I have known for years now that Shanahan needed to go. We finally got our wish and it will be great to see a new brand of football. Truly an exciting time to be a Bronco fan.

Pat Bowlen for TIME's man of the year!
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:09 PM   #5
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Holy **** I agree with Wolf on something.
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:20 PM   #6
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Nice post Wolf!
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:37 PM   #7
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Again, its not the players, its the philosophy. You can have all pro bowlers in your secondary and they will all be exposed if you can't stop the run or rush the passer. Your view of most of our front seven is rosey at best.
We could have had five first round picks and spent them all on the defensive line and it still would have sucked ass this next year. Rookie linemen almost always take time to become good.

People are b****ing about mortgaging the future but the real betting the future would have been if we did take a ton of defensive linemen. We would have seen little to no results this next year out of them in all likelihood, odds are at least half would bust, and to top it all off this is a weak draft for the DL positions.

Our defensive line isn't a strong point for us to say the least but taking any DL we could get our hands on just because we need them won't fix a damn thing. I would hope 07 would be fresh in everybody's mind. That's what happens when you panic and try to fill needs with players of poor quality.
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:42 PM   #8
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Roster Comparison:

Quarterback:
Jay Cutler Vs. Kyle Orton / Chris Simms - Point goes to Shanahan

Runningback:
Selvin Young/Tatem Bell/Whoever Vs. Knowshon Moreno/Hillis/Whoever - Ill take Moreno, McDaniels Point

OL/TE/FB/WR- Wash, no real change

DL- McDaniels Point, no contest
LB- McDaniels Point, no contest
Safety- McDaniels Point, no contest
Corner- Wash, too early to tell, Bly was still solid but not outstanding.

Defensive Coordinator
15 Yard Cushion King vs. Mike Nolan - McDaniels Point, no contest

Special Teams- I'd wager they can't be much worse, but a wash at this point.

OLD BRONCOS - 1 NEW BRONCOS - 5
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:53 PM   #9
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We could have had five first round picks and spent them all on the defensive line and it still would have sucked ass this next year. Rookie linemen almost always take time to become good.

People are b****ing about mortgaging the future but the real betting the future would have been if we did take a ton of defensive linemen. We would have seen little to no results this next year out of them in all likelihood, odds are at least half would bust, and to top it all off this is a weak draft for the DL positions.

Our defensive line isn't a strong point for us to say the least but taking any DL we could get our hands on just because we need them won't fix a damn thing. I would hope 07 would be fresh in everybody's mind. That's what happens when you panic and try to fill needs with players of poor quality.
Are we going to win the super bowl next season? probably not, so i can be patient with the new hypothetical linemen. Its just failed philosophy to ignore your front seven. thats my only point.
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:55 PM   #10
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Good post. Our offense had a few problems last season: not being able to control the ball (scoring too quickly), and not scoring enough TDs in the red zone (a consistent problem ever since the TD days). A ball control offense that is potent in the red zone will help the defense and our chances of winning.

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Old 04-26-2009, 12:04 AM   #11
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A ball control offense that is potent in the red zone will help the defense and our chances of winning.
not when their getting the ball rammed down their throat by every team that likes to pound the ball. You know teams like
chiefs
raiders
chargers
redskins
cowboys
ravens
steelers
giants
eagles

all of whom we happen to play next year.

If DL wasn't a priority in the draft why did xanders not address it in FA?
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:06 AM   #12
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Are we going to win the super bowl next season? probably not, so i can be patient with the new hypothetical linemen. Its just failed philosophy to ignore your front seven. thats my only point.
SOLL,

Did you check out the link on the other thread about Fields? Don't count him out as a possible nice contributor at NT.

So, in the off-season we've added...

-Ayers, potentially the top DE and top defender in this draft
-Fields, a solid young player thought to have some good upside at NT.
-Reid, another young, solid DE with some experience.
-Andra Davis, a vet known to be very solid against the run.
-Re-signed Peterson, a guy who played well last year and can play 3-4 DE with no problem.

We'll also be moving Elvis and Thomas to spots where I personally think they'll be much more productive.

Again, Powell is also like a free draft pick this year. He was regarded as one of the best run-stuffers to come out last season.

So, I wouldn't say we've "done nothing" to address the weaknesses in the front seven. Yes, I would have liked to see some kind of slam-dunk stud linebacker be available for us, but it appears there weren't many, if any.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:14 AM   #13
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First, even at the height of Shanny's tenure, we never had a "dominant" defense. We might have been decent statistically but I wouldn't have described our defense as dominant. It was an average to above average defense helped by a dominant, ball-control offense. This combination was good enough to win Super Bowls.

