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Old 04-14-2009, 08:10 PM   #1
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Default 10 years later, the real story behind Columbine

Full article here :


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...?se=yahoorefer


some excerpts:

They weren't goths or loners.
The two teenagers who killed 13 people and themselves at suburban Denver's Columbine High School 10 years ago next week weren't in the "Trenchcoat Mafia," disaffected videogamers who wore cowboy dusters. The killings ignited a national debate over bullying, but the record now shows Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold hadn't been bullied in fact, they had bragged in diaries about picking on freshmen and "fags."



In fact, the pair's suicidal attack was planned as a grand if badly implemented terrorist bombing that quickly devolved into a 49-minute shooting rampage when the bombs Harris built fizzled.

"He was so bad at wiring those bombs, apparently they weren't even close to working," says Dave Cullen, author of Columbine, a new account of the attack.

So whom did they hope to kill?

Everyone including friends.



Along the way, they saved money from after-school jobs, took Advanced Placement classes, assembled a small arsenal and fooled everyone friends, parents, teachers, psychologists, cops and judges.

"These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation," psychologist Peter Langman writes in his new book, Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters. "These are not ordinary kids who played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids. These are kids with serious psychological problems."




Harris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.

Harris, a senior, read voraciously and got good grades when he tried, pleasing his teachers with dazzling prose then writing in his journal about killing thousands.

"I referred to him and I'm dating myself as the Eddie Haskel of Columbine High School," says Principal Frank DeAngelis, referring to the deceptively polite teen on the 1950s and '60s sitcom Leave it to Beaver. "He was the type of kid who, when he was in front of adults, he'd tell you what you wanted to hear."

When he wasn't, he mixed napalm in the kitchen .




The Secret Service found that school shooters usually tell other kids about their plans.

"Other students often even egg them on," says Newman, who led a congressionally mandated study on school shootings. "Then they end up with this escalating commitment. It's not a sudden snapping."

Langman, whose book profiles 10 shooters, including Harris and Klebold, found that nine suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts, a "potentially dangerous" combination, he says. "It is hard to prevent murder when killers do not care if they live or die. It is like trying to stop a suicide bomber."

At the time, Columbine became a kind of giant national Rorschach test. Observers saw its genesis in just about everything: lax parenting, lax gun laws, progressive schooling, repressive school culture, violent video games, antidepressant drugs and rock 'n' roll, for starters.

Many of the Columbine myths emerged before the shooting stopped, as rumors, misunderstandings and wishful thinking swirled in an echo chamber among witnesses, survivors, officials and the news media.

Police contributed to the mess by talking to reporters before they knew facts a hastily called news conference by the Jefferson County sheriff that afternoon produced the first headline: "Twenty-five dead in Colorado."

A few inaccuracies took hours to clear up, but others took weeks or months sometimes years as authorities reluctantly set the record straight.


Since 1999, many people have looked to the boys' parents for answers, but a transcript of their 2003 court-ordered deposition to the victims' parents remains sealed until 2027.

The Klebolds spoke to New York Times columnist David Brooks in 2004 and impressed Brooks as "a well-educated, reflective, highly intelligent couple" who spent plenty of time with their son. They said they had no clues about Dylan's mental state and regretted not seeing that he was suicidal.

Could the parents have prevented the massacre? The FBI special agent in charge of the investigation has gone on record as having "the utmost sympathy" for the Harris and Klebold families.

"They have been vilified without information," retired supervisory special agent Dwayne Fuselier tells Cullen.

Cullen, who has spent most of the past decade poring over the record, comes away with a bit of sympathy.

For one thing, he notes, Harris' parents "knew they had a problem they thought they were dealing with it. What kind of parent is going to think, 'Well, maybe Eric's a mass murderer.' You just don't go there."

He got a good look at the boys' writings only in the past couple of years. Among the revelations: Eric Harris was financing what could well have been the biggest domestic terrorist attack on U.S. soil on wages from a part-time job at a pizza parlor.

"One of the scary things is that money was one of the limiting factors here," Cullen says.














Wow. From what I gathered, they were basically planning a terrorist attack on a major scale. Didn't realize how much worse it could have been.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:31 PM   #2
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And one of the scariest parts for me, is the section regarding the parents.

I have no kids (yet), but couldn't even imagine how horrible it would feel to know that your child was a murdering psycopath. The harris' parents had no idea, and the cleibold parents were trying to work through the problems.

