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Old 04-21-2009, 10:19 PM   #1
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Default Carlton Powell vs. Tyson Jackson?

Lots of interest in here for Tyson Jackson if he's there at #12. Setting aside the fact that the weakness in this draft's D-line talent might be artificially inflating this guy's true worth, there's another thing to consider.

We have Marcus Thomas pencilled in as one DE starter, and most believe he's got first round talent even though he slid to the 4th when we got him. But what about Carlton Powell? Here's a guy with some promise that a lot of people think can be a run stuffing DE due to his freakish college record stopping opposing runners on the ground. If this is correct, we might already have two 300 pound DE candidates capable of handling the starting roles. Unfortunately, since he sat out the year on IR we don't know yet what he can do at this level. Assuming he competes for the DE spot opposite Thomas, here's the question...

Assuming he dropped to #12, should we even spend a #1 on Jackson when Powell might be a solid starter and we don't know it yet? Or would you rather look to fill other holes on the D with that pick?
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:26 PM   #2
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I see nothing wrong with having 3 300 pound DEs. It would be a very good and welcomed change from last year.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:28 PM   #3
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Assuming Powell is decent, what about after him and Thomas? Who do we have?
Depth of good players on the DL is a strength, not a bad thing.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:31 PM   #4
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Jackson is a proven 3-4 DE, we really don't have any except for maybe Peterson
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:32 PM   #5
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Also if we get a starter at NT in the draft then Fields can play DE like he did in SF.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:34 PM   #6
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I really like what I read about Powell but we obviously have no idea if it'll translate to the NFL.

I think Jackson is my favorite pick, at this point. (for 12) If he's there, I think he's a guy who could step right in and play. The guy looks like an NFL player, already. Size-wise, he looks more developed than other guys... and obviously shows his athleticism on the field.

In the 3-4, he doesn't need to be an elite pass-rusher. (He's not.) But, he won't get pushed around. He's played against good talent in school and just looks like a pro, to me.

I do think we may have a nice 3-4 sleeper DE in Thomas and/or Powell, but we shouldn't pass up on Jackson if he's there.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:35 PM   #7
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Here's a game by game breakdown on Jackson's last season at LSU and some scouting comments: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/518155

I'm not that impressed with him based on what I've been reading on this guy. He doesn't seem like a first round pick, let alone a top 10 guy. He had a considerable size advantage over his opponent in many of these games and was not that productive. I know stats for D-line guys are decieving but his overall analysis and combine results are suspect. He's 300 pounds and he repped a 20 in the BP? That's pretty poor for a lineman. I don't see the attraction here for a guy sesen as a top 10 pick.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:36 PM   #8
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i still think we should take him. if the Giants have shown anything, it is you can never have enough good DL players.

also, considering we will be using a rotation keeping everyone on the line at playing only about 50% of the snaps, it makes sense to have a solid backup group of lineman behind the starters.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jth1331 View Post
Assuming Powell is decent, what about after him and Thomas? Who do we have?
Depth of good players on the DL is a strength, not a bad thing.
True...but normally you don't spend the 12th pick in the draft on a guy who is depth. What strikes me is that the expectations for this guy and Powell seem reversed if you just look at their production in college.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:39 PM   #10
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Here's a game by game breakdown on Jackson's last season at LSU and some scouting comments: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/518155

I'm not that impressed with him based on what I've been reading on this guy. He doesn't seem like a first round pick, let alone a top 10 guy. He had a considerable size advantage over his opponent in many of these games and was not that productive. I know stats for D-line guys are decieving but his overall analysis and combine results are suspect. He's 300 pounds and he repped a 20 in the BP? That's pretty poor for a lineman. I don't see the attraction here for a guy sesen as a top 10 pick.
He seems to be more of a leverage guy than a brute strength guy. He's just built big, with long arms and a lot of bulk.