Second, there is no one in this draft that we could have picked that would have turned our defense into some awesome run-stuffing machine. D-line prospects are notorious for taking time to reach their potential, if at all. This year, we are more likely to see immediate improvement from better coaching and the veteran free agents than from the players drafted today -- it would be a bonus if Ayers --or Smith, or McBath-- showed more than flashes as rookies, while running backs (if they are not busts) usually produce right away.

Third, as others have mentioned, we did address D-line in free agency, just not of the big name expensive variety, and we still may pick up more bodies in the next few rounds.


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not when their getting the ball rammed down their throat by every team that likes to pound the ball. You know teams like
chiefs
raiders
chargers
redskins
cowboys
ravens
steelers
giants
eagles

all of whom we happen to play next year.

If DL wasn't a priority in the draft why did xanders not address it in FA?

Last edited by anon; 04-26-2009 at 12:17 AM..
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:27 AM   #14
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Are we going to win the super bowl next season? probably not, so i can be patient with the new hypothetical linemen. Its just failed philosophy to ignore your front seven. thats my only point.
I don't think they failed to address it. I think they chose to do it at a later time because what was available was not good enough. The guys we did get are hands down improvements over the bums off the street we paraded out in the secondary and RB last year. We needed a major talent infusion and we got it at some spots of soon to be major need. We got a LB/DE in Ayers. Fixing the line properly is going to take a couple of years.

I'm so sick of the Shanahan pick six lotto approach to the draft. We needed CB's so we draft three. We need linemen so we draft three or four. In the end we missed out on better talent at other positions in the hope that we could fix one position. And we failed. Miserably. We can't just take linemen because we need them. We don't need another Moss or Crowder.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:30 AM   #15
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If DL wasn't a priority in the draft why did xanders not address it in FA?
I'll say it again.

Because there was nobody worth it. Our linemen are pedestrian. BUT! Obviously our coaches felt that everybody available was a minimal upgrade at best to what we had and therefore spent their resources upgrading other positions that not only needed upgrading but could be upgraded significantly.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:34 AM   #16
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I'll say it again.

Because there was nobody worth it. Our linemen are pedestrian. BUT! Obviously our coaches felt that everybody available was a minimal upgrade at best to what we had and therefore spent their resources upgrading other positions that not only needed upgrading but could be upgraded significantly.
That's the thing...

We took a DE high in the draft, so the question is... who did we pass on that was a definite upgrade to the potential starters we have? The staff looked at what was out there and said... let's go get some high quality guys we know we need, instead of reaching for guys that may not beat out who we have.

The ONLY player that really gives me a little pause is Brace, and that's mostly because NE took him. They're generally pretty smart on draft day.

But, as I understand it... Nolan's 3-4 is a little unique, and maybe he wasn't the right fit.

Outside of that, who was the sure thing in round two we could have had that was an obvious upgrade to our potential group of starters in the front seven?
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:46 AM   #17
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Anyone else think that scoring touchdowns is more important than field goals?

Because its all nice and and pretty to move the ball up and down the field and settle for field goals like this squad did last year. Teams knew that once we got inside the 20 that we could not line up and smash the ball in.....

in order to score we had to trick the opposition.... this offense was 17th in the league in points scored. 2nd in total yardage.

Some of you fanboys need to go back and look at the offensive scheme new england runs, i'm not talking about the passing game, i'm talking about the running game, check out how the tight end is utilized in everything from sweep, to draw, to inside crack/trap plays.

TIME OF POSSESION, it is important, and it takes pressure off of a Defense. Ask champ bailey if he would like that, if the offense could hold a lead, grind it out, punch it in............ Selvin Young was a joke, Ryan Torain was too, Hillis was/still is a thumper. This team needed a genuine big time threat to keep defenses honest. Now teams will have to keep an extra man up in the box, not lean him over to marshall. A couple of gash runs buy Moreno and they will understand.

Moreno can do it all, between the tackles, great hands, explosive, finishes runs. He will get better as the game goes on and imagine Opposing defenses facing him and hillis in the second half of games, with eddie and b-marsh and scheffler coming out with mismatches all over the field, what does the opposing safety do? stay in the box? Cover Marshall? What about play action to Moreno? What about running more screens, Moreno will be a monster at running the screen! Orton can simply make one read and audible to the best match up on the field. I'm telling you guys, you need to study McDaniels system, its all about match ups on the field, down and distance, what personnel group is in....