It's a scary thought, not being able to reach your own child...not even KNOWING there was a problem, until it's too late.

Obviously my thoughts and prayers have gone and continue to go out to everyone involved.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:41 PM   #3
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as for the parents...

I just don't understand how you could raise a sociopath and not know something was wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me, then again my kids are 5 & 7.

Sad story all around...
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:46 PM   #4
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Blame Marilyn Manson, take the easy way out.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TheDave View Post
as for the parents...

I just don't understand how you could raise a sociopath and not know something was wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me, then again my kids are 5 & 7.

Sad story all around...

That's what I'm talkin about.

Klebold's parents obviously had some warning signs, but Harris's parents seemed like (according to the reports) didn't have any idea. I wonder the same thing...HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW!!!! But, that kid was a sociopath , and apparently an amazing actor. Scary for parents all around. I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of character, but there have always been people that become inherently different from my initial observations.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:52 PM   #6
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That's what I'm talkin about.

Klebold's parents obviously had some warning signs, but Harris's parents seemed like (according to the reports) didn't have any idea. I wonder the same thing...HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW!!!! But, that kid was a psycopath, and apparently an amazing actor. Scary for parents all around. I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of character, but there have always been people that become inherently different from my initial observations.
I've always thought the same thing... Then about a year ago i was completely blind sided by a CPA that was in the process of stealing millions from the company i was working with. Totally different situation than a parent child relationship, but to this day i am shocked that i did not see farther around the bend.

I suppose that as a parent you could easily find yourself seeing the good and ignoring the bad in your kid. But this act was plotted and planned for over the course of years... how could you not see a red flag or two along the way.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:59 PM   #7
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This is tough stuff for me to read. I didn't even realize we were coming up on the 10th anniversary.

I graduated from Columbine the year before the shootings and was still living at home going to college my freshman year. Obviously, that was one of the worst days of my life and for that community. I can still remember vividly waiting with my best friend at our old elementary school for hours upon hours as his sister was trapped in the school.

As for the revelation that they weren't in the trenchcoat mafia, I guess I always assumed they were, but it doesn't really matter. This article stating that these two kids were deeply disturbed is in no way a revelation, though, and don't think there is much value in trying to learn from their actions in an attempt to prevent occurances like this in the future. I mean, how can you predict the actions of a psychopath?

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Old 04-14-2009, 09:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by TheDave View Post
I've always thought the same thing... Then about a year ago i was completely blind sided by a CPA that was in the process of stealing millions from the company i was working with. Totally different situation than a parent child relationship, but to this day i am shocked that i did not see farther around the bend.

I suppose that as a parent you could easily find yourself seeing the good and ignoring the bad in your kid. But this act was plotted and planned for over the course of years... how could you not see a red flag or two along the way.
Difference is that you don't need to sit down on a bed or couch with the CPA and ask how things are in his life, sure you were shocked that this guy was putting on a front while he was a real slimebag, but you couldn't have had a sit-down serious talk with the guy along with the instinctive love and caring emotion for him to see him through everything that he is going through.

I have a 5 year old(not actually mine, just raising him as mine) and he's only in kindergarten but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't ask him how school went and how his friends are and such, just normal everyday talks lets him know he always has someone who will always be there for him.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:02 PM   #9
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Difference is that you don't need to sit down on a bed or couch with the CPA and ask how things are in his life, sure you were shocked that this guy was putting on a front while he was a real slimebag, but you couldn't have had a sit-down serious talk with the guy along with the instinctive love and caring emotion for him to see him through everything that he is going through.

I have a 5 year old(not actually mine, just raising him as mine) and he's only in kindergarten but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't ask him how school went and how his friends are and such, just normal everyday talks lets him know he always has someone who will always be there for him.
100% agree...
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:06 PM   #10
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as for the parents...

I just don't understand how you could raise a sociopath and not know something was wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me, then again my kids are 5 & 7.

Sad story all around...

They didn't notice stuff in garage or anything lying around the house. 98% of kids aren't neat. Then when parents were called into school they saw no red flag on paper he wrote.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:11 PM   #11
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That's what I'm talkin about.