The only thing that worries me a bit is that there have been some questions regarding his overall effort on the field. That's a very common scouting report negative for linemen, but still worth noting.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:42 PM   #11
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tyson jackson doesn't get pushed around, he stalemates people, he holds the line, he frees up backers, protects the edge................you know, good fundamental run defense...........

footsteps is funny, you sir are looking for flash...............

give me substance......and lots of it...
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:46 PM   #12
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I say load up the defense. Particularly the front seven. Then let the chips fall where they may.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:10 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by wolf754life View Post
tyson jackson doesn't get pushed around, he stalemates people, he holds the line, he frees up backers, protects the edge................you know, good fundamental run defense...........

footsteps is funny, you sir are looking for flash...............

give me substance......and lots of it...
I'm not sure what you mean by flash, but here's something of substance to consider. Line up Carlton Powell's scouting report next to that of Jackson's and when you finish reading them you'll wonder if they got mixed up. Powell looks like the first rounder and Jackson the 5th rounder. I'm not seeing anything in Jackson that I can't live without. He looks like just another guy, albeit...one capable of playing the 3-4 DE spot in a year when the talent is thin there. Powell, by contrast, was a top 10 ranked DT in a year with a strong D-line draft.

If Shanny's draft issues taught us anything, it should be that reaching for guys in the first round is a bad idea. We reached for Moss...reached for Foster...Middlebrooks...why do I bring this up in the current regime? Because as I understand the scouting department...not the FO decision guys but the actual scouts watching players...they're the same guys we've had there in the past. This is at least an issue to consider when wondering how we're likely to fare with player evaluations on D-line guys at the top of the draft.

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Old 04-21-2009, 11:35 PM   #14
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To be honest I see Powell as a NT for us and competing with Ron Fields more than I see him as a DE. We want a run stuffer who holds his ground and takes up multiple gaps at NT, and that seems to be what Powell excels at.

I wouldn't mind drafting two 3-4 DE's in this draft... namely Jackson and Jerron Gilbert.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:39 PM   #15
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To be honest I see Powell as a NT for us and competing with Ron Fields more than I see him as a DE. We want a run stuffer who holds his ground and takes up multiple gaps at NT, and that seems to be what Powell excels at.

I wouldn't mind drafting two 3-4 DE's in this draft... namely Jackson and Jerron Gilbert.
Powell's about 305. He'd need to put on some serious weight, don't you think?
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:46 PM   #16
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Just because a guy weighs in the 290-310 lb range mean they can play DE in a 3-4. Their skillset has to be capable of playing in the 1 gap or 2 gap scheme depending on what the team is going to run.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:46 PM   #17
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If Raji doesnt fall to twelve......then I have no problem waiting to draft a couple of big uglies in the mid rounds. Im on the fence with Tyson Jackson. I think he would fill the spot from day one... but nothing all pro that warrants a #12 pick. Rather we go safety, LB,or even RB with the first 2 picks.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:53 PM   #18
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.... On second thought... Im not so sure were we stand on depth. I no Engleberger is gone (thankfully), how about Ekuban... is he still on the roster? Last I remember he was visiting the Faiders during free agency.

T. Jackson might have to be the pick.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Jackson is a proven 3-4 DE, we really don't have any except for maybe Peterson


Is he really a proven 3-4 DE? Jackson is being projected from college DT to NFL 3-4 DE, he's not a proven commodity at all...he could just as easily bust.

I'm not against picking him, but don't use the logic that we need him because he's a proven 3-4DE...come September, he can bust just the same as any of the other rookies. No one is a proven player in the NFL yet.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Lots of interest in here for Tyson Jackson if he's there at #12. Setting aside the fact that the weakness in this draft's D-line talent might be artificially inflating this guy's true worth, there's another thing to consider.