Our offensive line is dominant already, and now with an elite running back talent wise the sky is the limit to create favorable match ups for this entire offense. Our QB's got better with this RB, our Offensive Line knows they have a finisher and there will be more favorable match ups for the wr's and tight ends.

Alphonso Smith is going to surprise many of you, how many times last year did we get to a 3rd and long situation only to see our Defense not be able to cover? How many times did our dime package cover or get a pick? How many times did opposing offenses convert 3rd downs with ease by picking on our weakest corner or safety? the solution? get the drafts best man corner and best cover safety, these guys have MAD ball skills, they aren't great tacklers, but listen to what the coach said.........they got them for our nickel and dime packages, no more vernon fox's.......... These guys will play on passing downs!


They will play a base D on 1st and 2nd, and a pass coverage scheme on 3rd downs, Smith and McBath make our Pass Defense much better, we might actually get some interceptions! Our pass defense is much improved after today.

Why is no one talking about Ayers ability to line up inside on passing downs, did anyone watch any film on him when he lines up inside on passing downs, because our scouts did, and he is a MAJOR pass rushing threat inside when lined up over a gaurd, he will do a ton of that on 3rd and long situations, again improving our pass rush on nickel and dime packages.

I know none of you are happy with our group up front, but they are not as bad as you think, with a new scheme Ron Fields will eat up space at NT, he won't make any tackles, but he will occupy guards and centers. We have plenty of pure edge pass rushers, Dumervill, Jarvis Moss, and even Reid, inside Andre Davis can hold the point with Larsen, and DJ will be free to roam at Will. Boss Bailey can even play in Nickel as a coverage linebacker... Ayers will play many positions, sometimes lining up outside, sometimes inside, sometimes dropping in zone blitz, he is a weapon, look how new england uses adalius thomas........Ayers is a weapon that will improve the Defense in several ways.

The tight end today (QUINN) makes so much sense, the pick is essential in giving the offense the blocking threat it needed. Again, the NFL is about packages, and in 2nd and 3rd in short the offense utilizes many complex and diverse personnel groupings. One of the hardest formations to stop in short yardage is the compression formation, which utilizes 3 tight ends, usually one who is a threat to catch, one is a mix, a good pass catcher and a very capable blocker, and the other is a specialist, usually a very complete blocker.
Scheffler, Graham and now Quinn.

McDaniels also has his passing offense with one back and 3 wr's. Marshall, Royal, Stockley, even Gaffney, or any combo of the Wr's and Scheffler, this team has a full repertoire for running the spread as well. The Broncos can come out in spread, with Moreno at Tail Back, and the Wideouts spread across the field, all Orton has to do is go through his pre snap reads and then he can either audible to the run with Moreno (who is a real threat to gash Defenses) our see where the opposing safety is and exploit the mismatch in the form of Marshall, Scheffler, Royal, or Stockley.

Kyle Orton now has all the weapons and pieces to succeed in any situation, 1st down, short yardage, passing situations. This team WILL score more points, and pick up more first downs in crucial short yardage.

Alphonso Smith, McBath, and Quinn will all play special teams right away, Smith will return kicks, McBath is an excellent coverage man, and Quinn will play on field goal and punt and kick receive packages.

So go ahead and cry, cry about how much we paid to get these guys, cry about how we didn't draft jarvis moss 2.0 at 12, cry about how we didn't draft a nose tackle or a 5 technique defensive end. Trading next years one for Alphonso smith is a definite risk, but this is a team that isn't playing scared.

I give our coach a solid B, and I think alot of you are fascinated with flash and not substance....
I give him a solid F.

There's so much wrong here it would take all night to respond.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:51 AM   #18
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I give him a solid F.

There's so much wrong here it would take all night to respond.
Again, Mayock is probably the most respected draft analyst out there. We landed his #3 and #4 OVERALL players in the first round.

That alone puts us way above an F, even if we biffed the other picks.

But, we didn't. People will just struggle to understand them until they see the team come together. Blocking TEs and safeties aren't sexy picks. But, they're necessary to building a solid foundation, which we haven't had in years.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:54 AM   #19
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SOLL,

Did you check out the link on the other thread about Fields? Don't count him out as a possible nice contributor at NT.

So, in the off-season we've added...