Klebold's parents obviously had some warning signs, but Harris's parents seemed like (according to the reports) didn't have any idea. I wonder the same thing...HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW!!!! But, that kid was a sociopath , and apparently an amazing actor. Scary for parents all around. I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of character, but there have always been people that become inherently different from my initial observations.
I worked for an extended period of time in adolescent psychiatry while I was in grad school and for several years after that in the mid-90's. I encountered numerous kids who were sociopaths and had what for all intents and purposes we would call normal parents. In many cases these kids were brilliant liars and their parents were unaware of the extent of their problems. In a lot of cases they were told they were the problem by the idiot shrinks "treating" these kids with drugs. It takes being around sociopathic personalities for an extended period of time and observing them as I was able to do during that time to recognize some of this stuff. I don't blame the parents.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:22 PM   #12
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Easier to blame other things. No one likes to think teenagers are capable of evil on their own.


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Old 04-14-2009, 09:24 PM   #13
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As Chris Rock once said...."whatever happened to crazy!"
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:40 PM   #14
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I've always thought the same thing... Then about a year ago i was completely blind sided by a CPA that was in the process of stealing millions from the company i was working with. Totally different situation than a parent child relationship, but to this day i am shocked that i did not see farther around the bend.

I suppose that as a parent you could easily find yourself seeing the good and ignoring the bad in your kid. But this act was plotted and planned for over the course of years... how could you not see a red flag or two along the way.
As I have shared before on here I am a fairly well traveled person with some living on the street experience and for some reason people tell me their story well I am here to tell ya there are some scary Joses' out there that seem very normal but that is far far from what they really are and it is always a surprise when the truth comes out. I used to hitch hike back in the 70's and hitched across the country twice. I got a ride in Northern California by a guy who at first seemed like a good old local area boy that was friendly enough. We talking back and forth with some small talk when all of a sudden he picks up a Bowie knife from beside a center console add on and points it at my neck and says I could kill you right now and nobody would ever know. Naturally it scared the crap out of me but I managed to play in cool and just sort of joked it off. Well I guess he decided I was al right and thats when He started to tell me his sicking story. He told me he was child molester, he went on to say that nobody understood but those children really loved him and he loved them. That went on for a short time than all of a sudden he stopped talking and got a very dark look on his face and I knew he was thinking about trying to kill me. All I could think to do was to look him in the eye and say I wanted out of the car and just kept my eyes burning into his head. i got lucky he we were coming up on a small town and i said, "Drop me at that gas station?.He did and that were the last words ever spoken and he drove away. I didn't get the license plate # put it was a beat up old Chevy truck. I know I came within a whisper of a serious confrontation. I told the guy at the gas station about the guy and he said he saw that truck around from time to time and he would call the cops. Moral of the story for me, Do not assume people think anything like you do. As an older person I can say nothing surprises me any more.

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Old 04-14-2009, 09:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Harris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.
This reads like Harris was Lord Voldemort.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:58 PM   #16
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Difference is that you don't need to sit down on a bed or couch with the CPA and ask how things are in his life, sure you were shocked that this guy was putting on a front while he was a real slimebag, but you couldn't have had a sit-down serious talk with the guy along with the instinctive love and caring emotion for him to see him through everything that he is going through.

I have a 5 year old(not actually mine, just raising him as mine) and he's only in kindergarten but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't ask him how school went and how his friends are and such, just normal everyday talks lets him know he always has someone who will always be there for him.
While I agree completely, that last part is exactly what I'm trying to describe. You sit your 5 year old down everyday, ask him how his friends are, how his day was...things that I think are an integral part of human development. Daliy interaction, love...but the scary part to me is that even WITH all of that positive attention, there is a possiblity that (through no fault of your own), the child could have deep rooted psychological problems that he/she hides.

Obviously, I plan on having children someday, CANT WAIT!!!(well, I can't wait!, but i can wait haha), but it's knowledge like this that just gets the gears turning in my head about parenthood, the unexpected in life, etc etc. I don't think any of it should be used as an excuse to NOT have kids, but I seriously ponder the things I'm going to teach my own someday, and the hope I reserve that everything I do will help them to become happy and healthy in life.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:03 PM   #17
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I worked for an extended period of time in adolescent psychiatry while I was in grad school and for several years after that in the mid-90's. I encountered numerous kids who were sociopaths and had what for all intents and purposes we would call normal parents. In many cases these kids were brilliant liars and their parents were unaware of the extent of their problems. In a lot of cases they were told they were the problem by the idiot shrinks "treating" these kids with drugs. It takes being around sociopathic personalities for an extended period of time and observing them as I was able to do during that time to recognize some of this stuff. I don't blame the parents.
well said.