We have Marcus Thomas pencilled in as one DE starter, and most believe he's got first round talent even though he slid to the 4th when we got him. But what about Carlton Powell? Here's a guy with some promise that a lot of people think can be a run stuffing DE due to his freakish college record stopping opposing runners on the ground. If this is correct, we might already have two 300 pound DE candidates capable of handling the starting roles. Unfortunately, since he sat out the year on IR we don't know yet what he can do at this level. Assuming he competes for the DE spot opposite Thomas, here's the question...

Assuming he dropped to #12, should we even spend a #1 on Jackson when Powell might be a solid starter and we don't know it yet? Or would you rather look to fill other holes on the D with that pick?
This is a good question and it can also be applied to linebacker where we have Dumervile/Moss/Crowder as candidates to play rush LB and then Larsen possibly on the inside. I think they may look at it like having another good DL is not overkill. 1) Theyll rotate players and 2) they might look at drafting a guy as hedging their bets. At the same time what youve identified might give them the flexibility to take a different position. When you look at a lot of FA signings, a lot of them were good but not great but at the same time they will be guys who create competition.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
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I really like what I read about Powell but we obviously have no idea if it'll translate to the NFL.

I think Jackson is my favorite pick, at this point. (for 12) If he's there, I think he's a guy who could step right in and play. The guy looks like an NFL player, already. Size-wise, he looks more developed than other guys... and obviously shows his athleticism on the field.

In the 3-4, he doesn't need to be an elite pass-rusher. (He's not.) But, he won't get pushed around. He's played against good talent in school and just looks like a pro, to me.
or some toehr decent NT
I do think we may have a nice 3-4 sleeper DE in Thomas and/or Powell, but we shouldn't pass up on Jackson if he's there.
I like Jackson too, If Raji or Orakpo doesn't somehow drop in our lap. I also think this is the year Thomas really dominates as he is meant for this role and hes no longer in the musical chairs defense of the past two years and has had a coup0le yeeras now to mature as a Dlineman.

Powell too could be a stud. His work this is reportedly top flight and he has a constant motor and can both disruptive in the backfield but is killer at stopping the run.

If Raji isn't there at 12 which is unlikely I can see going for OLB/DE type the first two picks and then go for Brace, or some other potential decent 3-4 NT in the second or third round.

Assuming that is that Sanchez didn't perform like the second coming at his private work out and/or that a RB isn't in the mix on day one.

Frankly I think a number of our existing younger guys are going to look a lot better this year than the past two with more time in the league, more consistency and better coaching all around.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:29 AM   #22
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Heres some footage of Powell in college. He makes a lot of plays off of two blocks. Not sure that spin move will be that effective though.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/video/nfl-dr...Highlights-407
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:53 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Lots of interest in here for Tyson Jackson if he's there at #12. Setting aside the fact that the weakness in this draft's D-line talent might be artificially inflating this guy's true worth, there's another thing to consider.

We have Marcus Thomas pencilled in as one DE starter, and most believe he's got first round talent even though he slid to the 4th when we got him. But what about Carlton Powell? Here's a guy with some promise that a lot of people think can be a run stuffing DE due to his freakish college record stopping opposing runners on the ground. If this is correct, we might already have two 300 pound DE candidates capable of handling the starting roles. Unfortunately, since he sat out the year on IR we don't know yet what he can do at this level. Assuming he competes for the DE spot opposite Thomas, here's the question...

Assuming he dropped to #12, should we even spend a #1 on Jackson when Powell might be a solid starter and we don't know it yet? Or would you rather look to fill other holes on the D with that pick?

it's risky to put our primary hopes on a young player fresh from IR and a young 4-3 DT in which neither have played at the pro level as a 3-4 end...

if Jackson is available, i say add him to the mix...we will need to rotate linemen anyway...
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:02 AM   #24
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But what about Carlton Powell?
More than likely he got drafted in the 5th round for a reason. If he turns into a solid contributor great but you don't pass up top tier D-line talent in this draft expecting 5th round talent to come back from an Achilles and be a starter for you.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:10 AM   #25
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Personally, I wouldn't find having three competent DEs a problem. We don't even know if we have one, yet.
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