-Ayers, potentially the top DE and top defender in this draft
-Fields, a solid young player thought to have some good upside at NT.
-Reid, another young, solid DE with some experience.
-Andra Davis, a vet known to be very solid against the run.
-Re-signed Peterson, a guy who played well last year and can play 3-4 DE with no problem.

We'll also be moving Elvis and Thomas to spots where I personally think they'll be much more productive.

Again, Powell is also like a free draft pick this year. He was regarded as one of the best run-stuffers to come out last season.

So, I wouldn't say we've "done nothing" to address the weaknesses in the front seven. Yes, I would have liked to see some kind of slam-dunk stud linebacker be available for us, but it appears there weren't many, if any.
That is what I was thinking. We already added some players that could help in the run defense in free agents. Andra Davis was a good pickup for inside, already had Larsen and DJ as solid tacklers, Dawkins is still a good tackler at SS, Moss isn't much of a pass rusher, but he holds the point of attack well so that means he can play 3-4 DE. So we didn't need too many interior front seven players. Ayers was enough, hopefully. I'm making the most of this obviously.

Acquiring playmakers with Al Smith and McBath was a good move, this D needs to generate turnovers. Turnover differential is one ofc the most important stats in the win column.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:55 AM   #20
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It's as if everybody expects four stud linemen in the first two rounds when it's questionable if there will even be four stud linemen in the entire draft when all is said and done.

A line like that, almost impossible to build, can take years to develop. And yet people want to do it all in one draft and in the weakest DL draft in years to boot.

We have to take what we can get and be happy that we are getting significant upgrades. Or we can what's his face Calvin Lowry and the like on the phone and they can come back. It sure was fun watching them out there every week...
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:59 AM   #21
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Again, Mayock is probably the most respected draft analyst out there. We landed his #3 and #4 OVERALL players in the first round.

That alone puts us way above an F, even if we biffed the other picks.
I heard Mayock's explanation on Ayers and I was not impressed. He's to small for the 3-4, to slow for OLB. He's got very poor combine numbers, and his production over his career was nothing special. Some think he's lazy and unmotivated. Is he a pass rusher? No...9 sacks in 48 game...big deal. What's he going to play in this D? He's a poor fit. I don't care if Moreno's a top player or not, this defense is horrific and got almost zero help.
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But, we didn't. People will just struggle to understand them until they see the team come together. Blocking TEs and safeties aren't sexy picks. But, they're necessary to building a solid foundation, which we haven't had in years.
We have a blocking TE...you might have heard of him? Daniel Graham? The NFL's best? Even if we needed this guy, which we didn't, we could have had him FAR cheaper.

This drafted blew chunks.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:01 AM   #22
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Hey douchbags, no one is really complaing about the first round picks. The problem is what we gave up for our 2nd round picks and how they absolutely failed to address any of our key needs.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:16 AM   #23
TheChamp24
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I'm not complaining about the 1st round picks, but the 2nd round picks, and all we gave up for them.
A top 10, top 15 pick next year for a small CB?
2 3rd's to move up to get a blocking TE who has caught less passes in his entire career than Graham caught last year?

I actually don't mind the pick of Mcbath, we do need a safety pick.

Say all you want about a weak DL class, but we need to add depth.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:23 AM   #24
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Wow Wolf. I have to say that was impressive
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:35 AM   #25
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There are some defensive players from last year I just flat out don't like. But I have to remind myself every day that they had possibly the worst DC in Broncos history calling the shots out there. It was really obvious in many situations that players were not in the position to make plays based on the defensive play called. I mean, how many times did we see the 15 yard cushion? I almost felt like we were in a "prevent" defense 75% of the time. We all know we needed to upgrade the defense with some new talent but I think we cannot under value the atrociously bad defensive calls and equally bad weekly atrocious defensive practices. Who here really believes that any of our defensive players had an environment last year in which they could have improved their play from a coaching standpoint? And if we're gonna be real honest, Shanny deciding to retain Slowik was probably a huge reason why he ultimately got the axe himself. I think even Bowlen himself saw how bad of a coach Slowik was and knew this guy had to go. So giving Nolan and crew 1 year to see what some of these guy can do I think is not a bad thing really. Alot of the dead weight long time underachieving players have already been cut so I'm actually sorta curious if some of these other guys can actually improve under a better DC and get on the field, and be put in good positions to make some plays out there.


Yeah yeah, I know this was a thread about the Redzone but I felt it was kinda going this way...........lol
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