Is that still the case? The treatment protocol by the shrinks I mean...drugging them up after blaming them for the problems? That just seems completely assinine to me! But, it begs the question...what kind of treatment can you give a true sociopath? Did you ever see positive results, a remission of the sociopathic tendencies if you will?
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:31 PM   #18
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I worked at a pizza place near Columbine for a couple years before the shootings, and I worked with a bunch of kids that went to Columbine. The "Trenchcoat Mafia" was a sarcastic name given to a group of loner type Goth kids by the more "normal" popular kids. I'll never forget talking on the phone to one of my buddies while watching the news and sarcastically saying I wonder if the "Trenchcoat Mafia" is behind this. When it was rumored that Harris and Kliebold were supposedly from that group of kids I was shocked. Those kids were not the types to do something like that. They were just kids that were expressing themselves in a different way than what was popular. Harris and Kliebold were ****ing nuts. I am glad to hear that they have disassociated these nutjobs from the "Trenchcoat Mafia".
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:06 AM   #19
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I'm sorry but that article IMHO comes across as a promotion for a couple of "new account of the attack" books. After reading it I found a very well made documentary on the tragedy while browsing youtube. Seems to me that there was definitely bullying involved, at least according to first hand witnesses, and if they weren't a part of the "Trenchcoat Mafia" they certainly had an affinity for cowboy dusters.

Anyway, here are the youtube links to the documentary:

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BMx3BXuFI
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3v-l...eature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4f6O...eature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP1nl...eature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXWCj...eature=related
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:25 AM   #20
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It's hard to fathom that it has been 10 years. Time sure flies.
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:32 AM   #21
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And people underestimate the threat of underground terrorism from a domestic source. I fear them more than I do radical Muslims.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:51 AM   #22
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It's hard to fathom that it has been 10 years. Time sure flies.
Yeah seriously. I was only in 5th grade when it happened and I can still remember our Elementary school being locked down for a couple hours. Luckily they were able to rebuild and heal...more or less and by the time I graduated from there in '06 you couldn't tell anything odd in the least bit had happened there at all.
Great read, hard to read, but great none the less.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:26 AM   #23
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well said.


Is that still the case? The treatment protocol by the shrinks I mean...drugging them up after blaming them for the problems?
Psychotropic drugs are the treatment of choice for virtually any mental health admission, adult or adolescent, regardless of the diagnosis. Shrinks set the treatment agenda in the mental health system and therapy is mixed into the treatment plan mainly because patients and their parents expect it. "Blame" is not the word they use but it's what happens. Responsibility for adolescent problems is assigned to the kid's environment (the family) which places the burden on the parents. This is probably most often the case...but it's also the default judgement before any real proof of that exists, which is the problem i have with it. Parents are held responsible and the kids are drugged. This slick little system maximizes profits to the health care providers. It keeps the parents feeling guilty and the kids on meds...managed care costs for inpatient psych treatment in Texas runs $1000-1500 a day and most of that is pure profit
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That just seems completely assinine to me! But, it begs the question...what kind of treatment can you give a true sociopath? Did you ever see positive results, a remission of the sociopathic tendencies if you will?
That depends on what you mean by "results" or "remission". Pschiatric problems are not "cured" by the system's treatment regimen of incarceration, drugs and therapy. They're merely controlled or managed to the extent that behavior is modified. Behavior modification is the most frequent goal because it's how insurance providers define success and what they're willing to pay for is based on those "results". I've never really seen sociopathic personalities suddenly develop "conscience", which is what I'd classify as remission, if that's what you mean. Mostly they merely get smarter about manipulating the system or the people they're in contact with through the system.

True sociopaths were pretty rare in the private system...maybe 1% of the adolescents I saw might qualify as being considered for that. Even gang bangers would usually exhibit some evidence of remorse for things if they were separated from peers in the gang. None of that happens as a result of meds or therapy however. The system has no real answer for this problem.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:35 PM   #24
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And people underestimate the threat of underground terrorism from a domestic source. I fear them more than I do radical Muslims.

Oh yeah...so many examples of domestic terrorism...


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Old 04-15-2009, 11:34 PM   #25
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Oh yeah...so many examples of domestic terrorism...http://www.cfr.org/publication/9236/
Just thought that I would help you finish your post.

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